Thiel Owners

In the early years, Thiel considered reflex bass as a necessary cost-compromise only for entry level products ie home theater and models 1 and 2. When it came time to replace the CS3.5 with the 3.6, I resisted going to reflex bass in the 3, which had always embodied our highest aspirations. The equalizer needed improvements which were judged too expensive for the target price. Fair enough. I lobbied (unsuccessfully) for a modified CS5 style bass with overall system impedance high enough such that the falling bass impedance could stay above 4 ohms. The prevailing argument was that ports (a performance step down from our passive radiators) were ubiquitous, even in speakers selling in $6 figures.

Nonetheless, our foundational commitment to time-alignment was compromised. Reflex puts the deepest fundamentals a full cycle behind the action. As duramax has said " the bass player is out in the parking lot". Thiel’s reflex bass is implemented as well as I’ve seen at any price, but it does unavoidably delay the deep bass.

So you know, we have prototyped an equalizer using Jim’s excellent topology but adding regulation and more beef to the power supply,  higher grade caps and metal film resistors - while still remaining affordable.

Another problem with straight bass (non-reflex) is that very large driver excursions are required, which works against our underhung, low distortion motors. My assessment is that if push comes to shove, an overhung woofer motor is far better aligned with Thiel values than is the reflex timing error.

All of the upgrade technologies we are developing in the SCS4 workhorse will be applicable to all Real Thiel speakers. The 7.2s weak link is a 400uF bank of electrolytic caps in a parallel notch filter. Although considered less audible than series-feed circuitry, shunt filters are audible. I have developed two fixes. 4x100uF film caps, which is expensive and large enough to only apply to an outboard crossover. But another fix is to replace the 4 x 100uF electrolytics with 8x50uF higher grade Els in a bundled layout concentric around a new Golden Cascade 1uF bypass with its coaxial sections decreasing to 0.015uF. That’s the minimus value we landed on and used in the CS3, 3.5, 2, 1 and 1.2. The cost and footprint of this fix is accessible for an inboard crossover. Lovely improvement.

Regarding duramax’s silver cabling. I have also found silver to be magnificent and free of any excess brightness - depending on design - many elements are in play in cables. I have some custom silver plated copper wire that plugs right into my BiFlow topology. The extra cost of silver is significant, but my geometry has cost-effective manufacturability. So a silver option is on the radar. 

Our behind-the-scenes rate of progress has been called ’glacial’. It’s really slow, but also quite large.

@tomthiel, of course you would know better than me. But, aside from being able to make the under hung motors more available across the various models , which  is somewhat negated by the lowered price point models using different woofers anyway, I think the sealed boxes were the better choice. Other manufacturers such as Dunlavy with similar performance goals were able to do it. Though to be fair the Dunlavy’s used more drivers in bigger boxes or used acoustic floor volume reinforcement. All of which created a different set of concerns. I’m not sure all would agree, but I for one think those, and the previous use of eq were worth it.

Unsound - I agree with you. The equalizer does everything right sonically. The bass extension rolls off at the bottom at 12dB/ octave like real unamplified output. The upper frequency electronic ’tizz’ is solved with the new unit.

Our problem, especially in the early days, was under-pricing what we were delivering, and therefore living under very strict budget limitations. Note Dunlavy’s price multiple vs a similarly-reviewed Thiel. I did some cabinet consultation for Dunlavy. Behind their curtain, Thiel’s component quality and overall performance / cost and was far higher. The Audio Upgrades re-design of Jim’s EQ is significantly better, but would have come in at about double the cost of Jim’s design.

As you know, our plans include reintroduction of retro-fittable midrange and tweeter to remove the obsolete product concern, and then offer this new EQ as an upgrade for your upgraded model 3 equalized models. There were 10,000 pair of model 3s with that equalizer (combined 03a, CS3 and CS3.5). Quite a few of those are still in use.

As background, I advocated for a higher performance line of our speakers which would have allowed greater budgets. Think Lexus / Toyota. That idea didn’t fly primarily because they felt it would cheapen the perception of our stock products. Marketing would have been more dimensional, but I think we would have shone brightly in that arena. I would have preferred that business model vs diving into Home Theater for survival as value-priced 2 channel faded against emergent HT.

devinplombier

You are correct the CS5i is sealed and CS 7.2 passive radiator. When I mentined sealed speaker I was referrring to the CS5i.

As Tom mentioned all the upgrades will be implemented across Thiel product line. 

I've listened to the CS 5i and CS 7.2 the past 8 months or so. 

In new room they are both dialed in and its a roller coaster ride of emotion. 

The CS 5i takes massive power for her to clear her throat and really sing. You havn't heard a botton end until you hear the CS 5i. When it hits it hits hard, fast,and with authority. 

Going to the CS 7.2 it takes time to acclimate as it cannot match the slam of the CS5i. The CS 7.2 has better tonal balanced though.

With the deep dive Tom has taken with extensive upgrades, these two models will rival speakers north of 50k very easily. 

Regarding using  silver cables  I have found that soft annealed silver is what you need. It has a very distinct characteristic. Fast, clarity, heightened soundstage and a natural decay so notes dont linger longer than what is natural. 

Any members here in N. Carolina are welcome to come on by for a listen and compare copper vs silver.

When you see a man tapping his foot with a smile on his face you know you arrived at the right place. 

duramax747

Thank you, this is very informative. 

I’ve been searching for speakers for over a year at this point. I narrowed it down to CS 5i and Infinity IRS Beta, and maybe Revel Salon 2. I say "maybe" because on principle I’d rather stay away from ported enclosures, but they got much praise that I would still like to seriously audition them.

I set up searches for all three, but the CS 5i and the Beta are rare as hen’s teeth here in the Pacific Northwest; and those outside the region are usually for local pickup only.

I would love to hear the CS 5i but unfortunately I won’t be able to take you up on your kind offer due to distance 🙂