Well, that didn't work.
Still the same chuff-chuff-chuff with buzz, louder in one channel than in the other.
I'm gonna move the Tung-Sols to V3 and V4 next. *sigh*... I have a feeling that this unit's going back to Aesthetix for a checkup.
Patrick |
Strange and surprising results
So I tried some of changes mentioned in my last post - with surprising results. The most important change in my mind was plugging the Aesthetix PS into the ExactPower. This however meant moving around a bunch of equipment, and I realized that I'd have to switch the 2 preamps with the Aesthetix PS and the amp in order for the plug to reach. This of course also meant that the ExactPower was further away from the low-signal components, as recommended by ExactPower themselves... so I was killing two birds with one stone. (Or doing two tweaks at once - an audiophile no-no of course!)
Anyway, did the switch, and realized at the same time I could no longer use my speaker-level inputs to my sub. They wouldn't reach to the new amp position. So I checked my sub's manual (ACI Titan) and realized - again to my surprise, RTFM! that ACI prefers you to use line-level inputs, not speaker-level. So I ran a spare pare of shielded interconnects from the second set of main outs on my linestage to the sub.
Fired up the system and it sounded dead. No bass - though if I turned up the sub far enough I could feel the woofer move. Strange I thought, it must somehow have gotten out of phase with the rest of the system. I switched the sub's phase switch to 180 degrees and presto, bass. (Obviously I have an inverting component or two in my system, but am not sure which, and am none the wiser after examining the manuals). In fact, much better sub-bass than I'd had with the speaker-level inputs. So I had a totally unexpected benefit from the changes!
In addition, the radio station had entirely vanished from speakers! Yay! But I was still getting the chuff-chuff-chuff sounds, and occasionally a very low hum or buzz (varying at different times). I moved the ExactPower even further away from the other components and this improved, but it's still there a bit.
But there was still something un-musical about the presentation... I didn't find myself drawn into my favorite songs as much, and the soundstage seemed slightly off.
So I powered everything down, unplugged the Io Sig from the ExactPower, plugged it back into the wall, powered back up the Io, waited the allotted 10 minutes for the PS to stabilize, then one by one powered up each of the other components.
And what do you know - the music's back, and the radio station is still gone. Seems it WAS position of the components - as Nkj suspected - that was the major culprit here. And Jim White's basic dictum - plug the Io directly into the wall - is vindicated.
I still have the chuff-chuff-chuff and hum to deal with, but everything I've listened to so far since this final change has been way more musical:
- Glenn Gould, Goldberg Variations (original Columbia ML 6-eye)
- Sibelius - Symphony No. 2 - Barbirolli (EMI UK colored postage stamp)
- Feeles - The Good Earth (Coyote/Twin Tone)
- Cat Stevens - Teaser and the Firecat (A&M brown label - prefer this to Island)
Will continue to report back. I have just the chuff-chuff-chuff and hum now.... in both speakers, slightly different sounding in each ... MUCH less annoying than the FM.
I think the next step will be to get the shielded umbilicals from Jim.
Thanks for everyone's patience during this typical audiophile journey, full of mistakes and wrong turnings but ultimately a happy ending... |
Btw... I took this opportunity to add pictures of each of my components to my system profile, in case anyone wants to check out all this stuff we've been discussing... click the system link below.
Best
Patrick |
Thanks guys, perhaps I should clarify -
Oldvinyl, I already own both the Io Sig and the ExactPower. The EP15A powers everything in my system except for the Io Sig. I fear that this may be creating a ground loop, because both the EP15A and the Io are grounded, and there is more noise through the Io than with other inputs (ear to the speaker style, but still).
Jafox, I used to own Audio Magic and traded up to the ExactPower.... the power in my neighborhood, not to mention ambient noise, RFI, EMF is exceedingly bad... I'm in a tall apartment building in midtown Manhattan. The EP15A is often called a power regenerator but is actually an AC sub-cycle regulator... a small class D amp inside does generate a sinewave, but all the EP15A does is compare the incoming AC signal to this sinewave - it does not substitute its own sinewave to the incoming AC - instead, it corrects the incoming AC to match the perfect sinewave generated by the internal amp. Such is the theory anyway!
but you are right that I should just call Jim White and ask him about it. Btw, I loved the AM products, great products (I had the Stealth and mini (non-digital) Stealth), but I needed stronger stuff where I live.
Patrick |
Hi oldvinyl,
Thanks for the detailed response. I use the XLR outputs too and love them. I don't have the version with the line level input (and volume controls) - I run the Io to a BAT linestage. No CD player in the system at all, as a matter of fact...
I have wondered whether the hum is intrinsic to the Io, but I didn't notice it much in my prior location. Of course, I might have a bum tube, especially because it is more noticeable in the right channel. But the right channel is also picking up a radio station distantly at certain times of day, so it could just be the physical placement of the gear (which I'm loath to experiment with for obvious reasons, even though it might be the simplest solution!)
Both the EP15A and the Io Sig are in the same outlet, and although there are separate circuits in the house, including an air conditioner outlet that must be clearly separated, I can sometimes hear a pop through my speakers when my wine chiller cycles on and off (not since I've installed the EP15A), and a definite nasty sound when I switch on a high-intensity lamp that's supposedly in a different circuit (even after the EP15A was in the system).
In any case, there's no way for the EP15A's power cord to stretch to an outlet on one of the other circuits.
So the electrical system is far from the best. I own my apartment but wonder if upgrading just the internal apartment wiring will solve the problem - seems like the whole building needs it (built in 1955).
I installed my 3-prong outlets myself - the apartment only had 2-prong when I got it! My Rat Shack AC checker says polarity is fine and grounding is fine on my outlets.
All your 20A outlets have grounding wire running right back to the box? (or a spike in your backyard - I've heard that's the best - unfortunately there is no backyard 110 feet in the air). Impressive.
The one thing I really don't want to do is send my Io Sig and PS (just one thank God) back to Aesthetix - they've gone twice and though I LOVE them to death, (1) I can't do without them even for a short term - I only listen to vinyl and once you've heard the Io anything else is a letdown and (2) the pain and peril of shipping these massive but fragile units 3000 miles and back just drives me insane!
Maybe I should just experiment with retubing, but that gets into hairshirt quality audio of which the Io already has so much of... I've done the NOS tubes (are they REALLY NOS? is your tube checker calibrated? is your dealer honest? is the hype on brand X tube from 1950 really justified? oh no, your tube doesn't have the -C code on it for military grade? and the rest of it) -- it's a road which I really don't want to travel down!
Plus the RFI in the right channel makes me think it's placement... makes me hope it's placement.......
I am running the Io flat out right now. I know I could go down to 72 dB instead of the 80 dB and probably conquer most of the problem right there. But (1) I'm eager to get rid of the problem whether it's very audible or nearly inaudible, and (2) I like the extra oomph of 80 dB with my 103R... it gives off slightly better output than other samples, not into overload range or distortion I don't think, but man I like the sound.
So there you go, complete audiophilia nervosa summed up in one post!
Best
Patrick |
P.S. I've heard amazing things about the Nordost Thor, which the reviewer on whose recommendation I impulsively bought th EPA uses it in between his equipment and the EP15... 'course this would still bring Jim's objections into play...
Patrick |
|
Hi guys
I've been travelling in Europe on biz but all these suggestions are extremely helpful. I might also have a bad tube somewhere since the problem is worse in right channel than left when phono is selected, so will try swapping those (maybe the EL-34s in PS) s well as PS cables. Wait an hour before turn-off and turn-on - sounds definitely right with the Io.
The radio reception is there even with the Io not selected. I think it's a cable acting as an antenna somewhere.
I turn off all dimmer switches and halogens when listening to music for the reasons given above.
Will report back, and also Jim White's thoughts when I get him this week.
Best
Patrick |
Interesting thanks Nkj.
Yes, I suspect there is something off with the receptacle grounding. There is no ground wire, but there may be an armored cable or conduit - the instructions said that the receptacle could be grounded if it made mechanical connection with the box as you screwed it in.
This sounded screwy to me, but then the fact that my AC polarity checker said that the grounding was fine made me think that in fact this had grounded the receptacle.
Perhaps having an electrician in is the next step? Always pricey and frequently unreliable in Manhattan...
Patrick |
Thank Nkj. I just opened the receptacle and checked ground with the ratshack tester - and it is just as you describe - grounded when the receptacle is screwed into the conduit box, not when unplugged.
I was going to run a wire from the ground screw to the box as you also suggest, but my multimeter shows continiuty from the ground screw to the receptacle ends, which are firmly screwed to the conduit box anyway, so I don't see the point of a separate wire. Effectively, screwing the receptacle to the box grounds the box, as the ratshack tester shows.
Unfortunately I don't have the skills to check to see whether the conduit is firmly grounded to the circuit breaker box at the other end. It sound like I need to bring an electrician here, and in fact I have been considering a dedicated line for some time.
For now I'm going to replace the receptacle as it was (unless you really tell me a wire from the ground screw on the receptacle to a screw on the conduit box is somehow different from the (ground-continuous) receptacle-ends being firmly screwed onto the box).
Next I'm going to try swapping the Io's power umbilicals, and then the EL-34s, to see if that makes any difference.
I take your point about running the Io all-out in NYC. I probably could use the 72 db setting as well. But the 80 db setting sounds so good in my current system that I'm reluctant to switch.
I haven't been able to get in touch with Jim White yet - he's a hard man to get hold of!
Patrick |
Just realized there's no point in swapping the EL-34s if swapping the power umbilicals makes no difference. And swapping the umbilicals makes no difference - the RF is more in the right channel.
I've just realized two things:
- moving the Io PS power cord around reduces the hum, but not the RF
- the RF problem and the hum may be in the Io tubes. I guess V1/V2 are the candidates for replacement. Perhaps I should try swapping the channel pairs first?
Patrick |
Nkj: re opening up the main panel for a peek. I can unscrew the circuit-breaker main panel (it was done recently when I had some air conditioning wired installed) and look at the back of the switch which supplies power to the stereo. Is there any way I can tell whether it is properly grounded at the panel just by looking at it? Or would I have to measure continuity from the conduit sheathing to the switch (or the neutral wire)?
Don't worry - I'm an exceedingly cautious person - I won't do anything foolish. I've built a few electronic kits and rewired various electrical things around the house - lamps, light switches, and (as you know) receptacles, but I have not looked at the back of my circuit box.
Best
Patrick |
Just ran a wire from the receptacle's ground screw to a new screw and hole I drilled in the conduit box. As before ratshack wire says there is now a ground.
I have a shielded supply AC cord on order as per your recommendation.
I think I will use an electrician for the next step!
In the meantime I will be searching for Telefunken 12AX7s to try in the Io's front end.
Thanks to everyone in this thread... audio's a journey...
Patrick |
Wow, swift batch of responses! My quartet of Tung-Sols arrived and they are now in the V1 and V2 positions as the unit warms up. I'll report shortly whether this has solved the noise problem.
Meanwhile, Jim and I have been playing phone tag... neither of us is easy to get hold of at the best of times...
And Lenny at Running Springs is gonna have a Duke for me to audition sometime soon, I hope.
Thanks everyone!
Patrick |
Hi Cello,
It's funny, I was just wondering whether to post another update because it seemed maybe it was just me and Nkj at this point!
I got the shielded Belden AC cord for the Io and have exactly the same RF - so that's a no-go. (For those interested, it looks extremely similar to the stock cord, and didn't sound quite as nice - perhaps not broken in, perhaps other differences!)
I will be having an electrician in soon to find out whether my outlet is actually grounded at the circuit breaker box.
In the meantime, I'm investigating Telefunken (and other) 12AX7s / ECC83s. Man have the prices for NOS tubes gone up since I was last looking (about 3 years ago).
I just noticed oldvinyl's recommendation to use cryotweaks on the Io for RF rejection. I may try this too.
More updates as they come...
Patrick |
More news... the motor on my Garrard 301 is exposed in its skeletal plinth, and I thought this could be generating the problem. It has its own ground wire, unusually enough (I haven't seen this in other 301s), and I tried grounding it at the Io. No change.
Then I realized that I pick up the RF even when the TT isn't running, so it isn't the TT. It's the Io.
So next step is tube rolling in the Io, shielding the Io as suggested, rolling interconnects (currently balanced Kimber Select KS-1120 everywhere except from the two tonearms - Ikeda has its own single-ended pair, the Graham has singled-ended Golden Cross; noise is identical with either tonearm/cart).
In other news, I had my carpenter make me up a Graham/SME armboard so I could mount my 2.2 on the Garrard. It's currently running a Helikon Mono. Just roughed in alignment for now (though "roughing in" with a Graham is closer than most other arms) and making music.
Still just one phono stage with one set of inputs, so it's a task to switch between tonearms. But interesting. I might try mounting my as yet unused but intriguing Decca London Super Gold on the Graham, since it's said to like damped unipivots. (I have a Decca International Arm as well but would need to make a new mounting board once again.)
I still remain so impressed by the Denon 103R, which sits on my Ikeda. Maybe there's a synthesis between it, the Ikeda and the Orsonics headshell, but wow. For $250 (I just got an extra one) this cart blows away the Shelter. And it plays mono recordings more noisily than the Helikon Mono, but more musically. At nearly one-tenth the price.
sorry to ramble
currently on: Clara Haskil playing Schubert's posthumous sonata, mono, Dutch Philips Minigroove....... magical.
Patrick |
OK further updates... no response from Jim via email, I'm gonna try calling him next week. I love Aesthetix and they have been nothing but incredibly helpful when I've managed to get in touch with them. That said, and I know they are a small boutique firm, they could use a website with a FAQ and customer service email address which could get questions to Jim and back. (Even when you do call you usually have to leave a voicemail and get a call back.) All this said, I have to say that Aesthetix has handled every complaint and repair for me gratis aside from shipping the unit to them in California. My only problem with them is communication.
I've ordered Caig ProGold (which is now called DeOxit Gold) for the contacts.
Njk, I'm sure that positioning is a problem, since I only discovered this when I moved the entire system across the room to fire the speakers from the long wall. But as I'm sure you're all aware, it's a black art to arrange components regardless of their RF-susceptibility... right now the cables just reach from component to component. I don't have a rack, and all the components sit on amp-stands and footers which are directly on the floor - except the turntable, which sits on top of an (unused) subwoofer.
Add to this that the Io Sig is 2 heavy boxes... well, I guess I have to do it. Positioning is key. I'm just scared that I won't avoid the antenna effect without going all the way back across the room (and throwing out my back again!)
And then there's the cryotweaks recommendation from oldvinyl. I am trying everybody's suggestions, one by one.
Best
Patrick |
A new clue!
I just realized that the RF noise has a soft "chuff-chuff-chuff-chuff-" sound to it, like a steam train but speeded up, as if something were cycling in and out.
This is more akin to very soft white noise and occurs at the same time as the radio station reception.
It is limited to the Io ... when I switch the input selector on the BAT linestage it vanishes.
Any ideas, anyone?
Patrick |
Hi Nkj!
I've lowered gain to 72 dB on the Io.... this is fine for both the 103R and the Helikon mono in my system.
Paradoxically though, I have to turn the volume higher on the linestage, which means that I can hear more of the chuff-chuff-chuff and radio station... even though I think the music actually sounds better, more natural and less overdriven.
So it's positioning, cables and tubes now...
Patrick |
So Jim White from Aesthetix got back to me last night with some recommendations:
- swap tubes around to locate the "popping" tube (this has gone away for some reason - maybe it was an appliance in the apartment cycling on and off)
- plug the Io Sig into the ExactPower unit so long as I don't overload the EP with its 400W power draw. I think I'll be fine since I'm currently only using 250-300 watts of the 1300-watt max on the EP
- check to see that my phono cables are shielded; I know the Cardas are; I've written to Ikeda to find out if his is
- if this doesn't work, he can make up shielded power umbilicals for me (for the Aesthetix PS to the Io Sig) - the current ones are unshielded
- in other news, Cello is generously lending me some VersaLab Red Rollers to try
- and (always RTFM) I just realized that the ExactPower manual stresses the importance of locating the unit somewhere far from any preamps or any other components that carry low signals. Duh. I have it sitting next to the BAT linestage and not much further away from the Io itself.
Lots of stuff to try here, and, yes, I will continue to be reporting back. I also have to say, after 48 hours, that 72 dB on the Io Sig is making music sound much more beautiful - on both carts - than 80 dB. Ah.... gain matching. My favorite.
Patrick |
Here's the latest:
The chuff-chuff-chuff (like a steam engine) is growing louder - much louder - and is now more audible in the left speaker than the right. There is a buzzy 800 Hz-ish tone as well. The radio station has vanished since I moved the ExactPower. The Io is plugged back into the wall with stock power cord.
The sound can be isolated to the Io, regardless of which cartridge used. It does not occur on any other linestage inputs.
Cello's Red Rollers, which he so generously lent me, did not have any impact on the problem. Cello, I'll be shipping these back to you - thanks for letting me try!
Jim White thinks that I need a power filter between the wall and the Io, and recommends the single-outlet Duke from Running Springs Audio. I have contacted them and they will be shipping me an audition unit. Jim thinks this will be more important than using shielded power umbilicals.
In the meantime, however, the sound has grown louder, and continues to have that cyclical chuff chuff chuff, which makes me suspect an internal component in the Io. Perhaps a tube.
So shifting front-end tubes is my next task.
More as this develops.
thanks for all the continued advice, guys
Patrick |
First tube-switching results:
I just switched the front pairs of 12AX7s - V1L and V2L into V1R and V2R.
The chuff-chuff cyclical sound and the 800 Hz buzz have now switched to the right channel. Still audible from the left, but much louder from the right.
I am now going to mix and match the tubes (I have marked them all.)
Patrick |
Another update... haven't been able to get in touch with Jim for a second consultation, but now I'm fully convinced it's the front end tubes that are contributing to at least part of the choo-choo sound and buzz.
In the meantime, I've taken the gain down from 72 dB to 68 dB, which has at least ameliorated the noise.
I guess NOS tubes are the next step. Or maybe those Tung-Sol 12AX7s.
Patrick |
And a complete report on tube swapping...
V1 & V2
With the new Tung-Sols in this position, the chuff-chuff-chuff was audible in both channels, but much more so in the left channel, with the buzzing sound in both.
V3 & V4
With the original tubes back in V1 & V2 and the Tung-Sols in V3 & V4, the chuff-chuff-chuff was more even between the two channels, and the buzzing sound was inaudible. (!)
V5 & V6
With the original tubes back in V3 & V4 and the Tung-Sols in V5 & V6, the chuff-chuff-chuff was clearly audible through both channels, perhaps even louder, and the buzz was back.
V7
With the original tubes back in V5 & V6, and two of the Tung-Sols inn V7, the chuff-chuff-chuff sound is equal in both speakers (and on headphones), and quite loud - can easily be heard over the music. Now no buzz again (or much less)
V8
I have a bunch of NOS 6SN7s. I decided to try brown-base JAN Sylvania "Chrome Domes" from Kevin Deal at Upscale Audio (probably 1950s) in V8 to see if that made a difference. Once again, the original ECC83s went back V7.
One thing I noticed in each instance is that the tubes in the left channel were appreciably hotter to the touch than the ones in the right channel. Perhaps this relates to the fact the noise was louder in the left channel? EXCEPT in positions V5 and V6, where they were equally (really) hot, and again in positions V7.
Bafflingly, the chuff-chuff-chuff is now much louder in the RIGHT channel... completely opposite to before. I'm replacing the stock 6SN7s in V8 and turning off the unit.
Right now I'm flummoxed. I've emailed Jim with my results, and I have a feeling I'll be returning the unit to him, with PS.
I'm really frustrated. I had become convinced that the noise was due to bad tubes.
Best
Patrick |
Hi guys, my Io has the latest resistors, so that isn't the problem.
I haven't tried swapping the PS tubes... no EL34s lying around (or rather there are some, but I'm not sure how good they are). No tube tester either :-(
Patrick |
Hi Nkj,
It's difficult to say whether the noise developed recently, but I didn't notice it until I moved the system in my room, about 4-5 months ago.
Subjectively, though, it seems to be getting louder.
Best
Patrick |
An update. Jim and I have definitely identified this as RF and narrowed it down to the Io. It's not tube noise and it's not a grounding problem and it's not coming from the turntable. It doesn't make any difference which outlet it's plugged into, and it doesn't make a difference which circuit it's plugged into in the house.
Next test will be borrowing some longer interconnects so that I can move the Io around and see if the RF is being transmitted through the air.
If that doesn't work it, it's a dedicated line to the Io and/or borrowing Running Springs Duke power filter dedicated solely to the Io.
I thought regular readers might appreciate an update!
Patrick |
The latest on my Io Sig and RF saga, if anyone is still reading:
I moved the Io power supply away from the windows (back toward where the system originally resided), which also took it further away from the ExactPower.
Massive decrease in RF. It's still there, but nowhere near as loud. Still a problem if I'm listening to sparse acoustic performances at high volumes, or if I'm listening on headphones.
Next thing will be to try to move both the Io and the power supply even further back into the room, which will need some rearranging, to say the least.
Still no word back from Lenny at Running Spring Audio with his Duke power filter - just emailed him again.
Jim White has been most helpful and even listened to the RF over the phone to try to diagnose. I have a feeling that physical location in my apartment is going to be key here, perhaps with the addition of a dedicated line and/or dedicated power filter for the Io.
Larry, I've got to return your Versalab Red Rollers - thanks again for the loaner!
Patrick |
Hi AQ4life,
I leave the Io on all the time. This is recommended by Aesthetix and longtime users here such as Albert Porter. Best for sound and for tube life.
I've never heard the whistling high-pitched sound. Do you know if your Mills resistors (used in the first batch of Ios -- they turned out to be bad) have been replaced by Roedersteins? It's a free upgrade from Aesthetix.
Aside from that, I'd call Aesthetix. It sounds like you'll have to send the unit in, unfortunately. Unless it's just a bad tube somewhere. You should switch tubes from L to R starting with the front end gain pairs (12AX7LPs) and if the whistling switches channels, you may have isolated your problem tube. Remember to turn off before switching. |
Oh yes - from an early recommendation on this thread, I should also mention that I got some DeOxit Gold Cleaner (it came with a free sample of the Conditioner, which supposedly maintains the cleanliness).
First try was on the crappy original AC cord to my Garrrard turntable. This was almost a joke, but it was definitely the oldest and most corroded plug in my system. When we plugged it back in (and played the same piece), my audiophile friend and I virtually leapt out of our seats - the improvement was so marked! Improved bass transients, better resolution, sweeter highs - and this was only on an AC cord turning the turntable motor! Really our first reaction was being more drawn into the music (Enrico Mainardi playing a Tartini cello concerto), and then we dissected the details.
A smoothly turning turntable motor really is an important thing!
Next try was on the AC pins of the Io's power supply. The change here was much less marked, but I guess the pins were much cleaner (and newer).
More results as I gradually clean stuff. I don't have any other contacts with visible oxidation, so that turntable motor cord might have been the big winner.
Patrick |
Anyone else notice a high-pitched whine from the PS transformer? The ones at the left-front as you face the power supply. It's not audible more than a few inches away, but I wonder if it's normal. Perhaps they need to be screwed down more firmly. Or perhaps the whole thing needs to go back to Aesthetix.
I'm not assuming this is related to the RF sounds - it sounds totally different. I emailed Jim about it but haven't heard back yet. |
Sorry to revive this old thread, but I finally solved the problem.
It wasn't the RSA Duke that did it... though that is currently installed. Nor was it the balanced tonearm cable from Ikeda... though that is also currently installed. Nor was it Cardas caps on unused inputs... though those are currently installed. Nor was it cleaning contacts, though they're all cleaned. Nor was it the power transformer whine, which Jim White says is normal.
Nope, it was cable dressing at the back of the Io! Due to the Io's dual mono construction, the two phono inputs are widely spaced. With all the tonearm cables I've used, the split "Y" for the Left and Right plugs can just barely be opened widely enough to plug into the Io jacks.
This forced the tonearm cable to rest directly on top of one of the power umbilical cords to the Io power supply.
The clue came when I realized that the RF was much worse out of the left speaker, and then noticed that it was the Left tonearm cable that was resting on the power umbilical cord.
So I grabbed a stick of lead bar solder that I had in my toolchest, stuck it in between the tonearm cable and the power umbilical - and - amazingly - the RF has vanished unless you turn up the volume (nothing playing) to tortuous levels.
Next step will be to ask Jim to make me up a pair of shielded umbilicals.
I thought this might be of use to other Aesthetix owners - or anyone who has a massively high-output, all-tubed phono stage and is experiencing similar difficulties. |
Nkj, thanks for all your help... and sorry for missing your earlier post about lead dressing.
Sol, tell me about it! And thanks, it was a journey.
I just tested for RF again with my BAT volume control at 10, 20 and then 30 with no record playing... dead silence... it's uncanny, almost makes me think the system is off!
Now I can't wait for my headphone amp to come back from its repair. This will, of course, be the ultimate test. |
