No, the Supreme was an earlier cartridge with an aluminum tube cantilever and silver coil wire. The sound was very pleasant in the midrange, but the top end was a little "papery" (sorry, that is the only way I can think of to describe it, like a paper-cone driver trying to go too high up) The first couple years of production of the V (boron cantilever, back to copper wire) had permalloy coil formers, then came the W with ss-u (mu) material, then the V was changed to this material and gained about .1mV output, plus improved sound. I also did have two of the older supremes which, as you state, were nice at the time, but not in the same league as the v/w, and probably not quite as refined (though slightly more natural sounding) as the original AF-1. Over the years I have also tried numerous Benz' and Koetsu's, Spectral, aq7000, audionote, linn, kiseki...all the way back to the first cartridge that "opened my ears" back in the early '70's and actually got this cartridge passion started (after several empire's), the microacoustics (1001? 2002? or something...that was over 30 years ago). Never had a supex and missed the real early m/c revolution, as, even though there was a lot more info, the tonal balance just sounded too much "audiophile" (as I would now call it) and not enough like what I heard at the concert hall (sounded more like the sports arena...). Since the V/W series, though, I have been pretty settled in the Transfig camp, as just about everything else, no matter how great the positives, has too many negatives, usually a veering away from the timbral accuracy that got me there in the first place. On certain recordings, I long for the seductive sound of the Koetsu Rosewood Sig. Platinum, but that is mostly the need for a band-aid. Before the Orpheus, I also found myself thinking the explosive dynamics of the Magic Diamond would be nice, but, again, there seem to be phase/timing things going on with most of the yoked cartridges that bug me more and more over the years, as I get more and more used to hearing the Transfigs.
The piccolos I heard on the dealer setup. All the other comparisons are based on listening to my own Orpheus, which I have had since April, in my own system. My own system is quite a bit higher res than the dealer's (again, why the passage caught my attention), though, I have to say, I was very impressed with how musical that system sounded, considering its (relatively) modest (ok, let's face it, how nuts does this make us?) cost. Just haven't listened to anything with loud piccolo passages (not something I often listen for/to) on my own system. Though I will, now, just out of curiosity. |
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I am just not sure on this. To me, the output voltage increase on the V, when all that changed was the core seems some evidence of this. You are correct, though, on the Orpheus, that they have also increased magnet strength, as well as going to "ss-u-x" (whatever that is...) material for core, so that windings could be reduced from even the V. Listening outcome is, indeed, better S/N...sounds quieter in the groove and there is definitely more low-level resolution. Again, one could say objectively that the improvement is subtle, but there is a definite increase in "musical" as opposed to audiophile detail. Harmonic and spatial (venue space) clues that you often do not notice, but are part of live listening experience.
However, I must defer on technical aspects of whether core materials can increase electrical output. I only know from the ironless Benz cores that they can decrease it.
Either way, they have come a long way now from the AF-1 in terms of usable output. Also, the top end of the Orpheus now surpasses that of the AF-1, whereas one might still have argued that the V and W did not. The AF-1, at the time a major breakthrough, was also nowhere near the newer cartridges in correct timbral and dynamic areas. Still, it was the first time I heard a human voice on LP that sounded "real"...funny how those firsts stay with you. Like the first time I heard Quad 57's, or Klipschorns, or the big SoundLab's. |
There is no scarcity problem in the US. The distributor has cartridges in stock. If a dealer is telling your friend this is the case, he is misrepresenting for some reason. Could be that grey-market sources are scarce ($2750 for an Orpheus...), but one should also bear in mind that they will not be able to provide any warranty coverage (which those of you who have had any long term experience with delicate mc carts will know is very important--having a real dealer and a distributor who will take care of things if/when problems arise).
To quickly address some of the other issues mentioned above:
The V and W are not "just introduced". the V has been around since about 2000 and the W was introduced 3 years ago. The Orpheus design has been in progress for almost 2 years, with numerous delays.
While the two look fairly similar on paper, in cartridges, where they are mechanically transducing incredibly large amounts of information at radically high speeds, the slightest differences can be huge sonically.
I would agree that the Tempers are among the best in the world and did not expect much difference...some slight improvements here and there. To some extent, this is true, except that the improvements are substantial and in almost every performance category. More macro-dynamics, slightly improved micro-dynamics (always the Temper's strong point), considerably more resolution, though with a somewhat more relaxed and natural-sounding presentation (yes, a seeming contradiction). More transparency. Quieter. Deeper and better bass articulation. So far, I have not found a record that will saturate the high-frequencies, including piccolo blasts. Tone and timbre are dead-on neutral. At first, I thought the balance might be slightly warmer than the W, but, upon extended listening, realized that the balance is the same, there is just a bit less smearing on top (which tends to whiten up the sound) and there is more resolution in the mids/lower-mids, which allows you to hear more harmonic texture in that range, which comes across as warmer. The main noticable difference is a musical one, however. I find myself following rhythmic and emotional lines in the music that I had never noticed before.
The Orpheus is a significant improvement over the Temper series. However, if you have a Temper V/W that is still performing well, you might want to put that money somewhere else in the chain, for example, a better tonearm or table, or phono stage, as these things can effect very large changes in the character and quality of a system. |
sirspeedy, I wouldn't say it means NOTHING... all of the cartridges mentioned are truly wonderful. What a luxury of riches at this point in time, when analog is supposed to be dead and buried...the technological and performance gains in cartridges/turntables/tonearms since 1980 (Sony Discman...) far, far outstrips the gains made in the digital realm. That is, analog started out way better and the delta for analog improvement in the intervening 25 years has been quite a bit bigger... I find it amazing that so many still pour so much creative energy and passion into refining a technology pronounced "dead" a quarter century ago. And bless them all for doing so, since we get to reap the benefits. jcarr, the Suganos, Matsudaira, aj vdH, Albert Lukascheck, Seiji Yoshioka...and these guys do it for love of music. I don't think any of them are getting rich off of phono cartridges.
You are correct that, at this level, it becomes a matter of taste and/or system-matching. My taste also runs toward the Transfiguration balance, but I could very easily live with/love any number of others (Dynav., AirTight, ZYX, big Koetsu's...they all have their strengths and attractions.
btw, the U.S. distributor has several Orpheus in stock and has not been backordered since April. |
Surprised me too, which is why I remembered it and mentioned it... I suspect it is a combination of ability to track and no saturation. System was fairly modest and at a local dealer: all Quad electronics, the new (Chinese) tall Quad speakers, Basis 2200/Vector. He also had the new Airtight cartridge (I believe this is built by My Sonic, but Mr. Miura of Airtight was very involved in the design), which was also wonderful and could do this too, however, that system was much more money (SME 30, Avalon Diamond Eidolon, Wavestream electronics mostly).
Partly related, in response to ngarsh's discussion of resistance/output, I think much is due to the new coil former material. Immutable claims that the coil former itself is responsible for some gain in output. Perhaps jcarr could verify whether this is possible, though it makes sense. I know one of the drawbacks of the theoretically great idea of the ruby coil former in the Benz Ruby/LP/Cardasheart was the fact that without any magnetics, they have to use a bunch of windings to achieve a usable output. Yes, he avoids eddy currents, the moving mass is exceedingly low, but internal resistance is fairly high. The earliest ruby's from Benz (1.8mV ?) were wonderful, but needed a lot of phonostage oompf and quiet. If my years of listening to tube amps taught me anything, it was that magnetics are THE most important thing...acrosound, peerless...to today, with the tango, tamura and viva transformers, using permalloy and amorphous core materials. This was the reason for the big initial jump in performance, I think, when the W arrived, as it got some of it extra output (according to Immutable) from the new coil former material (the V originally used permalloy). Later (post 2004) V's switched to this material too, bringing output up from .25 to .34, with no change in internal resistance. This also brought the V back to a position of expected sonic superiority (very slight) over the W (given the right phonostage), which the W had held before the change. Just like the apparent edge that alnico seems to hold over other magnets...hard to explain, but easy to hear (sweetness of the big Dynavector, the Olympus from Lyra (this only by hearsay...), the phy-hp drivers...)
Subtle/not subtle? I would say that the improvements in most of the categories of performance I mentioned are relatively subtle (except macrodynamics). Also, upon first listen, the difference is relatively subtle, because the Orpheus is a more subtle/refined/natural sounding cartridge, but, the sum of all those subtle improvements brings about a very un-subtle net effect in terms of musical and emotional connection. You will see/hear.
nope, not Eddie... |
Good tape always kills other sources, especially if they have access to master dubs. This was an old David Manley trick at shows, who used to have access to a lot of 1st gen. dubs. Also, the little, well-put-together systems at shows have always, in my opinion, outshone the big-bucks, big-size systems. Those little hotel rooms just do not work with full-size gear and the hi-res nature of of the speakers becomes their worst enemy. A well-balanced, musical small system just always comes as huge relief after walking around being assaulted by massive, hi-res stuff that was never meant for a 12x16 room.
Surprisingly, even those crappy 7" commercial, high-speed, mass-produced tapes from the 60's and 70's that you see occasionally in the odd record store, are really good, even though they are a bit limited in the upper frequencies. They have a smoothness and naturalness that the best LP playback is just beginning to approach in the last few years with these new generations of tables, arms and carts. But, if you think finding good old records is tough...try finding old tapes, which also have the drawback of deterioration and breaking. Still, with the kind of bucks guys are now spending on tt's, you could put together and have rebuilt some of the great old Studers, Stellavox, and Ampex tube machines that, with a good tape, will make our beloved tt's sound pretty lame.
Heresy of heresies...I think this might be an area where there is hope for the future in digital, once they can deliver very high bandwidth (much higher than now) recordings over the cable. I heard some 1st gen master dubs off a hard drive last year that really made me rethink my constant disdain for the "digital devil." |
Jj, I know exactly what you mean. I actually have had a thing with my right ear that seems to resonate with real high freq. and high vol. blasts (piccolos, irish pipes)...feels like it is popping in and out. High frequencies are my hot-spot and I can't stand it when they are wrong...at live venues, I constantly am stuffing my ears with plugs or napkins, or whatever is available when things get loud and shrill. But, that is live music, which, even if poorly balanced and sucked-out in the midrange, if amplified, is still live and still trounces the best systems I have ever heard when it comes to emotional connection to the music. A couple of weeks ago I was at a Santana concert at an outdoor venue with really awful PA balance... napkins stuffed in the ears, bitching every 20 minutes that the sound guy should be fired for steeling (sp. error intentional) the magic coming from Carlos Santana's Gibson...all that, plus the 20-something, midriff baring dancing narcissist women in front that made it hard to see or concentrate on the real performance...still, an experience that no stereo could ever duplicate. We spend countless hours and ridiculous amounts of money and achieve a sound at home that is objectively superior to what we hear in concert, in areas of correct tonal balance, timbre...blah, blah, blah... but never even come close to the joy of feeling that thud in the chest, or soaring extended notes that live performances revel in, even though recorded versions of the music do not allow such "excesses"... Reminds me of the problem I have with Glenn Gould's decision to walk away from live performances in favor of the "control" possible with recorded venues...but where is the life? The irony there was, they spent countless dollars and hours trying to damp out his own live exhuberance (a serial hummer...) at the keyboard on recordings, which he could not suppress, that would have been either inaudible, or welcome at a live performance.
Sorry, did not at all wish to undervalue the achievements of Mr. King at the vtv show. Rather, he should be applauded for the passion he has maintained in his work with tape machines. This is probably an indicator of his knowledge of music and that it just sounds more alive through his rebuilt Stellavox than just about any other medium. And, if he is aware of this, it is no surprise that he could put together a very musical small system that works well in a hotel room.
I remember returning repeatedly to a room at a mid-90's Stereophile show to relax and lose myself in the music being produced by Victor Tiscareno of Audio Prism with his little 70 watt stereo amp driving a pair of the original Totem 1's. Lovely. Sounded (if on a slightly smaller scale) like what I heard in the concert hall with chamber music, or solo acoustic guitar, or vocal... Of course, that year, Wilson Audio won "best sound" of show, even though it was totally out of whack, overly huge, harmonically challenged...and hurt my ears. Not a mention of the AudioPrism/Totem room, even though, to my ears, it was no contest. Taste? Perhaps. However, if you spend a lot of time at live events, you know what musical instruments sound like (Jj, as a musician knows, certainly, better than I) and what usually passes for high-end audio ain't it. Sometimes live music hurts your ears, sometimes it is far more delicate than any stereo can be. But "we strive on, against the stream..." ever hoping to get closer to the magic that a well-practiced hack with a guitar and a stool can achieve on any give Wednesday night at an open mic. What fun... |
Anti-skate and azimuth are both very important with the Transfig styli. I have found the Orpheus likes to run a little bit heavier (1,95-2,0g.) than the Tempers, though I agree that 1.87 is exactly where I ended up with them. I would also try 100 ohms loading, as the cartridge is a bit better balanced there. |
I have settled in at about 1.97g. Amazing how consistent these numbers tend to be with the Transfigs. I always ended up at 1.87 with the Tempers. sirspeedy, your remarks, including hyperbole, are just what I expected, as they reflect my own sense of the Orpheus. A lot of "little betters" adding up synergistically to a big step closer to the heart of the music. Though, I tend to understate, in order to allow people to come to their own conclusions. Also, cartridges are such system/taste/setup dependent things, one just never knows. I do know, however, that those who like what the Tempers have done well over the years will absolutely love the Orpheus. It is not so "hi-fi" as some of the others mentioned, but, if you have spent lots of time going to the symphony, or jazz clubs, or (now, finally, with the Orpheus) rock concerts, it will sound very familiar to you. |
Wow, I have been travelling and have not seen this thread in some time. I am concerned by some of what I have read regarding Andrew's Orpheus. From the descriptions of the comparison to the Univ. I have to say that it sounds as though the cartridge either was not set up correctly, or is defective. First, so that there is no feeling of dissembling on my part, I should identify myself. As my nickname implies, I am certainly not trying to hide my identity, which Andrew correctly surmised rather early on. I import Transfiguration into the US and joined this thread primarily to correct some misinformation regarding availability from the distributor, etc. I believe Mark will bear out the fact that I described the sound of the Orpheus as accurately as I could, which is how I do things.
Andrew called me several times prior to his purchase and subsequently informed me that he bought the cartridge "slightly used" from someone in Europe. I cannot know without hearing it, but from the description by Doug and Andrew, I can say that that Orpheus was not behaving as I have heard it perform. The areas that Doug addressed in particular as weak points (bass, tracking, resolution) are, if anything, the Orpheus' greatest strengths. I am wondering if his cartridge did not suffer some damage, either in shipping, or prior to sale. This does happen from time to time, and, as we all know, these cartridges are very delicate. Unfortunately, this is also the downside of purchasing used or grey-market cartridges, as they have no guarantee, or dealer/distributor support.
However, it is very possible that it is simply a setup issue. "Smearing" and lack of resolution could be due to misalignment, improper VTA or VTF, or azimuth (which is very important with the Ogura stylus). Also, as I have said, VTF of 1.95-2g is important, and if you look at the image hifi review that Andrew posted, you will also see that the cartridge is quite sensitive to load. In my system, I have found 100 ohms to be optimal, though up another 100 or down 50 might work better in a given system. However, if you find things sound better at 47K, or even 2K, I would say there are problems, either with the cartridge, or with the system.
Also, to set the record straight on another point I noticed in the thread, I do not use a Graham 2.2. I used to have one, but am now using a Basis Vector, which seems a synergistic match with the Orpheus. I always liked my 2.2, though, and expect that it would work fine with the Orpheus, as it did with my first 3 Tempers. As you might know, Transfiguration builds the Nightingale cartridge for Graham, so he certainly believes in some compatibility there.
In any event, the sound experience described by Andrew and Doug just does not match either my experience with the Orpheus, nor that of anyone else I have spoken to. Generally, I get excited phone calls from former Temper owners, telling me how much better it is than either I told them it would, or than they expected. Even though he did not buy it in the US, I would offer to take a listen to Andrew's cartridge to confirm whether I think something might be wrong with it, or whether it might just be a setup or cartridge/arm compatibility issue. I have not heard an Orpheus in the Triplanar. The slightly stiffer compliance might possibly be an issue with a ball-bearing arm, though, the new damper seems to more than offset potential tracking issues I might have anticipated. In my experience, the Orpheus is the best tracking cartridge Transfiguration has ever made and is among the best I have heard.
all this said, I would not dare to claim that it is superior to the Universe, which is a fine cartridge indeed. It may also not have quite the level of filigreed detail the Univ. pulls out of a groove. I notice many of the things cited that the Univ. excelled at over the Orpheus were details that are not necessarily relevant to the musical experience, though, I can assure you, on my system, you can very easily hear the three distinct voices on the "Trio" album. That this was difficult with Andrew's Orpheus, leads me to believe that something is simply wrong with either his cartridge or his arm/table.
I am happy to answer any technical questions regarding cartridge issues and will continue to weigh in, only if I think misinformation needs to be addressed, or in response to technical issues.
I think it can be beneficial to have access to an expert (on certain things) when needed and offer what expertise I have. Looking back, I fear I may have chased away jcarr, when I assumed everyone knew who he was (again, not trying to hide his identity in a nickname), because he is one of the true experts out there in the knowledge and construction of phono cartridges.
I also just had to speak up, when it was claimed that the distributor was out of Orpheus cartridges, while I was looking at several on the shelf... I suspect this had to do with some lack of grey-market availability, which is another issue I would be happy to discuss sometime. |
