Trelja - there is really no need to defend yourself against the naysayers. You are honest and heartfelt and, above all, reasonable in your observations. Your fairness should serve as a model for all who frequent this site. The criticisms you make are not about taste. Plainly, people need to realize that so much of the gear is hyped and should never see the light of day. Instead of a cornucopia of wonderful sounding-equipment (which I yearn for when attending audio-shows), I ALWAYS come away feeling duped and cheated. I have few brand-allegiances, nor do I like to "trash" various manufacturers, but on no account am I willing to tolerate high-ticket or highly advertised components which are just mediocre-sounding. Hopefully, this wonderful forum will engender a more critical attitude about what really constitutes good equipment and help to purge this otherwise great hobby of the detritus that some are unwilling to acknowledge. |
Thanks Trelja for starting this. I came away with a little different impressions. As my mother does not celebrate anything anymore I spent all 3 days at the Hilton.
My take on the TAS room was that the sound was decent and the presentation well run. But together with some other rooms are addressed to Bill Gates and family. It is usefull to listen to the state of the art but I am more interested in things that I can hope to acquire some day. In this same league I would place the mbl system that occupies half the surface of a typical living room. However it sounded very nice especially given the constraints of the small hotel unit. I was not impressed by Egglestone and in the past I have liked their Andras. I think that Egglestone the person is not connected with the company anymore. The Airfoil hybrid is intriguing but with serious appearance problems ( and I have no spouse to contend with). In the cost no object level Lamm monoblocks and Utopias sounded impressive. Vandersteen lacked some magic. Spectral MIT Wilson : the bass was simply too much for that small room. Sonus Faber Amati hommage next door sounded more delicate. I, also agree with the reservations of others regarding Red Rose (they did feature SACD and a middle aged New Yorker salesman with regulation pony tail though). The Europeans who featured VAIC tube amplification with Ultimate Line (? not sure about the exact name) speakers produced superb results (speakers for $38000 featuring a tweeter made of diamond plasma). Cds were playing through the complete dcS chain. I enjoyed a lot the downstairs space of Headroom where one could check virtually every headphone under the audiophile sun starting from Grado sr60s to Sennheiser Orpheus . Included were Stax and every specialized amplifier. I ended up investing in a pair of Beyerdynamic 931 and the Wheatfield tube unit. I also liked the Grado amplifier.
Any opinions on the Tact? I think they are into something and both presenters were extremely were informed and pleasant. Their room compensation method works as it was easily demonstrated (on the other hand perpetual technologies was a disappointment; they played through Martin Logans that I never liked anyway and in a A to B comparison the sound was different but I would not say better with the compensation). Excellent sound I found in both AudioPhysic rooms both driven by tubes . The smaller Spark speakers were combined with Rogue Audio. The larger AvantiIII with Hovland. My vote for the best sound was this system fed analogue by Immedia and Lyra Helikon. Very pleasantly surprised I was when I discovered tucked at the end of 2nd floor Roman Audio (based in Texas and not in Italy). They featured a speaker they call Centurion that is a reworking of the drivers inside the Cabasse Farella. As noted already the crossover employs the diaural system of Kimber. This $5400 system sang in a pure Krell room and for my ears was better than the Krell LATs speakers upstairs ($10000). I concurr with the positive things said about Legend. In the large Linn room the CD12 sounded better than the LP12 combo but my judgment could be affected by the frisson of sitting next to Mike Fremmer.
In the category of entertaining Europeans Lars from Nordost gave a convincing presentation of the importance of cables with quick switches of interconnects. I would like to audition the Valhallas again. Music played was not audiophile crap but Cream, Doors and Led Zeppelin.
My overall impression was that the show was a great success and 2 channell is alive and well. But hey,if your cup of tea is home theater with Avantgarde or JM Labs their reps will be very happy to sell you some. |
Hi Trelja: Nice report, I think, and too bad that the overall sound was not better as this should be what the show is all about. Better luck next time. I am not surprised by your comments at all when I think about all of the audio showrooms that I have visited over the years with good gear, but mediocre sound. These guys spent 50+ hours a week in their shops and never got it right as it could have been. It is however difficult to throw together a system in a short amount of time (in a new room) and get it down pat. We all know this as well as that it is the many small things that add up to make a significant improvement overall. We spend months and even years doing to our systems what the reps are trying to accomplish in a very short time frame. The people that did get great sound though are either extremely lucky or gifted or perhaps a combination of both. |
Charlie, please forgive me for not answering your question. In terms of room treatment, I don't feel capable of giving you a very accurate number. I will leave it to the concensus of all that were there. On my end, can I venture a guess that it seemed to be a little less than half? Some companies did very little, just a piece or two or whatever. It did seem to me that the companies who were in the bigger rooms, on the 2nd and 4th floors, used a lot more room treatment. Are my feelings based on the fact that they had more room, or I am just dreaming? We keep going back to the Roman Audio room, for good reason. They seemed to really put a lot into room treatment. These guys, despite being not well know, really looked to have their act together. Excellent sound. I was most impressed. As I previously stated, I never heard their equipment before, but would like to hear more in the future. And, enjoy the Creek. Take pride in the fact that you can make it sound so good. It does have the potential. Sqjudge, thank you so much for your perspective on what a very dilligent company puts into the show. And no, I did not take notes. Everything in this thread is straight off the top of my head. I thought about taking notes next year. Only for the fact that there is so much that I was not able to retain. Someone mentioning something does jar it from my memory effectively. I doubt I will take notes in the future. My feelings about notes is that they would rob my spontaneity, enjoyment of the show, and make me look like someone from the press. As it was, I was just like everyone else there. One thing I do want to say is that I had a great time. This is one of my favorite hobbies in life, and I welcome the opportunity to participate in it on many levels. Sure, there was bad sound there. But, there was a lot of good sound too. I do hope I conveyed strongly my appreciation for the companies/rooms I liked. I got to hear a lot of great music, see a lot of equipment, meet people, and gauge the general health of our hobby(which seems to be thriving). Isn't that what it's all about? |
One more thing, congratulations to Stereophile, Stereophile Guide to Home Theater, and Home Theater magazines for presenting such an exciting and fun event. The flaws were still only a minor aspect of the show. many dealers were helpful and offered their time very generously, and it sure was fun to get a look and a listen to all that gear. Pefstatiou, I haven't seen a pony tail in NY since 1992, so I question the home town of the aforementioned Red Rose salesman, perhaps he reminds you of the pony tail you always wanted, but were afraid to grow? Sorry, can't let too many jabs at New York go by without a right cross in return. If we are lucky enough to host another show next year I promise to post a suggestion to all Audiogon members that we all meet and share a drink or two . |
i've been to something like 10 ces's and 3 stereophile shows, tho i turned down several invitations to attend the latest exhibition in nyc about which trelga started this thread. i recall vividly the 1st big time show i went to in las vegas, when the "audio highend" shared space at the sahara with the "adult video" crowd. there, too, the crowds were confining, the signage was less helpful than brail menus to the sighted, the layout of the "bilevel" was virtually impossible to fathom and most of the rooms had all the sonic characteristics one might expect when a shoddy "suite" from which the simulated woodgrain plastic-covered furniture has been removed is filled with multi-thousand-dollar audio ephemera and a few plants that are supposed to look good in the hoped-for pictures to be taken by the all-powerful gurus of the superspecialized "hifi" press. to make matters worse, the electrical system at the sahara was so overloaded, just supplying juice to the slots, that several semi-sized trailers housing huge generators were parked within hearing distance of many rooms, spewing diesel fumes and just enough extra volts to assure brownouts would prevail over the black variety. still, in this seemingly unworkable environment, some systems shown through. and there was magic in the air. stuff from which dreams are composed.
now, when i return to ces, i know what to listen for. some of the best sound comes from rooms that war veterans have set up. they know by now the general "acoustic" characteristics of the venue, now the alexis park, and bring the sort of equipment and room treatments that will make the chosen of their product line sound best. the champ of this ilk at ces 2001 was the guy from westlake audio who set up a $1500 pair of monitors to mate with around $70k of boulder electronics. he built a kind of cocoon in which was placed one perfect listening chair surrounded, front, top and rear by acoustical fabric/treatment.
other exhibitors displayed their wares seemingly unadorned. yet some very few of them also stood out from the masses. among this small group was nagra. this superluxe swiss company played second-generation master tapes on their spy sized reel-to-reel through wilson watt/puppy 6.1's. gorgeous looking. awesome sounding.
i offer these observations not to undercut or diminish the views of others on this thread but merely to provide a frame of reference. audio shows offer a special sort of place to hear a wide array of equipment. nearly always, that equipment is heard in far less than optimal spaces. nonetheless, sometimes one can hear through these limitations and be inspired. that, in a nutshell, is my experience.
trelga, i commend you for the bravery needed to start this thread. i hope many more in our small community get the opportunity to experience the pleasure and pain of hifi shows. i can assure you, it will add almost immeasurably to your knowledge of this sport.
happy listening. -kelly |
trelja, sorry to have gotten your name screwed up in my last post. i'd like to think my spellchecker did it. can't be sure. ;>). -kelly |
Joe, Thanks for your report. I'm sure it took a lot of time, and it was very helpful. That type of initiative helps keep this site great. (I'm still one of the guys who really likes this site, faults and all). Thanks for your opinions. I don't agree with all of them, but as you said "that's why they make chocolate and vanilla". As far as the side thread here, I wouldn't concern myself with anyone's opinions of me, especially if that someone is willing to make a judgement about me based on a single action or statement. From our past conversations, I am sure you are not swayed by or worried about that. So, to make it short, thanks again and keep up the good work.
Happy listening everyone,
Todd |
Thanks Trelja, I was going to limit myself to positive reviews but your post has persuaded my otherwise.
Big disappointments: the nagra/eggelston room. I listened for a while when they were playing some Ellington on their open reel, something was really missing here. Sounded somewhat better with an SACD of Stevie Ray Vaughn but only marginally so. The Vandy/Cary Room I found a little bright, but that was friday morning so maybe things were sorted out better through the weekend - not bad sound, just what I wouldn't expect at that price. The Alon room: hard to describe, big sound, but big midlevel gear like a decent Rega Planar 3 with a good tube integrated only 1O x's the soundstage. The Utopia/Lamm/DCS combo: again I was expecting to be transported here, but instead was glad that I hadn't written that six figure check. Finally, the Dynaudio Room: lots of pyrotechics but no music, here though I thought there might be lots of potential for improvement, but nothing that made me want to stay and figure out how. My best sound vote goes to the Sakura/47 labs room. I really was surprised by this. Ok, the front end was the 25K pitracer as transport, progression dac and then gaincard as amp. These drove Vaessen? (Belgian) monitors. Wow. Just a really, really different type of Hifi. Sounded very smooth lush, tons of detail etc...At the other end of the spectrum I really liked the Totem Hawks with a Rega planet 2000/brio combo. I thought this set-up in a very small room really embarrassed a lot of the bigboy stuff. Also the Arcam CD 23 plus their new integrated(?) with AE minimonitors sounded really good. I guess my bias is showing here, or maybe I adjusted my expecations with price(I don't think so)? I think there's a lot more consistently good stuff at the 1k to 2K per component range than 20K plus statement pieces - its out there, but you've got to look harder. I also was happy to hear, in the EAR/Silverline room a Sony ES 777, after reading so much criticisim of its CD's capabilities I was very pleasantly surprised. Had my first, brief listen to an SACD here, and yeah, it was very,very good. Sony, you may now send me one. |
The EAR/Silverline room had a Dodson DAC in their system. Unless they weren't using it, you were hearing the Sony as transport-only for redbook CDs. |
Drubin,
I was there Sunday afternoon, was the Dodson in the rack? I found in the rooms I liked, I looked less, and listened more, so its possible I missed it. If it was, then the sound of the Sony/Dodson was very,very close to the Sony on SACD. Maybe there are some photos floating around to clear this up. Thanks. Forgot to mention that in addition to the above, I thought the Merlin, Joule, Aero Capitole room was also excellent. |
Prfont, I saw the Dodson in there Sunday morning if I recall correctly. Could have been gone or not in use that afternoon. The Sony-Dodson combination is what I use personally so I noticed it. |
THE VOTING SYSTEM ON THIS SITE IS SCREWED UP. FOR SOME REASON I CAN SEE THE VOTING TOTAL ON ONE OF DJJD'S POSTS AND NOT ONLY HAVE I NEVER VOTED ON THIS POST, I AM NOT EVEN LOGGED INTO THE SITE (I JUST CHECKED AT THE SIGN IN PAGE). THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME THAT THIS HAS HAPPENED EITHER, SO MUCH FOR PRIVACY. |
THIS MORNING, the totals are not visible. I should have checked to see if Djjd's complete tally was available to me as well, but did not think of it at the time. Definately some glitches in the software, plus the site is often much slower than usual (even when I access through a DSL link). |
Great job Trelja,dont let the likes of djjd discourage you.If the speakers where not broken in then shoot the idiot who brought a pair of speakers that where not broken in.
If you are going to get one shoot to impress do it.
Rent the room for a few extra days before the show and tweak the room.Dont cry when your sound is bad and blame it on the room the speakers are not broke in.
Again everyone had the same lousy hotel rooms to set up in.So even playing field.Some sound good some sound bad.
Trelja great job on telling it like it is. |
Thanks for the message Leafs. It is much appreciated, especially coming from you. I promise that whenever I submit something on Audiogon it will by my honest, heartfelt, personal opinion. With all of us maintaining this philosophy, we are ensured the broadest, deepest, most accurate audio coverage around. People of every background, taste, and experience offering up what we honestly see, feel, and most of all hear. Regarding the show in New York, I had a great time, and certainly will return. I heard good sound, and bad. Personally, if it was my company presenting at the show, I would do my darndest to make sure we presented ourselves in a flattering manner. Going to whatever extent required. Even constructing a mock up of the room we would be in, if necessary. Then, go about making sure everything was as good as could we could make things. Otherwise, why be a part of the whole thing? The downside is way too risky. Take for example Talon. A pretty new company, with probably not a lot of show experience. A product which has caused a lot of debate throughout the audiophile community. Polarizing people into those that love it, and those that hate it. From the surface, there seems to be a lot to admire about the speaker. The design is beautiful, the fit and finish excellent, the marketing strategy smart. All that remains in a potential customer's mind is the sound. The premier goal of a company like that should be to turn as many people on at the show as they possibly can. To put their best sonic foot forward. From what I had heard through the crowd and read in this thread, they instead turned as many people off as they possibly could. The ramifications of which could be enormous. I went there most wanting to check out the combination of horn speakers with SET amplification. Next, I wanted to hear a few other brands. Including Talon. To form my own opinion. I spent a good amount of time in the room. Sadly, I came away with extremely negative feelings about the product. I am not completely sure about the drivers, but my impression was that they did not seem to be of the type normally encountered in an audiophile speaker. I have dabbled in the speakerbuilding hobby long enough to recognize many of the drivers(and brands) used in the industry. These, particularly the woofers, were not recognizable. No matter, sound is far more important to me. And, it was that that I was most disappointed with. Sean's detailed report of the speaker's measurements were a perfect mirror of what I heard(maybe all those years in the speaker building hobby did teach me something). I concede that the speaker may not have been broken-in(shame on the company if that is the case), or that the room was poor. My biggest concern is that the problems I encountered with the speaker were exactly the same as that type of setting would ameliorate. I will however, give the speakers another chance. I am planning to give them another audition. An opportunity for them to change my opinion. As for next year, I plan on submitting another show report. My feeling is that we should all offer up what our impressions were. |
I basically agree with Trelja's stance. Since we all SHOULD know that the acoustics are less than spectacular, one HAS to read between the lines of any description of gear. This is NO different than reading a review in a magazine. Check out a various amount of opinions and chances are, some will differ and some will confirm. Either way, each person is simply presenting their thoughts and experiences with each product or system.
Having said that, i personally find it hard to "condemn" a system at a show unless you give it a couple different chances. As a case in point, my brother and i heard one system at a show in Chicago that sounded phenomenal. I took one of my friends to listen to it the next day of the show. I was utterly embarressed to say the least. The system sounded ABSOLUTELY horrid. I'm talking nails on chalkboard type of horrid. While it might have been the one recording that was on, we literally had to clear out to save our hearing. While i KNEW that the system was capable of producing some very good sounds, i would have thought "utter junk" if i had only listened that one time.
The bottom line is this: Don't be hasty to form opinions. Some stuff takes time to figure out exactly what's going on. Sean
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