Thanks! again- oblgny-
I learn from you guys as well. This is what a hobby and being a hobbiest, is all about in practice. Happy Listening!
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TY- michaeljbrown
I am a Transparent cabling fan as well. There are so many brands that I will probably never demo...depressing...
Audioquest does sound very good on Thiel speakers.
I have not heard any of the older speakers- CS5 or CS 7.2.
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On another topic, has anyone heard both CS5i's or 5's, and CS7.2's? If so, your impressions of these two big Thiels?
I'm considering the 7.2's at present. |
I used Audioquest cabling for my earlier 2.2's & 2.3's. I switched to Transparent cables when my Thiel dealer (extinct now!) sold me some in the 1500 range. Later on I had a chance to compare much cheaper Sanders cables and interconnects. They sounded at least as good, and were much cheaper. Now I use Sanders for much of my needs except for when I switch to tubes and don't have balanced connections. Then it's Audioquest as I have sold my Transparent. Call Roger Sanders and order a pair if you don't like them, he'll take them back and refund your dough. I just call him and tell him how long and single ended or balanced and a week later I get a box of cables! Viola!
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Jafant...
Until I landed here about 3 years ago I had pretty much regarded interconnects/speaker cables as the last thing on my list. Sight unseen, sight unheard, heck - the components came with them, right?
I think the first "high end" amp I purchased here was a "vintage" McIntosh MC2100 105 watt per channel solid state affair which had very small screw terminals for the speaker connections. The seller related that he found a certain brand, which is now long forgotten, perfect for bringing out the amp's best performance. I was then using a pair of Klipsch CF-3's which had been driven by Radio Shack cable from a 100 foot spool, tucked along the walls and laying - gasp! - on the shag carpeting. Them speakers was 101db efficient comprised of two 10 inch woofers and a centered compression tweeter which I found to be shrill - especially with my new "audiophile" amp.
This thread could also be titled "How Audiogon Ruined My Life and Why I'm Still At It."
On subject... Based on the seller's advice I walked into my local shop and made the inquiry. They knew of the amp's Trumpian sized speaker terminals and fashioned a pair for me out of some Tara Labs cables. Bingo! Wow, this stuff is true! Mind you, I was then somewhat surprised at paying over $100 for speaker cables having never done so before.
Sheesh.
I then, and up to quite recently, had a very mixed bag of cables for everything, a few Tara's, MITs, Silnotes, Morrows...never using one brand or another in the chain altogether.
Goertz speaker cables are amongst my favorites. I still have 2 pairs, single and bi-wire just in case, 7 feet long. I have not had any speaker wires laying on the floor for a long time now!
Currently I am 100% Transparent Audio throughout, components and speaker alike. Reasonable in cost, excellent customer service, with a trade up policy I believe no other cable company offers. I'm sold and happy.
Sight unseen, sight unheard...it's sound, not sight that matter. Cables ain't sexy, there's no lights, buttons, meters, brushed aluminum fascias, toggles, aerospace graded space age polymer coatings to appreciate. I cannot offer any technical opinions regarding my preferences for cables in general, but I will offer that experimenting pays off. I suggest starting off small and continuing from there. I have and it's worth it.
Damn you, Audiogon!
By the way, my spate of recent posts to this thread was conducted whilst spinning vinyl and ripping discs into my server yesterday in an air conditioned space. 105 here yesterday afternoon. Yikes.
Great forum, I'm still learnin' stuff!
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All-
talk about your interconnect (IC) and speaker cable (SP) journey over the years, past present and future. Happy Listening!
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Laughing...
I search both A'gon & eBay everyday, so I do not miss an opportunity of a lifetime!
Thanks for mentioning the Primare I-32. I want to demo the cd player -CD32. It is good to read that something was amiss in your system.
Interesting that you like the Primare power amp? |
Yeah...
In the past two/three years I've had...
The newest McIntosh stereo receiver MA6700
Which I liked kind of...took that back and bought the MC275 tube amp because, well, it looked so cool. Had a minor issue with it which McIntosh customer service absolutely proved useless so I sold that off...
My local shop had a CJ MF200 which I bought because it was...there. I'm having it looked over right now.
A Peachtree 220SE integrated.
A Primare i32 integrated which I liked but not enough, so I returned it and purchased my current amp, their A34.2 which is really good. My local shop is also Primare's national distributor.
A pair of Musical Fidelity M1 monoblocks - which were fun.
I think I might have missed one.
However, currently my BAT VK3i pre and the Primare are working really well and I'm not really looking. Unless of course I am able to find a Pass...A few posts back I mentioned there was a BAT amp I was watching with a buy it price of $1500 - about $500 below the BB average but the seller let it go for $1000!!! Aaaaargh!
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oblgny-
do not feel bad- this is part of the fun of our hobby.
You have had a few, different power amps? It would be interesting to pair the Pass Labs w/ a B.A.T. pre-amp. |
Well it certainly works! stevecham.
The radiator really adds to the overall sonic presentation of the sound.
I like it. |
I think Jim Thiel appreciated the work of Villchur and Kloss decades ago and felt the acoustic suspension (sealed box) design was the most accurate in reproduction of low frequencies. The passive radiator was a sort of compromise between a port and a sealed box, utilizing the back wave of the woofer to redirect that energy forward of the baffle. |
Because I'm an idiot!!!
I think I did to fund a McIntosh MC275. Still kicking myself for that. |
Why did you sell your Pass Labs? |
oblgny-
Much Thanks! for the suggestion. Reno HiFi does has a stellar reputation for First Watt & Pass Labs gear. I have heard the Pass Labs separates, I want to demo the various integrated amps for a comparison.
On the flipside of this particular coin, I am interested in the B.A.T integrated as well. I do not have a Pass Labs nor B.A.T. dealer/retailer here in the deep South. Wish I did... |
Jafant...
Were I constrained by space I'd definitely consider the integrated based upon my experience with the 150.5 amp - besides that, an appreciable cost efficiency as well. I see that Reno Hifi has one for $3795 right now. If you were to go separates pretty much double that.
I bought my 150.5 from Mark there, I do believe you've mentioned doing business with him as well. I paid $2400 for a demo a couple of years ago and regret selling it. Currently used ones are fetching about $1k higher! Sheesh. I'm an idiot! I think I was using an ARC pre at that time. |
oblgny-
I,too, am interested in Pass Labs amps. I do not know which way I will go-separates vs integrated ? |
IME, most higher end subs are sealed designs- unsound. |
Unsound...
Thanks for your thoroughly enlightening information! By far and away the most informative I've received or have been able to read about them.
I should make it clear that I had/have absolutely no qualms regarding the bass output of these speakers in the first place. In fact I think they are unbeatable in more respects than any other speaker I have owned, period. At their used prices they are an utter steal. My first pair of them cost $800 and I drove 250 miles to pick them up from a fellow member. I hooked 'em up and experienced one of my very few "wow" moments. I forget what amp/pre setup I had at the time but I became a zealot at that moment.
That pair went to my nephew who still has them. I had to repair one of the mids before handing them.
My current pair cost me $350 from a fellow member and I drove 95 miles to get them. Absolutely the best money I've spent on anything. The Audiogon BB shows an average of around $900, which is higher than what they're actually going for. Unfortunately most of them costing that and below are in poor shape. I'm currently looking for another pair to keep for parts.
Anyway, my inquiry regarding the implementation of the sub was not proposed as a means of improving anything, nor adding anything I feel is lacking. These are excellent speakers, period. I have this sub...just tinkering.
I always scan the site for 3.6's and above, but I also seek a geographically desirable location when I do. No eBay sellers, thank you. It's somewhat of a shame that I only found out about this brand after Mr. Thiel passed away.
These are extraordinarily difficult speakers to beat at any price.
My favorite amp to drive them? Pass Labs X150.5. Like a schmuck I sold that.
Thanks again!
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^Interesting how Jim Thiel's own subs were all sealed boxes. |
Sounds like a cool concept- I guess this is one of many reasons why the CS 2.4/ 2.4 SE models incorporated a passive radiator to accentuate the 8" driver. I have not heard any of these older models by Thiel- only the most current ones. |
^oops, that's a 10" woofer not a 10' woofer. :-) |
^If I may; it's not a typical eq. It's really a bass only booster. By compensating for the natural bass roll off of the 10' woofers in a relatively modest sized sealed box cabinet Jim Thiel (and others including B&W, KEF ,etc.) was able to make a truly full range speaker with a high WAF. The disadvantage of this approach is a bit more cabling in the loop, and more demands on the woofers and amplifier (more on this later), and of course the rightly or wrongly audiophile thought of anathema of putting more electronics in the path. The advantage is of course true full range bass (!) in a much less expensive to make (well) and easier to sell smaller cabinet. Some have suggested less energy storage, and tighter response from the smaller woofers than would otherwise be necessary as a plus. As for the extra amplifier demands, yes it's true, but in the case of the Theil 3.5's it's not quite as challenging as it might first appear. The 3.5's are spec'd as 4 Ohm nominal, 4 Ohm minimum, and they do have a very smooth steady impedance, but at 70 Hz, the eq gradually starts to put more and more demands on the amplifier to compensate for that typical sealed box roll off, but just as that happens the impedance plot starts to increase and ergo so does the sensitivity. See, quite brilliant. Jim put one small switch on the eq to access bass response to either 40 Hz or 20 Hz to adapt to different sized rooms or musical demands. By musical demands I mean bass volume. Some music such a much popular music doesn't have much below 40 Hz but is typically played very loud in that region, where as other music such as much classical music might go deeper but not necessarily as loud there. The 3.5's can play deep bass quite loudly in typical rooms, but truth be told, one can only bend the laws of physics so far; very loud, very deep bass still needs a much bigger and much more expensive speaker system. As Jim Thiel once told me, unfortunately the eq raised a red flag to many audiophiles with preconceived prejudices. One might imagine that with today's digital room correction eq's this strategy might return, as one could not only dial in accurate bass to anechoic standards, but also to customers individual rooms in the very frequency range most likely to be problematic.
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oblgny-
you have an interesting speaker, interesting design. I wonder how/why Mr Thiel would build and sell a speaker that required some kind of EQ ?
Was he competing w/ Infinity? Mark Levinson Cello? |
I have noticed that leaving the equalizer out completely suffers everything on the speaker. Gonna s'periment!
First I'll try with the eq set at 40, then remove it from the chain. Vedddddy interesting... |
Keep me posted -oblgny
Happy Listening! |
Unsound...
That's what I was thinking more or less as well. I doubt I'll do it because I think the 3.5's bass is damn good as it is. Just figuring if I have the sub.... Boredom!
Jafant...
I like Rel too. Had a couple in the past. |
Oblgny, I'd suggest trying the 40 Hz setting on Thiel's eq and using the sub below that point. This might increase the dynamic range, and "ease". Though the dynamic range of the bass on the 3.5's isn't it's strongest point, overall the Thiel 3.5's stereo bass w/ eq provides better bass than many subs. So much of this depends on your amp and especially your room. |
It would be interesting to hear how a Thiel SmartSub fits into your query.
I am a big proponent of REL subwoofer. Happy Listening!
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Heresy or...?
i just this past Saturday sold a very nice pair of Magnepan .7's that I purchased only recently because...well, I like Maggies, too. (I still have my CS3.5's.)
To round out the Mags low end output I subsequently purchased a Rhythmik L12 sub - which has gotten some very positive reviews.
I also have this for sale here but...doesn't appear to have gained an audience yet.
As you know the Thiel CS 3.5's incorporate an equalizer to extend the frequency response 20hz-20khz which I've found to be wonderful. Cutting the response to 40hz on the eq suffers separation and overall sonics.
My question is...would removing the Thiel eq and incorporating the sub instead offer any benefits and, where would I position the crossover point?
I don't believe in modding anything but since I might not sell the sub too quickly...
Thanks!
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Thank You- frozentundra
at the present time, I only have the speakers, as I am in the process of building my system. I have an idea of where I want to go with it.
There are a few more pieces of gear that I want to demo prior to any
purchase. Yes, they are beautiful! |
Jayfant;
when are are you going to post your system pictures with the 2.4se
they are beautiful speakers!
What are you running them with
Jeff
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As we ramp-up for another Thiel week- Happy Listening! |
Anyone? Hope you guys are having a fun Thiel week. |
Guys-
have any of you owned NAIM gear with your Thiel loudspeakers?
Thoughts? Impressions?
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Thank You- michaeljbrown
that really says a lot, as the 2.7, requires more current to drive than my 2.4s. Should have been model B-135.
Happy Listening! |
I was able to listen to the Bryston integrated (model escapes me) at a dealer showroom in Santa Fe. It was paired with Thiel 2.7's and sounded wonderful.
I wish I had listened to my ears!
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Very nice! I am still considering a B.A.T. integrated amp on my Thiel speakers. There are so many excellent amps in the marketplace, I do not want to make a $ mistake? |
Jafant...
I'm using a Primare R32 phono preamp as well; so far the mating of the B. A. T. with the Primare is a very solid match - particularly with vinyl. The separation is practically magical.
The Primare is still barely broken in as I've been busy with work, listening maybe 6 hours a week. I usually allow the pre about 15 minutes before I listen - seems to show best when the tubes emit a little warmth.
I'm looking at a BAT VK250 listed here now...trying to figure out how the heck I can get it!
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oblgny-
how are you liking the B.A.T. and Primare combo?
About 10 years ago, I demo'ed the then new Primare I22 integrated amp w/ matching cd player on Vienna Acoustics speakers. Not bad at all.
Fast forward to 2016, I believe the model #'s are up to I32 and CD32
combo. The cd player has received much positive Audio press.
The Primare blu-ray spinner is supposed to be excellent as well.
Sanyo makes the laser assembly/drive transport. |
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My pleasure- Guys.
I would like a demo on that Bryston integrated amp- michaeljbrown.
Can you tell me more about your audition? I concur that Transparent cabling is outstanding. I have never read about Sanders, though?
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I used Transparent cables; however, after a talk with Roger Sanders, I ordered a pair of Sanders speaker cables and I now use them throughout and have never thought of using anything else.
I have never used Bryston but I am sure they are a good match, as Gary at Thiel spoke highly of Bryston, and he now works for them.
Bryston is not as high current as Krell, Classe or Pass, but I have heard them with Thiel and was very impressed. In fact, I almost bought a Bryston integrated to use with my 2.4's. I wish I had, as I wasted some time and money with the baby Boulder before getting the Krell.
Thanks for the thread jafant! |
Thanks! for sharing- michaeljbrown
Bryston power amps are a sonic match w/ Thiel speakers.
Over your course, which cabling (most important), did you use?
Happy Listening! |
I have really enjoyed reviewing the posts in this great thread. It occurs to me that I have a few observations about my long association with these great speakers. The first is that quality power is the most important ingredient in the enjoyment of Thiels ; I say this after realizing that much of the time I was not supplying enough power. When I finally purchased an EAD pm 2000, a 5 channel beast with 400 wpc, I saw what I had been missing. I used the EAD with my 2.4's until I was able to have a separate 2 channel system. Even then, I was underpowered with a Boulder 350 (a budget Boulder)..but when I finally hooked up the fpb 300 Krell...Bam. Magic. I then twisted off and bought a pair of CS 5's, which I found to require an enormous amount of power. I talked to Rob at Thiel, who told me they had an FPB 600 with the CS5i's in the sound room at the factory in Kentucky. I was never able to adequately power the 5's, and I would strongly suggest to anyone tempted to buy these at 2000 bucks or so should factor in the cost of a quality (very)high powered amp: I think the Krell 300 would have been better than what I used to replace it: a CAT 500 wpc amp. This was power, but not quality power, and it had a noisy fan, which bugged me. I am now without Thiel 2 channel speakers for the first time since I started this hobby in 1984. I have an all Thiel HT system, as previously mentioned, but now am listening to some big Altec horns atop big Onken cabinets with Altec woofers. I can power these with 25wpc Quicksilver monos, and I do enjoy them. But....that detailed articulate Thiel sound is missing... and I guess I miss it. So I am looking to maybe get some Thiels, and maybe start the arms race again....
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Can I work for you- oblgny? |
Mega millions NY jackpot $330 million. Tuesday drawing. I wagered $1.
If I win it I'm buying Thiel.
Not a pair of Thiels, Thiel itself. |
Kubala Sousna cabling is a sonic match for Thiel speakers. |
Nice! oblgny and tomic601
I have the Thiel outriggers for my speakers. I have read about Sound Anchors products used in lieu of outriggers, though.
A cool project for sure- keep me posted on your tweaks.
1st day of Summer- play the wonderful Jazz standard "Summertime".
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Odd, indeed-oblgyn
So long as the company stays true to us Legacy Speakers owners, that is all that matters IMO. |
