Hello,
A couple of other thoughts:
* You obviously do not have a continuous ground through to the receptcle. If you unscrew the receptcle from the box and leave it in free space then your ratshack tester will show a missing ground. I don't know your electrical code (I'm in Canada) but I understand that in major centres like Chicago and probably NYC conduit is required in commercial/multiunit applications for fire code and protection from pests. If you are comfortable you can mechanically bond a ground wire from the recepticle to the recepticle box with a screw.You'll still have a problem on the other end though with perhaps poor bonding of the conduit to the box... the whole system circa 1955 may not be grounded anyway? An electrician's advice is good here if you are not savy in opening up your main panel for a peek.
* You could try running an extension from your AC outlet to the Io just for fun and see the results.
* If the AC line works (or even if it does not) and you can make the investment in one dedicated circuit back to the panel then this may be worth it to eliminate clicks and pops from other appliances. Decorative panel mold conduit is available to make the run as unobtrusive as possible.
* You are running the Io full out with possibly an improper ground in NYC (RF hell I imagine) so you may have to back off a bit. This is a function of the overall sensitivity of your system from cartridge to speakers and the room interface. I'm thinking this is your real problem!!!
* Try eliminating your power conditioner on the other equipment and see what happens to the hum... make sure you have no other inputs tape,tuner etc connected to your pre. They may be causing a groudloop via the common buss on the pre back to the Io.
* Start swapping cables L-->R and tubes L--R... If you have known good tubes for the PS supply swap them in. If it bothers you enough and you don't want to ship the unit for testing then perhaps buy a complete tube set and try swapping them in (for god's sake mark them first so you don't confuse yourself...ask me how I know)...man I'm getting tired just thinking about it!
The good news is the Io is very silent on my system so I know you can get there with this equipment with proper wire dressing, grounds, and good tubes.
All the best |
Interesting thanks Nkj.
Yes, I suspect there is something off with the receptacle grounding. There is no ground wire, but there may be an armored cable or conduit - the instructions said that the receptacle could be grounded if it made mechanical connection with the box as you screwed it in.
This sounded screwy to me, but then the fact that my AC polarity checker said that the grounding was fine made me think that in fact this had grounded the receptacle.
Perhaps having an electrician in is the next step? Always pricey and frequently unreliable in Manhattan...
Patrick |
Hi, I have the Io Sig w/VC and 2 supplies. I live in a very RF rich environment near a hospital. On one occassion when trying different ICs I did discover some RF bleed through.No hum with the IO or subsequent RF problems.
Your IC's must be very well shielded and you must exhaustively experiment with dressing the leads and positioning with equipment and try different brands.While not the best, Musical fidelity make a type with RF ferrite clamps on the cable...it may be worth a try to see the result. In the past when I had a Counterpoint head amp this problem would drive me crazy.
Fourtunately the Counterpoint weighed in at about 5lbs so you could wave it in the air and find a good position. Hard to do with the Io.
Also make sure your connectors are scrupuously clean. Any oxidation and the connectors will act as diodes in a cyrstal radio singing through your system.I like the Caig products here not comfortable using any of the silver based contact enhancers as they can be difficult to clean out of the connectors if it does not work out.
I doubt that your electrical system is properly grounded if you had to add new grounded receptcles to replace 2 prong ones. If you have armoured cable or conduit(maybe in NYC) then the outer sheild/conduit may be acting as a poor ground back to the main panel. Get a electrician to seen if you have a "separate" ground wire back to the panel and properly bonded to the neutral at the box. Old vinyl gave good advice on disconnecting and swapping Ic's to discover if the problem is the Io or the amp for hum... working from the source forward to determine the possible cause...don't ignore the dressing of your tonearm cable.
This is exhausting and thankless work but it can be done..goodluck! |
Hi guys
I've been travelling in Europe on biz but all these suggestions are extremely helpful. I might also have a bad tube somewhere since the problem is worse in right channel than left when phono is selected, so will try swapping those (maybe the EL-34s in PS) s well as PS cables. Wait an hour before turn-off and turn-on - sounds definitely right with the Io.
The radio reception is there even with the Io not selected. I think it's a cable acting as an antenna somewhere.
I turn off all dimmer switches and halogens when listening to music for the reasons given above.
Will report back, and also Jim White's thoughts when I get him this week.
Best
Patrick |
PatrickArmory,
Congratulations. I thought I wrote exhausting posts but yours beats mine by a nose!
I don't have an Aesthetix but I do have an EP15A (love it). I too have a hard time imagining it damaging anything, but then again I had a hard time imagining it making any component sound notably worse - until I heard it happen.
My EP15A improves the sound of every component I own, but when a friend brought his Berning ZH270 over it was clearly happier being plugged straight into the wall. Our line voltage is anything but stable, thus the Exact Power, but Berning advises against line conditioners for this amp and in this case he was right.
Does that apply to your Aesthetix? I have no clue!
P.S. The Exact Power will not filter out noise from dimmer switches, transformers, etc. I spoke to the EP's designer himself. His recommendation for dimmers was to keep trying different ones until you stumble on one that's quiet in your environment. Not scientific but it worked. We also had to relocate the transformer for our 12V ceiling lights that backwash the wall behind the equipment rack. The hum was unavoidable with the transformer within six feet.
Star grounding works well for us. Worth a try and costs peanuts to implement. |
Good point Jafox. I don't wait an hour though. Also remember to first disconnect the AC power cable before disconnecting the power supply umbilical.
One other thought about the hum. My SME arm had a DIN-RCA Music Metre silver interconnect that was fine in the first setup. When I moved, this cable picked up hum in the new setup. I tried several well regarded cables and settled on the Nordost Quattro Fil. By far, it had the best shielding (lowest hum). Turns out that it matched ny listening preferences best too.
One way to test this theory would be to simply disconnect the phono leads in to the Io and note if the hum is still there. The next step is to disconnect the hum in to the amo and note if the hum is still there. |
Just a warning here: I understand that you MUST take great care when swapping the power umbilicals here. When you power the Io down and then disconnect the power cables between the Audio and PS chassis, you MUST wait at least 20 minutes before reconnecting these cables or the solid-state regulators in the PS will be destroyed. I tend to take a more conservative approach and wait an hour. |
For my house wiring, the 20 A circuit is dedicated (only the audio outlets, 4 WattGate). They are "star" wired. Yes, the AC+, AC- and ground all run directly back to the circuit breaker panel. The house is grounded with 2 ten foot copper rods and is also tied to the cold water pipes. The breaker panel is 220V, so there are AC breaker on both sides of the 220V (different phases). I made sure that the heavy duty equipment in the house is on the other phase from the audio gear to further isolate it.
Sounds like you need AC isolation (such as the ultimate outlet, it will remove the nasty noise from other devices on the same circuit). The Thor would also allow all devices to operate from the same power and ground (but it is quite expensive and will not help if the ground is not good).
If you converted from 2 wire to 3 wire plugs .... do tell ... where did you get the ground wire??
If you are getting radio reception through the Io, try some shielding to get rid of the noise (such as cryotweaks http://www.cryotweaks.com/product.asp?pf_id=ERS).
For tubes, search around, there is plenty written up. From my experience the best bet is Telefunken ECC83 (12AX7) in the V1 & V2 positions. Get a good NOS matched pair, and there are still places to get good ones.
You can always try swapping the power supply cables to see (well hear) if the noise switches channels. Then at least you'll know whether it is in the power supply or the phono stage. The next thing to do is swap the tubes in right and left channel in the phono stage and/or power supply.
Oh heck, just go all out and get the second power supply. Swap out the EL-34's for some KT-66 and let 'er rip.
Enjoy! |
P.S. I've heard amazing things about the Nordost Thor, which the reviewer on whose recommendation I impulsively bought th EPA uses it in between his equipment and the EP15... 'course this would still bring Jim's objections into play...
Patrick |
Hi oldvinyl,
Thanks for the detailed response. I use the XLR outputs too and love them. I don't have the version with the line level input (and volume controls) - I run the Io to a BAT linestage. No CD player in the system at all, as a matter of fact...
I have wondered whether the hum is intrinsic to the Io, but I didn't notice it much in my prior location. Of course, I might have a bum tube, especially because it is more noticeable in the right channel. But the right channel is also picking up a radio station distantly at certain times of day, so it could just be the physical placement of the gear (which I'm loath to experiment with for obvious reasons, even though it might be the simplest solution!)
Both the EP15A and the Io Sig are in the same outlet, and although there are separate circuits in the house, including an air conditioner outlet that must be clearly separated, I can sometimes hear a pop through my speakers when my wine chiller cycles on and off (not since I've installed the EP15A), and a definite nasty sound when I switch on a high-intensity lamp that's supposedly in a different circuit (even after the EP15A was in the system).
In any case, there's no way for the EP15A's power cord to stretch to an outlet on one of the other circuits.
So the electrical system is far from the best. I own my apartment but wonder if upgrading just the internal apartment wiring will solve the problem - seems like the whole building needs it (built in 1955).
I installed my 3-prong outlets myself - the apartment only had 2-prong when I got it! My Rat Shack AC checker says polarity is fine and grounding is fine on my outlets.
All your 20A outlets have grounding wire running right back to the box? (or a spike in your backyard - I've heard that's the best - unfortunately there is no backyard 110 feet in the air). Impressive.
The one thing I really don't want to do is send my Io Sig and PS (just one thank God) back to Aesthetix - they've gone twice and though I LOVE them to death, (1) I can't do without them even for a short term - I only listen to vinyl and once you've heard the Io anything else is a letdown and (2) the pain and peril of shipping these massive but fragile units 3000 miles and back just drives me insane!
Maybe I should just experiment with retubing, but that gets into hairshirt quality audio of which the Io already has so much of... I've done the NOS tubes (are they REALLY NOS? is your tube checker calibrated? is your dealer honest? is the hype on brand X tube from 1950 really justified? oh no, your tube doesn't have the -C code on it for military grade? and the rest of it) -- it's a road which I really don't want to travel down!
Plus the RFI in the right channel makes me think it's placement... makes me hope it's placement.......
I am running the Io flat out right now. I know I could go down to 72 dB instead of the 80 dB and probably conquer most of the problem right there. But (1) I'm eager to get rid of the problem whether it's very audible or nearly inaudible, and (2) I like the extra oomph of 80 dB with my 103R... it gives off slightly better output than other samples, not into overload range or distortion I don't think, but man I like the sound.
So there you go, complete audiophilia nervosa summed up in one post!
Best
Patrick |
Do you have the Io plugged in to the same outlet as the EP 15A? If you use separate outlets, do you know if they are on the same circuit (breaker)? This may be hard to determine in an apartment building. Also, the ground may be flakey. You can always get a Rat Shack outlet tester.
In my system, I ran a dedicated 20 A circuit and have all the outlets "star" wired. No voltage drops or ground loops. With the Io, there may be some 60 Hz hum. This can be from inbalanced tube sections or bleed through on the heaters. With the gain that the Io has (70 dB or so) it is near impossible to get rid of all the noise.
You can achieve the "star" wiring with a outlet strip such as the PS Audio Power Directo, their Juice Barr, the Nordost "Thor", or one of the IsoTek products. You can also make one up yourself with some outlets and wire.
The "star" wiring will eliminate the ground loop. If you use the line level input on the Io for a CD player (or any other device), I have found that to be a source of ground loops and hum when listening to vinyl. So, when I play a record, I unplug the AC power to my CD player (which is plugged in to the Io).
I have also found that using the XLR outputs from the Io drops the noise floor and any residual hum.
Chasing hum is thankless, good luck.
oldvinyl |
Thanks guys, perhaps I should clarify -
Oldvinyl, I already own both the Io Sig and the ExactPower. The EP15A powers everything in my system except for the Io Sig. I fear that this may be creating a ground loop, because both the EP15A and the Io are grounded, and there is more noise through the Io than with other inputs (ear to the speaker style, but still).
Jafox, I used to own Audio Magic and traded up to the ExactPower.... the power in my neighborhood, not to mention ambient noise, RFI, EMF is exceedingly bad... I'm in a tall apartment building in midtown Manhattan. The EP15A is often called a power regenerator but is actually an AC sub-cycle regulator... a small class D amp inside does generate a sinewave, but all the EP15A does is compare the incoming AC signal to this sinewave - it does not substitute its own sinewave to the incoming AC - instead, it corrects the incoming AC to match the perfect sinewave generated by the internal amp. Such is the theory anyway!
but you are right that I should just call Jim White and ask him about it. Btw, I loved the AM products, great products (I had the Stealth and mini (non-digital) Stealth), but I needed stronger stuff where I live.
Patrick |
Hello, Here is a thread I started back in August 2005 when I purchased an Audio Magic Power Line Conditioner. As a Callisto and Io owner, I was quite impressed with the benefits from the AM PLC. I ramble on a lot in my post with the detailed benefits for each component in my system. Maybe the specifics on the Aesthetix models here will be of benefit to you. As for why Jim White advises against a PLC, why not call him and find out the reason. Perhaps he never tried the AM, Hydras, IsoClean and Sound Application models, to name a few. But I would be cautious with an "regenerating" device. John |
I use a PS Audio Ultimate Outlet (20A) which is simply a 1:1 isolation transformer. There is no restriction of dynamics. It cleaned up some grunge coming in on my AC power lines.
Also, I use PS Audio power cords, they really helped lower the noise floor and increase dynamics.
I don't know how many power supplies you use with your Io, remember that each one draws about 150W. A device such as the EP-15A should be sized accordingly.
Any way to try before you buy or get a money back guarantee?
Enjoy the music.
Oldvinyl |
