I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model? Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
dlcockrum, I always look forward to your contributions to this thread. IMHO, the CS 5's price aside were Thiel's absolute best performing speakers. When price is considered I have to give the nod to the 3.5's as his best total value. I agree the "I" versions without the pad damped woofers were a very nice improvement. Regrettably there was very little, if no follow up in the rags on the very nicely improved "I" version. Though I am not aware of any testing that would confirm this: I would imagine these later woofers without the attached damping pads would be much more amplifier friendly as well. I also agree that they are especially demanding of set up and associated gear. If it weren't for the expense of proper amplification, I'd probably own a pair. While very nice amps, I always felt that the afore mentioned Krell 250's were hazy in the upper frequencies and didn't quite have the signature bass quality typical of Krells. As much as the pressed loved it, it wasn't my favorite Krell. I much preferred the earlier KMA 160's and 400's. For a while Larry Archibald was using Levinson. Never amongst my favorites. For me they lacked the crispness that is sometimes part of the music, and didn't have the micro and macro dynamics that the Krells had in spades. Some time after the formal Stereophile review there was some mention that Larry Archibald was enthusiastic that he got the CS 5's to really sing with bigger 600 Watt Krells. I can't help but believe that the Thiels sometimes got unfairly blamed for accurately portraying what was really on the recording.
Richardpo1, Obviously I haven't examined all that many 3.5's without their grills, but the only times I've seen a 4 holed midrange drivers is on mismatched with a 3 hole midrange driver, on used pairs sold on e-bay. I've never seen a pair with two 4 holed midrange drivers. Perhaps different runs of drivers were made with different mounting brackets? I don't know. I'd hazard a guess that the 4 holed drivers might be the off the shelf drivers not made to Jim Thiel's specifications. Not sure what the exact differences might be, if any. Perhaps it's the short coil/ long gap motor, something else? I really don't know for sure, but until I know better, suspicion would cause me to avoid the 4 hole drivers.
Dlcockrum, Ordinarily I would suggest that amps with the DR-9's power specs might be adequate, but not necessarily ideal. But, those older Classe' amps seem to be an exception to the rule and work beyond what their specs would suggest. Conservatively/under rated? I don't know. But a lot of Apogee users with their even more challenging load, seemed to indeed be very happy running those older Classe' amplifiers with them.
Another consideration is the superior time and phase superiority of the Thiels sealed box bass response over the ported, vented, etc. bass output of many subwoofers. Typically the bigger the driver the better the response gets at the lowest 1st octave, but the worse the response gets at progressively higher octaves,.
Very good discussion about the lower frequencies. There are proven, valid points there. I have two Smartsubs and even though there is wonderful adjustment for these, placement is still critical. Too close together and summed ouput was difficult at best. Experimentation with placement smoothed them out very nicely. We are actually tuning the room when doing this after all.
Richardp01, This is fourth time this week I've tried to respond to your question with attention it deserves. Every other time I lost the contents just before sending. Oy! In the mean time your follow up posts answered a lot of questions I had for you at that time. Obviously you have found that for your preferred set up, in your room, the 3.5's sans eq with the Velodyne DD12 works better for you. Who am I to argue with your success and satisfaction? I generally suggest keeping the 3.5's eq in the system for a variety of reasons, even when using a sub. One can actually get deeper bass response from some of Thiel's smaller, less expensive models than using the 3.5's without the eq. Very often multiple sources of bass output will smooth out bass nulls and peaks better than bass output from a single source. Unlike the dedicated bass channel such as is found in home theatre audio, stereo bass when summed to mono can send conflicting signals, compromising bass output. Typically I would expect two 10" woofers to have less energy storage and more agility than one 12" woofer. As for the effect of the eq on the rest of output, I have no doubt that you hear what you do, but I am surprised. It's interesting that of the reviews printed around the time of the 3.5's release, such as those found in the Absolute Sound, HiFi Heretic, Sensible Sound and the original Stereophile review from Anthony Cordesman, only the later Stereophile review (and the only one that readers can now find on line) from then editor and owner of Stereophile Larry Archibald (who BTW kept the 3.5' s as his reference loudspeakers for longer than any other speakers other than the later and much(!) more expensive Thiel CS 5's) found any quibbles with the eq. Even he found the 3.5's better with than without the eq. Interestingly enough he suggested a bit of sharpening, of higher frequencies with the eq which is quite a bit different than the smearing you've noticed. FWIW, I do agree with Larry Acrhibald's opinion of the eq, including his observation that many audiophile often already have a prejudice to these type of devices. Such different impressions happen often, for example, as I recall the reviewer for The Absolute Sound found the 3.5's to be a bit (paraphrasing here (it's been a long time)) too buttoned down and reticent, where as Larry Archibald found them a bit forward. Go figure. FWIW, I find them neutral. Your suggestion of relieving the demands on your 100 Watt tube amp is not without merit, but keep in mind that the eq starts to increase impedance and ergo sensitivity as it kicks in which mitigates the demands on the amplifier, especially a tube amp. While a 100 Watt tube amp could certainly be adequate depending on room and desired sound volume, a bigger amp could negate those concerns. As for your use of the Velodyne DD 12, I think that the placement of which in your room might have something to with the improvement you've noticed. As does the digital processing it provides. That processing is especially interesting to me, as I've been long considering using a digital room correction device with adjustable eq function as a replacement for the Theil provided eq. As you've discovered, the likes of which can adjust the bass response to ones particular room rather than some anechoic standard. I've yet to find a budget friendly unit with enough eq adjustability to match the 3.5's equalizer yet. As for the recommendation that others try the Velodyne, I think it important to note that the original asking price of the Velodyne DD 12 is more than the original cost of the 3.5's! I would imagine used prices being similar. Furthermore, if one were to consider using a subwoofer, I'd recommend considering using two rather than one, for the reasons above, even if that meant using smaller ones.
Well, it finally arrived this afternoon from Nevada...
My Primare A34.2 is back in the box, up for grabs here on the site.
Damn, I forgot how heavy the Pass X150.5 was. Is.
What I didn't forget was how great my Thiels sounded with it in the past. It's back, and it's staying. I'm done. It's playing now. I'm a happy camper.
Well...kinda done. I just bought a Khozmo passive preamp for a pittance here on the site just because...well...
I think the Pass is as uncolored an amplifier that a body could hope for, I think that my 3.5's are also as uncolored a speaker that one could wish for, so why not toss a passive pre into the chain and see what is...revealed? (No, I'm not giving up my B. A. T. preamp.) My system is now complete, with the only exception possible being the availability of 3.6's or higher in a geographically/financially desirable future.
I would like to offer up another dilemna facing me. The Pass and the BAT have XLR connects that I would like to use, but this takes the Thiel EQ out of the chain since it has RCA connects. I could purchase XLR adapters, but that pretty much defeats the intent altogether.
Flatter is better. I did some careful listening to mens and women's voices comparing the boosted bass mentioned in a previous post (which sounds closer to the bass with the CS3.5 equalizer ) versus the bass adjusted to have a flat response and guess what? Flatter is better. Women's voices are less chesty and Frank's voice is smoother.
If anyone wants to add a sub woofer to his system I strongly recommend one with the measurement and balancing tools similar to those that come with the Velodyne DD series. The auto-balancing feature is not so useful; you really have to get in there and manually adjust the phase angle, crossover frequency, crossover slope and several parametric equalizers as well as the subwoofer volume to obtain a flat response. And you need a microphone and a signal generator and software to display the measured response on a TV or computer screen. All of that comes with the DD series.
Good thread- Dave. Thanks! for sharing. I was not impressed w/ Aerial either after reading so many positive reviews. I wanted to like them do not get me wrong.
I scored a replacement midrange driver for my 3.5s by placing a WTB ad on Audiogon. I soldered it in and voila! no perceivable change even though the mid driver I replaced had three holes on the surround. Since I thought the speakers sounded fine even before I started looking for a replacement there was no surprise. I will send the wornout driver to Thiel when the other one starts to fail. That way there is no down time for the repair. Now that I have the equalizer out of the circuit the other| driver may last forever.
By the way I've noticed a slight narrowing in the sound stage without the equalizer and a little better focus in the image overall. Everything involves a trade-off. For the moment I prefer the extra clarity in the sound to the slightly smaller stage. I have tube electronics so the highs are still smooth.
I also added a little more bass back in the system by raising the woofer crossover point. It may not measure as flat at my listening location but it moved the bass response closer to the original.
great to read! I can hardly await to read about your thoughts/impressions on matching the B.A.T. w/ a Pass Labs power amp! I do not think that I have read where an owner used both brands together. Interesting times indeed.
The main attraction will be the B.A.T. and your Transparent cabling. You may be the 1st to use such a combo. Hopefully ,synergy, will show up and blow you away!
My X-150.5 is enroute from Nevada. Should arrive by this time next week.
Last night I heard my CS3.5's chanting for it, first a whisper, then a scream by this afternoon.
Couldn't take it any longer.
I might very well be DONE this time. I'm going to be more serious henceforth about what I THINK I'm missing with my system.
I'll post a revised set of photos in my virtual systems section upon its arrival. I'll be selling my Primare A34.2 class D amp to offset this re-purchase.
I want to hang out with you, my friend! Luckily, Manley and Pass Labs are sonic matches for Thiel loudspeakers. Additionally, I have read about owners using M.I.T. cabling to boot. A win-win-win- all around.
jafant, Yes I have run an All Spectral system for (20) years. All the required MIT ICs, Speaker, PCs. Currently MIT Oracle MA X. The best cables that I have used! And they love my current system: Manley Steelhead, Pass 160.8s, Avalons. The Oracle's are hard to beat! Yes the Spectral 4000 is a fantastic player. But I am a Vinyl Guy. (83) CDs , approaching (3000) LPs. $10,000 for a used Spectral CD is not an option. 25yr old CD connected to the (1) Manley input w/Oracle's makes CD tolerable to warmup system or listen while doing other things. MIT has updated their line. The Oracles can be had for fair prices on the used market and well worth the price. If you can pay even the used cost. Best Wishes
back to my old friend here- I know you and the Pass Labs will interlude again very soon. Go ahead and grab the amp before the value and prices continue to increase! PL is the best solid state in 2016.
Back to Ginger Baker- I saw the documentary and felt it was wonderful. Besides "cabling" I read -an avid reader on Biographies/Autobiographies on musicians and/or bands. The Beatles lead the way. Followed by The Rolling Stones, The Who, The Grateful Dead...so many others....
While most of these people are/were straight-up entertainers, others, like Keith Moon, John Bonham, Bon Scott and Mr. Baker, of course, have "demons" that make them tick. For better or worse (the ones who died way too early) those demons takes them to unhealthy places and dispositions.
The good news: we will always have their musical contributions! Happy Listening!
excellent point about boxes & packing. I must confess that I did not bring home (Texas to Alabama) the boxes for my 2.4SE speakers. I simply, did not have the room and did want wish to make that wonderful trek w/ the speakers in the bed of my truck.
Turns out the weather was perfect, no rain, that whole trip. Who knew? This is the 1 st time I have ever turned down the boxes. I did bring home the packing, manual and even the plastic bags/wrapping are #'d for this limited edition speaker. Top quality folks!
Jafant... "Cyril Davis" from the album "Why?" is indeed my reference tune when I'm weighing comparisons - that tune with my Pass X150.5 a while back was pretty much stunning.
There's a similarly named cut on another one of his albums entitled "Cyril Davies", arranged slightly differently but they're essentially the same composition. Either version works for me.
I own Baker's Air Force recordings on vinyl, all of his latter and latest efforts on CD. I started revisiting his stuff after seeing the documentary "Beware Of Mr. Baker" about a year ago or so on some cable channel. It's quite an unflattering portrait of a very strange individual. Such a nasty man.
What surprises me all the more is how brief his time was with Cream and Blind Faith, yet that will certainly be the headline on and the bulk of material contained in his obituary. There's some pretty good stuff to be had during his post-rock days. "Why?" is quite good all the way through.
I'll say it once last time - I am a total idiot for letting go of the Pass. I. Am. A. Total. Idiot. For. Letting. Go. Of. My. Pass. Labs. X150.5.
I promise not to say that again. Let it serve as a testimonial to others whom might be considering a "better" amp for their Thiels.
Guys - just got an email from Rob Gillum in reply to an inquiry. Repair for coax in MCS1 is $250.00. I certainly don't feel this is a bad price. Shipping boxes/packaging for my CS2.7's however is $160.00.....Each! I figured I would get packaging in case they no longer supported, but I'm re-thinking now. I purchased second hand and no packaging was supplied in the deal.
Guys; All that have contributed to this thread have almost made me miss the 3.5s. And even though I have had a Spectral/Avalon system; Occasionally I still thought about the 3.5s. "Until a month ago." I acquired a pair of Pass 160.8s. I drive them directly with a Manley Steelhead. EVERYTHING the 3.5s (PRO AC, Sonus Farber, Wison,Avalon system was and "better" in every way. Have not rolled the tubes yet. As of now; tight, Musical, LOW bass, (no need for an equalizer or sub,) midrange to "die for", Highs shimmer and decay, Everything is natural and present. I am probably at my final "Forever" system???? At least that is what I am telling my wife. She says; she doesn't believe me! But admits that this is the best system/room we have had! I must say that it has taken many years to achieve this and that the Thiels are what kept me going. I surely say; Reference Quality at prices that are unbeatable. Buy a pair of Thiels for my other room? No. (Time to downsize some gear) The Manley, Pass, Avalons - Satisfy!!! Final thought; Vinyl, Tube phono, Class A SS --- RULES !!! For Me. For Now! Everyone, You're a great group! Enjoy your journey! Best Wishes.
jafant, I would concur about timbre. It's a quality I've only heard to the same sort of level in electrostatics. In fact, owning Thiels changed my long held perception that only electrostatics could create that illusion to the same extent.
It's the consistency of the 3.5's that just blows me away. They've handled every type of musical program I've thrown at them with equal aplomb.
I keep coming back to this, but it is a tragedy that Jim's design ideals aren't being adhered to any more. Here was a guy who dedicated his life to better sound and, I believe, took his designs to places that other speakers could only dream of arriving at.
It's the balance of their overall qualities that makes them the best value you can find. I'm constantly amazed by the relatively low prices on the used market, when they trounce so many grandee speakers.
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