Hi I must agree with sirspeedy I just got an ORPHEUS it sounds best tracking at 1.98 Or 2.00 grams I have GRAHAM 2.2 It also sounds best at 47 OHMS.This cartridge is much better than the TEMPER V I had this is my forth TRANSFIGURATION. Thanks!! |
I think,at this point,any additional comments would be kind of moot.I don't want to be a contrarian,and promised to take any findings at face value.I totally believe what Andrew heard,but for a "real" comparison,it would be best if the "O" were to be in the system for a much longer period of time(obviously,here,not practical).I'm sure it would then be set up to the "max"(like the "UNI"),given enough time.Doug DID mention this was only a general comparison.When one spends their own money on something(here,the "UNI")and voices the set-up to get it's best,sometimes over a long period(which the "UNI" is,in Doug's fine set-up,I have NO doubt)that is optimal.Playing around with a design,that is still new,and not really having a good feel for it,(being used to a differing set of performance parameters),like loading,downforce etc,as one would,if it was "their own" money on the line(I'm NOT being critical here,though it may seem that way)is no more than a "nice curiosity",at best!Especially with something SO critical as a cartridge,which is not a "drop in" component.
Andrew,you may have served yourself better,prior to going to Doug,to simply call the distributor.Letting him know what components you have,and starting from there.This way,this business of loading,and downforce,as well as possibly other parameters(mistracking below 1.94?)could have been made a bit more clear.
I am very interested in BOTH these designs,and will buy one,for sure.I'm still in the dark though!C,mon,you knew I had to start a little trouble!
Best!
Mark |
Hi Andrew,
I though that Doug may have run the MM inputs to get the 47K load. (that should suggest to folks how much Nick's MM stage can handle) I think that Doug may have had Nick build in some selectable loads and that's how he was able to vary the load through the MC stage. Mine is preset. Not a big deal, I was just curious.
What did you do to Doug?!? We haven't heard from him yet! :) |
Yes - thanks for the report! And ques ça c'est 'Sonic Fireworks'?
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BTW Andrew,the Sonic Fireworks discs are Direct To Disc if I remember,as I do have one volume(I think)."Blockbusters",and used to be the "staple" of many a Hi-Fi demo,by many dealers,in the old LP days.If you like,I can look for more of these(I think there were two volumes?)at the Princeton Record Exchange,if anyone else is curious.Crystal Clear Label,or maybe Sonic Arts?
Just let me know,and I'd be happy to keep an eye out.They don't usually cost much,and do show up from time to time.I'd have no problemo laying out the few bucks in advance.
Best!
Mark |
Kha,
Where are you? Since you're running both the Universe and Orpheus, what are your impressions. Your input would be much appreciated. Coimparisons? Ideal loading and VTF for Orpheus.
Andrew |
Mark,
I was quite surprised myself regarding the 47K. In my system with the CAT preamp I did not find the level of disatisfaction we heard in Doug's system at 47K. Personally, in my system I actually like the 47K a lot. Although 100 ohms was a little smoother in the highs and a little more natural, the 47K provided more detail, soundstage depth and ariness. Exactly what you described at 47K. It did not fall apart like it did in Doug's system. The only caveat is that I was at 1.87g VTF when I was experimenting with loading. However, if anything I would expect the highs would be smoother at 47K AND 1.97g VTF.
Very interesting. Either our systems are unresolving (but Doug's is) or there is an issue with Doug's preamp at 47K with the O.
We were drinking a 2004 Cote de Rhone by Andre Brunnel. Rhones are always a good value in my book. Scotch was Lagavulin-16 year.
Dan_ed, not sure where you're going with this. You have the Doshi preamp. what does this mean? We did put the O in the MM inputs to get 47K.
Andrew |
Wait, those values are way to big for transformer loading. |
Andrew,great post!!I must admit we did not try the loading,other than the 47ohm spec.DRATS!!I definitely dropped the ball here,last Friday,but in the past,with Tranny's,we did stay for quite some time(weeks),at 60 and 100 ohms.Always finding our way back to 47 ohms.Sorry,but in my friend's(mine is the same) phonostage that did not give the results you heard.Also,there was a steady stream of music lovers about,who did not complain about the 47 load,as we compared it to the others.This has to be system dependent(I hope,or I may need a new hearing check-up).
I am quite disappointed in myself,that I did not remember to at least check this,last week,as for all I know,the "O" may wind up being better elsewhere.But it sounded just fine to us(then and again,the Temper-v may be lower in performance than the "UNI",which could have exposed these things).I am certainly not about to spend another 40 bucks in gas/tolls,to find out,this week.BTW, I would like to see if more input on downforce appears from other owners of the "O".The distributor was pretty adamant about being closer to 2.0 gms(Bc3,stated this,and wound up at 1.97,which seems a good point of finality).Once we got up there,with good performance at hand,my friend was not too inclined to let me do too much playing,beyond that.
I anxiously await the post by Doug(an understatement),and am actually quite happy with the results found.Fortunately I own no stock in any of these companies,and am in NO camp(on any components,actually),so I am happy to accept the "found" results,as a good guideline.You guys must have had a grand old time!How much fun is a good listening session,shared with other obsessed(in the best way)hobbyist/music lovers?
My only complaint is ......
You could have given some more explicit input,as to exactly what wines were SO enjoyed.Those,I can actually go out and buy,in the here and now!This business of "coils gone wild",takes a little more time to save up for!-:)
Best!
Mark
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Doug, or Andrew, were you using an outboard tansformer? I'm curious to know how you accomplished the load changes.
Thanks for the report Andrew! Maybe before too long we can do a 3-way comparison with the XV-1s, which I know to be a step below the Universe. |
Nsgarch,
Very good points. In fact I was thinking about drawing the same conclusion on my previous post but wasn't able to remember everything. In Doug's system, 47K was virtually unlistenable. Maybe his system is so resoved that this was picked up.
When I said that maybe something higher in loading above 200ohms might be desireable, this essentially implied that since the cartridge wasn't fully broken in we had to up the loading to get more pronounced mid/high end performance. Essentially to compensate for the shading of the highs in a deisreable loading range, as a result of insufficient break-in, we had to force more stridency by increasing the loading. I can't imagine how bad it might sound at 47K once fully broken in.
Per your suggestion, I'll try re-experimenting with VTF once fully broken-in.
Like you said before. Be patient and wait for everything to come into place at the lower loading.
By the way, I just picked up a copy of Sonic Fireworks Vol 1. I'm starting to feel bad for the neighbors. |
Andrew, thanks for the report (so far.) I think you'll find that when fully broken in (125-150 hrs) you'll be able to lower the load on the O to a more permanent setting of 55 - 65 ohms while maintaining all the highs and picking up even more bass.
Additionally, when fully broken in, the compliance will be at its full spec'd value and then you'll be able to drop the VTF a tad, thus increasing detail while still maintaining good tracking. From what you're saying about the bass now, it should be just amazing in another 60 hours at a lower load. |
All,
Here are my impressions of the Transfiguration Orpheus and Zyx Universe (copper coil, silver plate) comparison.
Firstly, I would like to thank Doug and Paul for a great evening. They were gracious hosts and I learned a lot about audio from their experience. Conversations, dinner, wine, scotchÂ….it was all great.
I found their system very revealing. Aided by the Universe, Teres table, Triplanar arm and Nick Doshi preamp their system was very transparent, open, “free” and dynamic (micro/macro) but yet very relaxed. One could hear very deep into the soundstage and the airiness around instruments was eerie. I had a feeling we would not have any trouble performing the comparison given this level of system performance.
We played classical, ragtime and some pop/rock material on Doug and PaulÂ’s system. It had all of the characteristics I mentioned above. Of particular note was how quick and sharp notes appeared and trailed naturally with amazing soundstage, separation of instruments and airiness. Once again, it was evident that the system was both very quick and detailed but yet relaxed and natural.
Doug then installed the Orpheus. Please remember, this cartridge is NOT fully broken in. It only has about 80 hours. More on this later. We let it play for about 45 minutes while we had dinner to settle in a bit. After some further playing, this was later followed by using some tracks on the Cardas test record.
Firstly some comments on Orpheus settings. We quickly settled at around 1.94g VTF. 1.87 was a bit too low and 1.99 was a bit too high. The loading comparisons were very interesting. We tried 200, 1500 and 47K ohms. 200 sounded very nice: natural bottom end and mid-range, relaxed but detailed, more airiness around the highs, and more three-dimensional, however, with less energetic, subdued mids and highs. At 47k, the highs became very strident and with a lot of glare. It lost its tempo, three-dimensionality, relaxed sound and airiness around the highs. Stepping it down to 1500 ohms did improve the issues at 47K, but it still lost some of the virtues we heard at 200ohms. At this point, a setting between 200 and 1500 ohms would have been better. So, the issue we faced was mostly the detail and quickness in the mids and highs. All of us felt that this could be solved as the cartridge breaks in. The highs are an area that do open up and improve with break-in.
Paul felt that the note waveforms were dispersed with the Orpheus causing a smearing and lack of sharpness. He thinks that the energy radiating to and from the cartridge is not being effectively damped and that something like the Schroeder arm might be a better match. Of course, this could possibly be due to the stiff, un-broken in suspension. Doug and Paul can expand on this.
With regard to comparison to the Universe, my opinion is that the Uni sounded quicker, sharper and more extended and three-dimensional in the highs and midrange. Once again, a lot of air around the instruments. The Orpheus sounded great but slightly less dynamic (but never strained), open and sharp in comparison. This could be a break-in issue. Personally, I felt the bass and mid-bass of the Orpheus sounded better than the Universe overall. It was bold, extended further and was more dynamic. I preferred the Orpheus in this regard on the rock cut (Yes-Heart of the Sunrise) and brassy/kettle drum classical tracks (Sonic Fireworks) we played.
The Uni is a neutral cartridge and the Orpheus displayed similar neutrality. It was said, that the Orpheus is more in the league of the Uni neutrality and not close to the euphonic characteristics of Shelters, KoetsuÂ’s and BenzÂ’s. Therefore, I felt that these cartridges were closer in performance than they were different. Listeners with an untrained ear and to those preferring rock and very dynamic material might find these two cartridges close in performance. Although I do like rock music (+ classical), my ears are sensitive enough to tell differences and the Uni is better at this point in the break-in cycle in the areas I mentioned above.
My take away is that the Orpheus, at this infant point in its break-in, has some key strengths in the bass and mid-bass areas and exhibits an inherent neutrality, and lack of strain, that could allow it to evolve into a better performer in the mids and highs with further use. At that point, I would expect the gap between these two cartridges to close considerably and maybe even put the Orpheus further ahead in the bass and mid-bass areas.
Some (or most) of you are probably shaking your heads asking the question, “why would you ever go into compare a fully broken-in, optimized Universe to an un-broken in Orpheus”. Reasonable question given how these comparisons could sway buyers one way or the other. My answer: for the sake of experimentation and to have made the evening with Doug and Paul even more interesting. I hope people don’t try to view this as a shootout with a winner and a loser. This was an exhibition match with the real “contest” much further away in time. The Tranny camp should not fret (there is a lot of potential here with some already apparent strengths) and the Zyx-Uni camp should not claim a victory prematurely.
IÂ’ll keep all of you posted on how the cartridge evolves with break-in and repeat the loading and VTF experiments in my own system. I would also like to take Doug and Paul up on their offer to return for another comparison when the cartridge is fully broken-in.
Lastly, thank you Doug and Paul for your time and generosity. I really enjoyed it. Analytical thinking aside, I had a smile on my face most of the time while we were listening to either cartridge. You have a great system and great music selection! Now I need to find a place to buy Sonic Fireworks!
Andrew |
Andrew visited us this evening and we had an enjoyable and instructive time, aided considerably by the fine wine and even finer single malt he brought with him. My thanks for that!
SirSpeedy was correct to warn about VTF's below 1.90g. We heard the first faint signs of mistracking at 1.91 and moved up to 1.94, which proved safe. We tried higher VTF's too, and impedance settings of 200, 1500, and 47K ohms.
I would want Andrew to post his impressions first, but the answer to Rmaurin's questions is "no". More anon...
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Does the "O" have the detail of the Lyra and the warmth of the Benz? |
Andrew,Doug,Paul,don't bother with anything under 1.9 gms.It would,also,be a safe bet(see Bc3 here,too)to move,quickly, to 1.95 and move up from there.Also,you must try 47 ohm loading,as well.
Best of luck!
Mark |
Nsgarch, Bc3, Sirspeedy,
We will likely start our comparison of the O to the Univ by setting the O from my last point of optimization. That was at 1.87g VTF, 47K and arm parallel. Doug is open to spending some time optimizing the O so we will move to your more experienced and thorough optimization settings. Therefore, we will end up at 1.97g VTF, 60-200 ohms loading and arm parallel.
I'll report back tomorrow on findings of migrating my settings to the group optimum settings and how it compares to the Univ.
Andrew |
I have settled in at about 1.97g. Amazing how consistent these numbers tend to be with the Transfigs. I always ended up at 1.87 with the Tempers. sirspeedy, your remarks, including hyperbole, are just what I expected, as they reflect my own sense of the Orpheus. A lot of "little betters" adding up synergistically to a big step closer to the heart of the music. Though, I tend to understate, in order to allow people to come to their own conclusions. Also, cartridges are such system/taste/setup dependent things, one just never knows. I do know, however, that those who like what the Tempers have done well over the years will absolutely love the Orpheus. It is not so "hi-fi" as some of the others mentioned, but, if you have spent lots of time going to the symphony, or jazz clubs, or (now, finally, with the Orpheus) rock concerts, it will sound very familiar to you. |
Neil, 52 and counting, rapidly.
The hair's begun to grey but little of it has actually left me, yet. I just paid my stylist to barcode and GPS link each strand though, just to keep track. The digital revolution has come into its own - perfect hair forever!
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Larry - Given your findings, would you say that the Universe might work better in gimbaled arms rather than uni-pivots. |
Hey,Larry....Better watch what you say,or I'll start a Miami Travel Fund,first!
Best!
Mark |
Doug, you have GREAT hearing! When will you be turning thirty? |
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Mark,
.
It wasn't that the UNIverse did not like the 2.2, it just liked the Tri-Planar and the Schroder much, much better.
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I suggest you turn off the lights at your house on Halloween entirely to be able to save all you can so that you can start both a cartridge and a tonearm fund.
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Rgds,
Larry
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Please make sure one of the judges is not paid off.A'la Don King style Darn! I've already had my hair done. BTW, Cello (and Paul and I) had no problems with the UNIverse on his 2.2. The Airy 3 is the one that didn't like that arm. The UNIverse makes the 2.2 sound as good as, well, as good as it can! ;-) Dan's right about my ears. :-( My head is stuffed up with hay fever congestion and my HF hearing (usually clear to at least 15-16Khz) is shot to hell. Paul's goes well above mine however, so he's in charge of treble. I can still feel vibrations in the floor though, so I'll be charge of bass. Andrew can be in charge of beautiful mids and pouring more wine! |
Mark! Do like I do. Throw eggs at those little trick or treat bastards! Get 'em before they get you, that's what I always say!
BTW, I'm in on that goils gone wild thing! |
I must admit,I am "dying"to get these results!!A year ago,I would have been suspicious of any posts of this nature,but I now have a healthy respect for the guys doing these comparisons!There will be no arguments from me,either way.
As of a week,or so from now,I will be starting either a "UNI" fund,or an "O" fund,with an outside shot of the top Van Den hul,or Blue Mantis.The xv-1s,I believe to be too heavy for my arm.I have made a decision to upgrade cartridges,as of last Friday,which came as a surprise to me.Those poor kids at Halloween will be getting less treats,as I have to scrounge up some extra cash!-:)My only prob with the "UNI",should it emerge the winner,is that Cello found it to not be a great match for his 2.2!
I know the "O" mates well here,but am MOST interested.Since I know the "O" is clearly superior to the Temper-V,which I own.Yet I will be quite happy if the final confirmation comes down in the "UNI" camp.Closure can be a good thing.
Maybe we can set up a "web-cam",and sell this as "coils gone wild"!
Best!
Mark |
Larry, my dog ate those rollerblocks. Or, my wife accidently threw them out with the garbage. Take which ever excuse you prefer for my not sending them back. ;)
Sorry for going OT. |
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Andrew, and/or Doug, please fill us all in on the cartridge comparisons. Make sure Paul is there, I trust his ears! Doug's ears I'm not so sure about. Just kidding, Doug! I don't know if you've heard Doug's system before. If not I can safely say that you guys will have no trouble picking up on the differences.
Sorry to drift OT just a bit, but what Mark described with the Venustas sounds exactly what I hear from that model IC and speaker cable before break-in. Albert warned me that I'd probably mumble dirty things about these cables for the first 100 hours or so. After that they really start to mellow and blossom. |
Nsgarch, Sirspeedy,
Yep. This comparison will occur this Wednesday. Doug's info has been a great help and I wanted to pay my respects!
Interest in this comparison must be great and a comparison would inevitably occur sooner or later. I'm certainly interested in the Zyx mistique. Finally the Zyx and Tranny camp meet. Maybe they would have been better off not :). Anyway, I think Doug will be fair and I will post my observations in an unbiased way.
As you know, many regard the Univ as one of the best. However, many also regard the Tranny's as some of the very best as well. And now with the O in the game it's about time these two meet. I suspect both camps will be positively surprised and these two fine cartridges are probably more alike than different. We'll see.
Andrew |
Andrew,you are going to Doug,this Wednesday for a Univ vs Orpheus shootout!!!!!!!C'mon,man!
Please make sure one of the judges is not paid off.A'la Don King style.-:)
Just kidding!
Best,
Mark |
Andrew -- I'd love to be an audiophile fly on the wall at that pow wow. Better not say anything about it to Mehran @ Sorasound just yet ;--)
Speedy, RE the 47 ohm setting for the O: from all my polling of folks with Trannies (not yet the O of course) I've noticed that they all seem to settle on a load just a bit shy of the optimum theoretical load for their particular cartridge. I've been running at exactly the optimum for my W, but I'm going to drop it a bit and see what happens. I'll let you know.
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Sirspeedy,
thanks for your response. I will have to try the higher VTF and the lower loading that Nsgarch suggests. By the way, I was afraid my comparison to CD' would likely be controverstial. I tried to say this in a positive way. I think Fremer may have said the same thing. Wasn't try to copy..only my impression. anyway, the O is clearly bvetter than CD playback. Even my 40 Grado was.
By the way, I'm up north and plan to do a comparison of the O to the Zyx Universe at Dougdeacon's place this Wednesday. We'll try it at 200 ohms and !~2g of VTF.
Stay tuned...
Andrew |
Nsgarsh,I promised myself I would not go overboard in posting on this thread.As I always do.I'm getting a bit self conscious about how I seem to go a bit over the top,when I get enthusiastic about stuff.
As to the "damn good" Venustas....yes it was in "this" set-up that the phono cable was originally squashed by the A/B comparison with the IC-70(not a cable coming for free with the Graham arms,as you now know).Truthfully,it has broken in big time,and we heard this a few weeks before the "O" came.
My friend is "rediculous" about long break-in(he actually has an extensive "log",where he writes down all cable/component hours.C'mon!!.I'm sure he,like you,is correct about that parameter,but I am too impatient,and simply play my music,and let break in take it's rightful time to happen.
BTW,I totally forgot to check the "O",in the loading areas.We,previously checked the "V" many times,over two years,and though 60,and 100 ohms were nice and relaxed,the frequency extremes were superior with 47!Dynamics,and stage as well.This is probably system dependant,but I do feel better,hearing Aoliviero's comments.If I had screwed up Friday's session and not gotten good sound at 47,I would have forced myself to go back this week.
I WILL definitely check this,next month,when I re-visit him.In the meantime,I'm starting my Orpheus fund!!!! |
Speedy, well that's good news -- guess I better get my W on the block ;--)
I was quite interested by what you said about the Venustas tonearm cables. You see, mine belonged originally to Jim Aud himself, and were quite thoroughly broken in when I got them. So they sounded amazing to me from the start and have remained that way. Yet I've heard some less than enthusiatic comments here and there, and wondered just how long these babies really need to break in (without Cable Cooker help ;--) What do you think? |
Nsgarsh,I luv ya,but don't get too carried away until you actually can play around with "your next cartridge".GUARANTEED!!BTW,the Venustas now sounds great in this set-up.Guess it needed more breakin.
Jtimothya,and Aoliviero....My pal let his "O" play for a full week,on a steady diet of organ discs,in mute.By the time I left it was only fifty hrs,and you could hear that it had some better days ahead,in terms of a more relaxed presentation.Who cared?It was obvious this would be the case,but it was SO good,we where thrilled."Tough to track" orchestral recordings can show up a cartridge/arm's flaws in an instant.The "O" was "killing" us.It was SO good,here!
I am fanatical(actually I was forced almost by gunpoint)about constant adjustment of vta/downforce/2.2 damping fluid,in consonance with eachother.Just to get the right combo usually takes me a long time with my Temper-v,as I believe the "V" has a subtle resonant signature(not that it is not a very good cartridge,but not "great",and NOW I know it)that my Graham 2.2 does not like very much.The "O" is MUCH better with the 2.2!!To me this is a BIG DEAL,but to others it may not be much.Remember this is all ONLY specific to my friend's system,and mine,which is very similar.To all others,the jury is still out,and that's fine by me.I know what it does, on my own stuff,which is what matters to me.You should definitely take my comments with a grain of salt!
To elaborare,a bit,my friend was adamant about my tracking on the high side.He was told by the distributor to track at 2.o gms.The distributor also has the Graham 2.2(our luck,for some tips)and he was clear about this tracking weight.
Personally I didn't care what my pal was told,because I feel/felt that the cartridge in the arm would tell me everything I had to know.I did not want anyone else to tell me where my starting point should be.I need to find out things for myself.A better learning process,I guess.I had all day/night to find out,so I literally(I mean this)had to threaten my friend that if he did not let me find out for myself(by starting at about 1.85 gms and moving up,in 1/100 gm increcments),he could do it himself.My pal has a load of experience,but likes to sit back,snack and watch me sweat,so I got my way.Forget about anything under 1.9 gms(on the 2.2,at least).Here you get the dreaded little "resonant" signature that usually means more damping fluid,or lower vta.We knew we were in the fluid "zone",and vta too,so the tracking HAD to be "the magic" here.It was!BTW,vta is almost horizontal,to lp,but the now vertical frontal portion of the body,is a good aid too.Adjustment by ear,is the only way to go here!
I have NO doubts as to the downforce here!I was quite surprised to find out that the higher downforces of 1.95-2.0 gms where FAR better than anything in the 1.8-ish areas.We wound up at 2.0(he somehow has this fixation on exactly 2.0 gms,which will change with environment,but although it IS fine,when I get an "O",I will try more voicings between 1.95-2.0,in 1/1000's,and don't get too upset,as I won't go too overboard).I did not have to play much(THANK GOD)with the fluid,as the "O" had a lower resonant signature than the "V",and this came through as beautiful timbre,with real roundness and natural warmth.Besides,I have exhausted all fluid voicings with the "V",already,and know it like a book.The "O" simply did not excite the point to point/metal contact of my 2.2's pivot bearing(I assume)!!NO coloration.To me it blends the speed,inner detail and resolution of the "V" with the gorgeous overtones of a really "Elite" Koetsu or Myabi Ivory.I owned Koetsu Black/Onyx/Onyx Sapphire/Urushi,so I feel comfortable stating this.BUT there is NO way the "O" has any thinning character,or CD like coloration.That is simply an "off" set-up,and I suggest more hands on attention,here.Believe me,you will be a "hapy puppy" if you "play around" ALOT!If this business of "silly" long break in is correct(200 hrs?and you have to be kidding me,but fine by me,if true),the owners will be thrilled,as it is fabulous, almost right out of the box.
Obviously I had an easier time,than some,because I had two Tranny's before,and my friend had three,so being that we both have the Graham 2.2,and was aided by the distributor,with his own Graham 2.2( ha,ha Doug -:)),life was made easier.
Yet it still took a full eight hours to get where we felt comfortable it could not be made better,until maybe next month.When we will re-check everything, accounting for more break-in.Yet,we are both SO excited!To us,the "O" vs "V" comparison was more akin to seeing a really good Sony "tube" tv monitor(like an XBR),and then being exposed to the finer contrasts/colors/detail/transparency of an "HDTV",with an LCD screen.More of the "good" stuff.
Truthfully,the better the system,the better this cartridge will tell you just how good it is!That "maybe more than a little better" becomes MUCH better,in the "best" set-ups.I really don't mean to be condescending here.Bc3,and Nsgarsh had it right,weeks ago,and Nsgarsh must have a crystal ball,since he is going on x's and o's only,but he is almost dead on(as usual).Except the "O",at this level, is much better than the "V"(I'm assuming the "W" too,and let's not rationalize that).The better the system,the bigger the gap between "IT" and the "V"!Unless you are a klutz,with set-up,or allow someone else to set you up,who has a monetary agenda.Better off with a good set of friends,or become good yourself,which is easy.Look at guys like Doug Deacon.Seriously!He has really become an "Iron Horse" at mastering the complexity of "things needing attention to detail".Others too!
On Britten's Prince OF The Pagodas there is such an incredible seperation of instrumentation,especially with the woodwinds and flutes,that I could hear the air blowing down the body of each "seperate instrument".I always thought this was "Linear Arm Territory",but it was being done on a unipivot.BTW,Bc3...Right on regarding the piccolos.Finally!Instruments made of wood were SO definiyively WOODY,that I almost cried.I never heard "that" before.Done "that" well!Wood blocks,struck together(in "The Pagodas")sounding like my kids cracking their new "wooden toys" right next to me.No transducer,but eeirily "live".Almost!Overtones you want to bite into.So textured,they were.Don't believe me!!
Also,on Muddy Watters and Junior Wells'--"Drinkin TNT and Smokin Dynamite"(Blind Pig,label)the guitar,and slides where "just SO real"in timbre and texture,and with that metal string "RESONANT SNAP".I know how often this characteristic is stated,but it smoked the Temper-v,here.BTW,in both my own,and my friend's set-up,we have exhausted the potential of the "V",in virtually all parameters.We simply can't get it as good as the "O" was,yesterday,and that was only "one" listening session(not to say we were not happy,before,but not "special",like this).Just a few hours,to get sound this good.Hmm!
Actually,on acoustic material,like this,the ZYX Universe also did the guitar(I used to be a guitar collector,and lousy player)with this kind of tonal dynamic shading,as I remember,but the system sporting the UNIV,at the time,was in metamorphosis,so orchestral music and voice was not as fully fleshed out,as what we had last night.I am sure that previous set-up is MUCH better now!A real contender,for sure!With my friend's set-up though,so many of the little annoying bugs have been removed,that everything stands out,in BOLD relief.He really has a fine rig!And deserves it,as he has spent a ton of money,and gallons of sweat on it!Alot of the sweat,mine.
On Mercury SR 90134(orig pressing)Fiesta in HiFi,with The Eastman Rochester Orch.....This is a SENSATIONAL and entertaining lp.Side one starts out with a "full blast string rush/ambient dynamo"that I have never heard reproduced this well, through the years, on numerous systems.Including mine.The Orpheus is the first cartridge that tames those strings,and they sound dynamic and almost sweet.If not right,you will be running out of the room.Dynamic thrust,on that first movement.Anyone knowing the "Mercury Sound" knows the strings were never as smoothe as the RCA's of that era,but obviously there was more sweetness recorded than was originally thought.Talking "early pressings".Not the re-issues,which are very good,but due to the aging of some master tapes,lose some timbre.With the "O",you get the feeling it all comes down to taming the slight resonant characteristic,that rides along with "Tracking" an LP!This is so easily overlooked,but when it is gone it is also SO obvious.One reason I love Linear Arms!
I know I am getting "long" with my post,but I am really enthused.Sorry!Also,I am basically speaking about equipment I am familiar with.I am not making definitive statements.I have no doubts,there are equal,or beter cartridges on the market.Maybe!Just that I have not heard one,in my own system(no surprises here)or any of my friends' systems that come close to how I hear this Orpheus,in the areas that are important to me.I am a timbre/harmonics/texture nut(definitely a nut,anyway).The Orpheus will allow me to finally get a rounder,richer,more textured balance from my orchestral recordings( pop stuff is far too easy,btw).No colorations,to sweeten things up,either.Just a better tracking/tracing of the grooves,with a lower resonant characteristic(on my arm),which is a real thrill,for long term satisfaction(the solid state "guys" will love this,and it is incredible on mono recordings,which we heard aplenty).This lack of a resonant signature is something I always felt would elude me,unless I got a Linear arm,or an arm that had NO bearing friction,at all(they all,"almost",do).I hear this coming through,in the tracing of a groove(not tracking,but tracing),as a sort of non-linearity/grain(very subtle)which may be my own hang up,and it bothers me.But,now,at least in my mind,with my own equipment,having their own set of deficiencies,I can DEFINITELY correct a MAJOR flaw.To me,a BIG thing.Hooray!
I simply don't believe that this cartridge is anything less than GREAT(where others may be too).Just wait until it gets more exposure,and the jury will give a more universal verdict.Me?I'm just one enthusiastic hobbyist,that knows what my next audio purchase will be.My wife has no clue,yet,and won't be too keen here.But this is audio.My hobby!I'll find a way to sell her,on my need to have it.I HOPE!
Believe me,I was hoping to NOT like this design,much more than my quite new Temper-v!I have only 250 hrs(at most) on my "V",and have just put a few "thou" into some latest "OTHER" updates/mods.My well has pretty much dried up,but somehow I "MUST" have this cartridge.It's just "that good".
You'll hear ALOT more about this one,so why take the word of some internet nerd,like me?
Best!
|
Neil,
I must be chasing the break-in game as you're implying and compensating for temporary effects. As I mentioned above, my observations were on an un-broken in state. I'll give it a try. Patience IS a virtue.
I'll load it down and then try the higher VTF;s as you and Bc3 suggest. Afterall, you have better and more experince than I do on these Tranny's. I will say, that even at these unoptimum settings this sounds like a great cartridge.
Andrew. |
Andrew, get that damn load down to 100 ohms. or even 60 ohms for heaven's sake. It will never sound right at 47K. And just set the headshell/top of cart parallel to platter. Run w/ a little xtra VTF till after 100 hours ( 2 - 2.25 gms)
I'm not saying that with those settings it'll sound great out of the box, but they'll alow you to hear and enjoy the changes the cart goes thru as it breaks in. You will not hear those changes at 47Kohms load, and the bass will NEVER come in. It'll sound shrill with poor bass and the only way to make it sound decent at 47Kohms will be to rake the tonearm backwards (negative SRA!) in order to tame the highs. TEENAGE SUICIDE -- DON'T DO IT! Just put it at 60 or 100 ohms and enjoy the wonderful metamorphosis of cartridge break-in ;--)
Mark -- toldyaso ;--) |
My friend,and I went through multiple diaper changes yesterday.I MUST HAVE IT!!!! Who among us can imagine the stones of wild Ciconian women deflected mid toss by the charms of Orpheus as his song titilates them to rapturous incontinency. Alas, we know what happened next. Click, next slide please. A double helping of thanks for their stories of 'O' to Andrew and SirSpeedy. Mark, how many hours were on your friend's Orpheus when your setup began? Can you say where VTF ended up? I'd love to hear more from each of you. Tim |
Sirspeedy,
Great post! It appears you LIKE IT. Can you comment on your experience with setting up the cartridge and ultimatly finding an optimum combination of settings. I.e., what were the optimum VTF, VTA, and loading? How did the sound change by varying these?
You eluded to BC3, NSgarch and doug feedback. Did you load down the cartridge to 100ohms with a parallel tonearm and VTF of about 1.95-2.0?
Thanks for your post, |
OK,finally got to my pal Friday afternoon.Kept thinking,to myself,this better be worth it,as I was greeted by New York traffic the moment I got off the Verazzano bridge!
I deserved more than "a little better than the Temper-v" performance,for having to put up with the barrage of lousy drivers,on the road,as well as 40 dollars(what a rip-off)in gas and tolls!..........Was it worth it?.........
Well,so as anyone knowing my propensity for bloviating can make an early exit,from this post,just read Bc3's comments,or Nsgarsh's assessments,and you will have a "dead on" answer.They nailed it,and with the help of Doug Deacon's antiskate postings,you all made my EIGHT HOURS of playing around with "voicing" alot easier!!THANKS!
I felt like an indentured slave,but did not complain.NOT ONE BIT!!!Here's my schtick.......
I felt the difference in price between my original Temper Supreme and my Temper-v was only about six hundred dollars list.I think!The difference in performance,there,was quite significant,as the "V" was a far more relaxed and detailed performer.A good deal,in terms of an upgrade.
Here,with the "O",the difference in price is about 1700 dollars.Almost 300 percent more,of an increase,over the "Supreme" vs "v" upgrade.Short story...Supreme listed at about 3200 dollars/"V" at 3800/"O" at 5500!!!!It better be good,not "a little better",was how I went into this!
So we set about painstakingly doing what all us obsessed 'philes do.
I'll mention some discs we played,for making certain judgements about the usual parameters,like dynamics/tracking/timbres/frequency extremes.etc!
EMI-asd2369..Eric Satie(Parade,Relache,Ballets) Paris Conservatoire Orch/Louis Auriocombe,cond WHEW---this is a GREAT disc(I don't have it)and is really hard to get,but has incredible dynamics(percussion alluding to actual gunshots,typewriter,flutes,vibraphones,etc)and is a BITCH to track cleanly.With the "V",I could always get it do do dynamics,but with a touch of "leaness of timbre,and textures".This killed the listening experience,if one was trying to get away from a Hi-Fi effect,and hear the beauty of the music.
WELL,the "FRIGGIN" Orpheus nails the crap out of this disc!!Everything the "V" did,but added tonal beauty to boot.I was starting to get depressed,but kept on with my vigil!
Next up,wasVerdi's Rigoletto...DECCA SET-542 with Sutherland Pavoratti and Milnes.Side six is the killer here,with great vocals,dynamics to burn and an incredible thing to hear,when Pavarotti moves back,and to the side of the stage,as he is singing full tilt.WHEW!..the "O" is getting EVEN BETTER,to me,and I'm getting more depressed as I'm now beginning to make mental plans for scrounging up some extra cash.ALOT of cash,sadly!
Disc after disc...from Britten's Prince of the Pagodas(huge scale)to Muddy watters and JuniorWells,and from Ella and Louis to Copland,the same results.The "O" kept getting better,and I kept getting more depressed.
The "O" has something the "V" does not.Here,if the system is really good,a "little better"(not really) becomes "ALOT BETTER"!REALLY!!!
The "O" does not have the subtle bleaching of timbre,that the "V" has.Mostly in crescendo,or tough to track stuff,with the "V".This is something almost all the better cartridges cannot get as "almost perfectly" as the "O" does!I think!!So far!!
The "O",to me,really clears up my question of whether my Graham 2.2's fluid/bearing resonant tinge,can ever be emeliorated.IT CAN,and DOES,with the "O"!!It is that good(the "O")!!
Inner details and subtlety are the best I have heard,in my limited experience of thirty five years in the hobby.
BUT the BIG deal,for me,was the FANTASTIC timbral/harmonic GLORY that this magnificent design has.BIG TIME!Talk about a roundness of texture.You really must hear this!
Spacial characteristics were by far the best I have experienced.Space between instruments,between players,the whole nine yards.AND I'M TRYING TO BE SUBTLE!
IT is THAT GOOD....My friend,and I went through multiple diaper changes yesterday.I MUST HAVE IT!!!!
Best(the cartridge too,btw),and sorry for my rant,but I could not help it.
Mark |
All,
I've been playing around with an Orpheus lately. It only has about 80 hours on it. I thought it was a lot more but it isn't. Therefore, I believe my observations are on a cartridge that isn't fully broken in.
It certainly sounds extremely clear, transparent, clean and open. This is probably the best way to describe it. In this regard it sounds exceptionally neutral. As a result, it doesn't sound "musical" like maybe a Koetsu or Benz does nor does it have the highest level of natural timbre. I would also say that it has a slight edge and would say that this is likely break-in related. It is getting smoother as time goes on. Therefore, it might become more "musical" or natural to the degree that the Temper is known for with full break-in. I will let you know if that is true.
I did find the cartridge sounds it's best at 47K and with minimal antiskate force of ~0.8g. At 100 ohms it does become smoother but it loses in the high end detail and soundstaging. Although the bass was initially lighter at 47K, raising the VTF and minimizing AS solved that issue. This cartridge has plenty of bass at 47K. It certainly sounds a lot less edgy and smoother, yet still clear and neutral, on the higher end of VTF levels. I'm up to 1.88g and will experiment with the higher values that were suggested here in the near future. At this point, I would also discourage using the recommended value of 1.8g. I haven't experimented with VTA. I have only been playing it with the tonearm parallel to the record surface. However I will give it a try later. With a past cartridge I did notice that the highs can become edgy at higher VTA.
Overall, I would say that it sounds CD like in its detail, clarity, quietness and cleanness. However, some of the magic of Analog is coming through already. I can see how someone might think this cartridge sounds a little on the analytical side. But realize, there is no harshness, glare or dynamic compression here. Nsgarch has postulated that the Tranny's require at least 150 hours of break-in. He also felt the Orpheus could probably require as much as 300 hours due to its lower compliance. In my experience, cartridges loose their edginess with break-in and open up more. Hopefully this will lead to a little more "musicality" and natural timbre as well.
As I said in the beginning, these observations are on a cartridge that is probably only 1/4 to 1/2 broken in. I will have to go back and experiment with loading again and optimize VTF and VTA further.
Andrew |
Bc3,glad you mentioned this.The distributor told my pal to run at 2.0 gms.I felt this should be a bit too high,without checking other weights,but was going to check all forces,starting at 1.8 gms,and moving up,from there.TIME CONSUMING,but mandatory!!The loading interests me,as I DID have my "V" at 60 and 100 for a time,but wound up liking dynamics and freq extremes better at 47!Maybe the "O" will want a different setting.OK by me.
Best! |
Anti-skate and azimuth are both very important with the Transfig styli. I have found the Orpheus likes to run a little bit heavier (1,95-2,0g.) than the Tempers, though I agree that 1.87 is exactly where I ended up with them. I would also try 100 ohms loading, as the cartridge is a bit better balanced there. |
Actually,right out of the box,I felt the "V" was considerably better,than the "Temper-Suprems"!I have never been a big fan of any cartridge requiring more than about fifty hrs of break-in.
Best! |
Mark, I can't seem to remember if you said what your initial impressions were of your V, but everyone including myself was a little surprised/disappointed with their Trannies at first, until after 50 hours or so. And it just happened again with someone else who purchased an O, so I'm not surprised your friend was underwhelmed ;--)
. |
Nsgarsh,basically,after doing technical stuff(guage reading of downforce,and all other measured parameters),we ALWAYS use a "set" series of LP's,to make final adjustments(everywhere)by ear.
I like to have a good idea where the cartridge "sets up",and then listen for a couple of hours(actually these sessions go for an average of six to eight hours),guaging the timbres of music,etc,on these discs.
I wind up having to "fotz" around with the fluid/downforce/vta,about a zillion times before the night is through.Guaranteed to take place this Friday.I'm already in the gym,training!
This time around,thanks to the great post by Doug Deacon,we will pay closer attention to antiskate,beyond a setting,on paper,or with the usual test records.
I cannot wait,for Friday!I LOVE checking out stuff that has the potential to improve my own set-up.With my friend,here,this is a perfect scenario!Yet,I will go in open minded,and independent of preconceived notions.I don't think I am actually as obsessed as some of my posts indicate.
BTW,as a little "tease"(just for fun,and believe me,I'm really not taking all this too seriously.Just hobby fun),my friend mounted the "O",yesterday.
Based on how much "over the top" raving he does,for almost any new "chacka",he gets,he is not overly impressed here!!
Of course,this means nothing,with break-in,and his very rough set-up,but I figure we can have a bit of a fun "cliffhanger",for the moment!
Best
Mark |
Mark, my thinking about VTF is somewhat similar to my experiences with SRA: that it's difficult to find any two of the same model cartridge, that are identical in either of those characteristics.
You can physically see zero SRA, if you have the patience and tools, so no problem there. But with VTF, there is no practical way to "see" the coil's position with respect to the magnetic flux field. However, its (the coil's) optimum position can be inferred by measuring the cartridge's output for a given test tone at slightly different VTF settings.
I do it using the VU meter on my tape deck, which is not refined enough a tool to find the actual highest output point. So what I do is look for the VTF settings just above and just below the (assumed) optimum that yields the same meter setting.
So for the Tranny for instance, we assume the optimum VTF would be (theoretically) 1.9 gm, halfway between 1.8 and 2.0 gm, according to the manufacturer. So let's say you take a meter reading of a 1 kHz tone (Cardas record) at VTF 1.8 gm, and you adjust the meter to give a readable number like 0 VU. Then you increase the VTF ABOVE the optimum to where you again get 0 VU. Let's say that turns out to be 2.1 gm. The average (between 1.8 and 2.1) would be 1.95 gm. And at 1.95 gm, the meter should read slightly higher than 0 VU.
Even using this crude method, I determined my Tranny W had the most output at around 2.0 gm (with slightly less output just above or below) That was just after break-in, and I'm going to do it again just to see if anything's changed -- it certainly wouldn't surprise me to find it now requires a little less VTF.
Of course VTF also affects tracking, but I've always held that if a cartridge isn't tracking properly anywhere within its specified VTF range, something's not right with the setup or with the cartridge itself.
. |
Nsgarsh,the electrician will be DONE,before I leave.I do want to get to my pal as early as possible.
The pre/phono is a fully maxxed out,and totally rebuilt(by Great Northern Sound)Audio Research SP-15.All new Black Gate caps/Siemens CCa's in phonostage.A KILLER unit!!!A total rebuild,over stock unit.
A question,for you,and if Bc3 is still lurking.....My friend tells me that the distributer recommendeds a tracking force at the 2 gram limit,as best.I never liked my Tranny beyond the highish 1.8's(1.82-1.87,for me).My friend has my exact arm/table.BTW,the distributer,also,has a 2.2.Just coincidence.
What tracking force do you use.Just curious,as obviously set-ups vary,but the recommendation of "not lower than 1.95" doesn't ring right,to me!
Best!
Mark |
Mark, if your friend has a 60 ohm load preset on his phono preamp (Manley?) that should be ideal since it's only 2 ohms from the optimum (62.5) I'd start at 47 just for comparison purposes, but I think he'll be happiest (after break-in etc.) with 60.
Nobody I know who has experience w/ MC carts has ever found one to settle in before 100 hours min. regardless of the published numbers. Tranny V/W owners I know agree their carts took about 125 hours befor they stopped changing, although I acknowledge the first big bump is at about 50 or 60 hours. I don't know why the manufacturers are so sloppy about this. It's the same with their published load recommendations, except for van den Hul, who actually does give optimum load values for most of his carts.
Are you really going to leave while your electrician is working on your house? Is he a relative?
. |
