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Tidal vs Hi Res Files vs CD vs “Netflix”. My test. Incredible!

1.     Introduction. I know there are several threads on different forums about similar subjects, but I couldn’t find one with the exact information I wanted, so I performed my own test.

This is not a scientific test, but I’ve got very consistent results that I want to share and read your opinions.

2.     First, the basics:

        2.1. I listen to ALL of my music streaming Tidal because I like very much its infinite library, the instant access to the music, the chance to make lists with different artists by gender and not having to listen to entire records, the cost of all that music against having a private library of CDs or Hi Res files, the interface, the information of the artists, the chance of finding new and amazing music, etc.

        2.2. If I decide to change Tidal (for CD for instance) it would have to be due to a SIGNIFICANT difference in sound quality.

        2.3. For the test I used the EXACT same system for every source, from the DAC to the speakers (pream, power amp cables, etc). By the way, the system is a hi end and a pretty revealing one, so I can hear the differences easily.

        2.4. I used only Tidal as HiFi streaming service as I don’t have Qobuz where I live (Argentina).

        2.5. For the comparisons I used the same songs in different formats and sources, most of the times (not always), from the same album when possible.

I know you will say that different masters from any band will differ in sound quality and I know that, but I’ve got consistent and very similar results on the different tests and if I have to choose a source with the effort of chasing each song’s perfect recording/master, it would be endless, pointless and very expensive.

        2.6. The songs I used are NOT audiophile grade recordings, BUT they serve for the purpose as they were available from the different sources and my CD collection is very scarce.

        2.7. I did only a few test as I don’t have the time and the patience to spend hours on this subject as I’m not a reviewer and, as I’ve said, the results were consistent.

       2.8. Cables (speaker, USB, RCA/Coaxial, Power, etc) are good enough, but not the most expensive ones (Kimber and DH Labs mostly).

       2.9. I did A/B test with almost no delay, as the three rigs tested were connected to different inputs of my DAC and I only had to switch between them. That helped me A LOT to detect the differences.

3. Rigs for the tests (upstream from the DAC)

       3.1. Computer-USB chain (for Tidal and Hi Res Files):

              Ethernet Cisco Gigabyte Switch and CAT8 Ethernet cable to my Windows 10 Notebook.

              Audinirvana+ for streaming Tidal or playing Hi Res files from the hard disk.

              Audioquest Jitterbug as pasive filter for the USB port.

              Wyred4Sound USB Reclocker with a Swagman Hifi Linear Power Supply.

              Gustard U16 USB to I2S converter (a very good upgrade in my system).

              I2S 2.1 protocol (HDMI) cable to the DAC.

      3.2. CD Player Rig:

             Samsung budget Blue-Ray player.

             Coaxial cable (Kimber 1m long) to my DAC.

       3.3. Netflix Rig:

              LG Smart Tv.

              Cheap Amazon Toslink/Optical cable to my DAC.

The Tv uses WiFi for connection, instead of Ethernet cable like the computer (wich is much better soundwise), and it is not connected to the AC Power conditioners and Filters as the USB-Computer chain is.

4.  Tests

      4.1. CD vs Tidal (Hi Fi and MQA)

          4.1.1.       Band: Huey Lewis and the News

                          Tidal (Hi Fi and MQA) Album: Sports.

                          CD Album: The Best of Huey Lewis.

                          Best sound in order:

                          a.       Tidal MQA

                          b.     CD

                          c.       Tidal HiFi

NOTE: the differences/gaps in sound quality between a; b and c were similar. NOT big, but noticeable and “very consistent with the next tests (A-ha and Coldplay)”. I also think I noticed them as I changed fast from one source to the next. Otherway, I think it would be hard to detect them.

           4.1.2.       Band: A-ha

                           Tidal (MQA) Album: Time and Again, The ultimate A-ha.

                           CD and Tidal (Hi Fi) Album: The Hits of A-ha (not available on MQA).

                           Best sound in order:

                           a.       Tidal MQA

                           b.     CD

                           c.       Tidal HiFi

           4.1.3.       Band: Coldplay

                           Tidal (HiFi and MQA) Album: A head full of dreams.

                           CD Album: A head full of dreams.

                           Best sound in order:

                           a.   Tidal MQA

                           b.   CD

                           c.     Tidal HiFi

      4.2. Hi Res (PCM 96/24) vs Tidal (only Hi Fi, not MQA)

           4.2.1.       Band: Pink Floyd.

                           Album (for both sources): The Division Bell.

HiRes file was a LITTLE better. May be so little that it could be placebo effect and so little that it doesn’t justify having HiRes files for computer playback.

     4.3. Netflix vs Tidal (Hifi)

Here I don’t have many choices as Netflix is not an audio streaming app.

I found the difference by chance. Nevertheless, before the tests, I always had the feeling that the sound coming from Netflix was somehow better than my USB rig, but I thought it wasn’t possible and it was only my imagination considering all the money I spent on my USB-Computer rig. BOY, I WAS WRONG!!

I only compared a couple of songs, but I didn’t need more than that a couple of direct comparison as I find ALL of the songs to sound better than my USB rig because I’ve been listening to the latter for a long time and, eventhough every recording is different, I know how it sounds my Rig in general (tone, soundstage, layering, imagining, impact, bass, etc).

The songs I used to make the A/B comparison are “Still falling for you” from Ellie Goulding from Bridget Jones’s baby Soundtrack and “Nothing’s gonna hurt you baby” from Cigarettes After Sex from Kidnapping Stella Soundtrack.

Well, eventhough they are NOT audiophile songs, the sound from my Tv (I repeat with wifi, cheap cable and NO AC conditioning) is SO MUCH better and analog than the one from my USB rig, that I still cannot believe it!!!

I cannot compare it to any other format than Tidal HiFi, but the difference is SO BIG that I think not even Tidal MQA on my USB-Computer rig comes close.

5.       Conclusions

      5.1. I know that if I get a better CD player I will get much better sound, but I also think that if I get a good streamer-transport, I will also improve my Tidal sound quality a lot, may be by a similar margin.

      5.2. So, Im after a good streamer-transport to get AT LEAST the sound quality I have with my Netflix rig. If I dont get it with it, I will recomend Tidal to hire Netflix engineers!!! J

6.       I would love to hear some other audiophiles “similar” experiences with CD vs Tidal vs other hifi digital formats and sources.

Please only post about real experiences, not getting to technical, as it gets boring and somehow useless.


plga

Showing 14 responses by plga

plga OP
184 posts
 
Well, in my case, the differences were easily detectable, but they are not big enough to force me to leave streaming (Tidal). Evenmore, MQA sounded better, for me and in my system, than my CD player, wich is truly a relief!  Even though MQA catalog is scarce in Tidal yet.

The BIG surprise here is Netflix, wich is NOT an audiophile oriented service and it sounded better than Tidal MQA and Hi Res files played by the computer with A LOT of conditioning gear! 

So, I'm pretty sure that a very good (not crazy expensive) transport/streamer like the SOtM SMS-200 Ultra Neo, or the Sonore Ultra Rendu, or Sonore Optical Rendu, will do a MUCH better job than my Notebook soundwise. And I still will have the chance to use all of the gear I have in the USB chain, wich I'm sure will help the transport/streamer to shine.

But, I have to buy one transport/streamer to try it out and that's why I'm very interested on some other audiophiles similar experiences, more if they've tried a dedicated streamer.
plga OP
184 posts
 
Hello guys,
My answers by topic:

1- I've been listening and improving my system for a considerably long time and when I refer to "better" sound, I don't mean coloured, but more accurate. By that I mean issues that I believe cannot be coloured or "invented" by any part of the system, they dont exist from the beginning, the source.

Let me explain better. As my system got better in accuracy (it is PRETTY revealing today), it evolved in aspects I'm sure cannot be done colouring or masking the sound, only improving the information the system is amplifing:

- Better tone: more real and analog sound, less edgy, LESS SIBILANCE. You know what I mean: LESS DIGITAL SOUND.

For instance: in the song  "Still falling for you” from Ellie Goulding from Bridget Jones’s baby Soundtrack, wich is at the end of the movie and its NOT an audiophile song, in the chorus "on Tidal" you can EASILY detect sibilance on the F and S letter of the words Ellie sings and, on Netflix, the sibilance is almost totally gone. Its so obvious, that I guess you dont need trained ears or a hi end system to hear it. 
Well, that sibilance makes the system sound "digital", affecting the tone and worsening the realism of the instruments and voices. That issue CANNOT be coloured, it is just poor quality digital processing.

- Less ground noise, cleaner soundstage, better separation and layering. 

- Deeper and wider soundstage. 

With the same song, and others, on some Netflix movies, my speakers TRULY disappear. I mean, the image with Tidal and the other sources is GREAT, but on Netflix its like Im inside de stage, its incredible.

I've been listening to my system for a long time and I've got used to how it images the sound, even with the best recordings on Tidal. For me, not even those recordings image as well as most songs on Netflix. I still cannot believe it!!   The sound on Netflix has an easiness and flows beautifully. Another issue that I believe cannot be done "colouring" or with an EQ.

- Dinamics and bass impact. I dont mean only stronger bass, but deeper, profund bass, with out changing anything else on the system. 

2- I stream Netflix with my Tv is a 65" LG 4k and it's connected to Internet with the same WiFi Router as my Notebook (wich streams Tidal), BUT the computer is connected to the Router via a Gigabit Cisco Switch and a couple of CAT9 Ethernet cables, NOT WiFi.

If I stream Tidal with the computer via WiFi the sound is worse than Ethernet with the Switch. It is easily detectable and AGAIN, its NOT something you can mask with EQ or colouring the sound. The computer (at least mine) works better with Ethernet, it sounds better. Not a huge change, but noticeable.

So the Tv, using a worse digital signal than the Computer, sounds better.

Just to mention, I've used some time Dirac Room Correction. I liked it first and it makes a BIG difference in sound, but then I found the sound with Dirac flat, lean and boring, so I stopped using it. The test I've made were WITH OUT Dirac.

3- The TV is connected to my DAC with a cheap 3m Toslink (optical) cable and my system (for movies and music) is stereo, not multichannel as my main goal is music.

@ elliottbnewcombjr Thank you for the advice. I will try it, but I dont know if the browser app on the Tv will be able to stream Tidal. We'll see.

@ classdstreamer The Jitterbug helped a LITTLE bit, maybe eliminating some harshness on the sound, but its so little that Im not 100% sure.

On the other hand, the W4S USB Reclocker (RUR) does indeed improved the sound. Its NOT a big change, but noticeable, mostly on dynamics, tone and realism of the music. I guess another USB conditioners must produce similar results, but for me even the whole USB chain (RUR + LPS + Gustard U16) is not enough to reach the sound quality I hear from Netflix.

By the way, the quality sound is MUCH worse if I connect the computer directly to the USB input of the DAC, avoiding the  RUR + LPS + Gustard U16 chain.

The only answer for me is that the computer is providing a truly awful USB signal that cannot, or is too difficult, to correct.

PS: for the guys that BITS ARE BITS, I can asure you that its not that simple. Time domain is critical in audio and if a piece of gear on the chain introduces jitter, noise, whatever, it will affect the sound BIG time.

Just to mention: I also like photography and I've had great pieces of gear, mostly expensive lenses, but I sold them all and kept only what I need. What I mean is that I don't buy or keep pieces of gear only for aesthetics reasons. I've had also tube gear (300B and EL34 integrateds), wich really looked BEATIFUL, but I sold them because they didnt sound as good what I have now. 

plga OP
184 posts
 
Hello guys, thanks for the response. 

@sameyers1. Yes, I've tried running the Notebook with only its battery and I dont hear any noticeable difference. I will try again just to be sure.
On the other hand, if I connect the USB output of my Notebook directly to my DAC, the sound is much worse. Both, the W4S USB Reclocker (RUR) and the Gustard U16, do a GREAT job, mostly the latter, but it aint enough to match the quality sound of my TV rig, wich has no signal or AC power conditioning whatsoever.
Just to mention, if Im not mistaken, John Darko on his review of THE RUR said that he couldnt hear a difference in sound between a computer with the RUR vs a budget streamer. Well, I dont think so. Eventhough the RUR does improve the quality sound of my Notebook USB signal, and eventhough it has an audiophile Linear Power Supply and then the signal goes through the Gustard U16 (wich helps A LOT), its not enough yet. 
You just said it, Lumin U1 Mini gave you the best sound as it's an audiophile dedicated streamer/transporter. I think thats the way to go.

@hrabieh. My DAC is the Audio-gd R8 Ladder DAC, with upgrade of Accusilicon clocks. I've been told from some experienced audiophiles that its a hell of a DAC, competing with ones costing much more.

@markcdaniels. Ultra Rendu is another options Im evaluating. I bet it sounds great! 
plga OP
184 posts
 
@david_ten Yes WiFi sounds worse "on my Computer" than Ethernet.  NOT by a big margin, but noticeable. 

I haven't tried Ethernet with the TV because I would have to run a long ethernet cable, wich I dont have, and the TV is hanged from the wall and I have to uninstall it, connect the cable and hang it back to the wall. Too much work and time. 

I guess the proof is on the computer, wich is easy and fast to make an A/B test (WiFi vs Ethernet).

Remember that we are talking about SMALL improvements (mostly less digital sound) and I dont know if you will easily detect them if you have long time between listening sessions (uninstalling the Tv will take me at least 30 minutes).
plga OP
184 posts
 
@classdstreamer that´s a good option.

Nevertheless, I think it will be worse as the I2S input of the Audio-GD R8 DAC is known to be the best input, as it is on almost any other Audio-GD and other brands DACs.

Also, all the USB conditioners are connected to two AC power conditioners: the Bada LB-5600 power filter and the Holton DC Blocker. The Tv isn’t.
plga OP
184 posts
 
By the way, in fact my experience with Dirac is that it makes the sound flatter, less 3D.

I don't know how, but somehow it affects the spatial cues on the signal and the deepness of the soundstage.

A friend of mine, who has a small boutique factory of hi end speakers in Australia, with MANY years of experience listening to hi end audio gear, has heard Trinnov Room Correction with MULTI thounsands dollar systems and he found the same problem: flat sound. 

Digital EQ and Room Correction Software, even expensive ones, can affect negatively the deepness of the soundstage and what I found with Netflix was the opposite, it had a MUCH real soundstage, layering and instrument separation.
plga OP
184 posts
 
I think USB output is good enough and better than optical, BUT the computer sends a very corrupted USB signal.

I think its not the transport (USB vs Toslink), but a source problem (Computer vs another sources).

@murtazao I used Digital EQ (Dirac) and the differences are NOT possible with an EQ. You cannot correct soundstage, instrument separation or dynamics with an EQ. Nevertheless, I will run Netflix on the PC or Tidal on the Tv and we’ll see.
plga OP
184 posts
 
If its that, I dont know why Tidal doesnt use some similar effect.

But I still believe it is better digital signal processing on the TV than on the computer for two reasons:

1. I don't think adding some effect like surround will sound natural. The same song from the movie on Netflix sounded more real, natural and smooth. If you try to emulate that (with music) on some HT multichannel system, it wont sound natural, speakers don't dissapear that much and it doesn't fix the "digital" sounding flavor.

2. There's a noticeable higher amount of sibilance on Tidal vs Netflix (same song form the soundtrack) and THAT I'm sure is worse digital signal processing.
plga OP
184 posts
 
@spenrock my USB rig (as my DAC, preamp and power amp) use AC treatment (a Filter and a DC Blocker) so I dont think it should be any ground hum.

On the other hand, if a system gets more accourate, it’s true that it will show more easily the flaws of a poor recording, but if Netflix is the lowest resolution source, why does it show such much better soundstage and layering. You dont get that with a lowest resolution system, but with the highest one. Not to mention tone, bass definition, impact and dynamics.

@classdstreamer Im not a specialist on the field whatsoever. I've read that I2S connection is more direct and, as you said, "the DAC can use the clock of the streamer rather than its own".

Right now Im at home and I will compare the following:

1- Toslink vs I2S from the Gustard U16 to my DAC. 

2- Netflix on my Notebook, if I manage to send the sound to my system. 

3- Tidal with the browser of my TV, if I can make it work. 

plga OP
184 posts
 
Yes George, for me the CD sound quality came second on every test. 

I know that a good audiophile CD player will improve the sound A LOT, but I'm pretty sure that a good streamer will also be a BIG step up from the computer.

So I guess it could be safe to asume that with both rigs upgraded the differences should be similar. I mean they should sound quite the same. 

That's important to me as I love streaming and I was kind of worried if Tidal was good enough for a high end system. Now Im convinced that with a good streamer, it will be. 

Before I found this out, sometimes I felt that the sound of my system had a "little" digital flavour and I thought its was my class D amp that needed more burn in time and Im glad I was wrong!!! My amp is awesome, but its pretty picky about the quality of the source. 


plga OP
184 posts
 
Well, I did the tests suggested, but I could only get one to function:

1- Toslink vs I2S from the Gustard U16 to my DAC.

I've got no music from my DAC, sometimes nothing and sometimes only static.
The U16 has a buggy firmware and we all (the users) are specting to be fixed by Gustard (you can follow this topic on another threads).
Its a great sounding device, but it needs a new firmware. In fact, I've got problems to make it work back again with I2S output. It got me pretty nervous. 
No comparison possible. 

2- Netflix on my Notebook.

Well, I've had Hard time to pick up differences between this two.
I think Audinirvana sounded better, with more definition on the high frequencies, but not by much.
I think we, the audiophiles, can rest in peace!  :-) 

3- Tidal with the browser of my TV.

The TV browser doesnt support Tidal, so it was not possible to make it run. 
plga OP
184 posts
 
Well, Im not an expert, but I understand bits are transmitted on packages that are then checked for errores with a protocol.
Thats fine to copy files from one point to another without a time line to cover. 
I understand that when some packages dont arrive or they have errors, they hace to be sent again. Well, doing that in a little time and with wireless or poor quality transmition is not easy, and both the sender and the receiver, have to work hard and that rises jitter inside the digital gear.
Dont forget that some bits are transmited with micro voltage. 
Well, besides any technical explanation, the evidence is on listening, with a high resolution system, the differences. They exist, that's for sure and they are not placebo.
Poor quality digital music sounds harsh, edgy and unnatural. Of course, as the gear gets better, the differences get smaller. 
plga OP
184 posts
 
Hello @dtximages

I'm not streaming music from Netflix, I've just compared some two songs you can hear from a couple of movies on Netflix vs the same songs on the Soundrtrack albums from Tidal.


plga OP
184 posts
 
Hey @classdstreamer
Very good and interesting info.

I've got similar results using Ethernet vs WiFi, not big difference, but noticeable. 

I also think that using a better streamer, not too expensive, like Bluesound, will give you another significant upgrade, as it will do adding some USB conditioner on the USB path from your Laptop to the DAC.

I just bought the SOtM SMS-200 Ultra Neo Special Edition and I will take it home at the end of september. Just then I will be able to know how big the difference are between a computer USB signal (very well processed) vs a very good streamer. I cant wait!!  :-)

There´s a neverending upgrade path in front of us!!  I think I want to take a rest after this new upgrade... I hope!

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