Tom,
Great info about the older Thiels and the importance of the grills.Audiophiles often seem to take it as a matter of fact that "all speakers sound better with the grills off" so you almost always see audiophiles using their speaker without grills.
I've noted how grills have often enough made a speaker sound more coherent. Especially of course when they are designed to work with the grills on.
As to the design of the 3.7, I find them quite nice looking but also figured they would be off-putting to "normal folk." Thus I was greatly surprised - when I was trying to find a replacement for the 3.7s just out of interest I'd show people pictures of more "normal" looking speakers and ask which they would prefer to see in our room, and most said they preferred the look of the 3.7s! That went for my wife and her friends, even when I got the 2.7s which to me are about as subtle, contemporary and beautiful a design as speakers get, and my wife STILL said she preferred the looks of the 3.7s.
As I said, I found this all quite surprising.
Even though I myself find the 3.7s to look quite wonderful in my room, and in many other rooms I've seen them in, especially if the room has a more modern look.
|
tomthiel
Great stuff on the 02s, thank you!
I've still been listening to the 02s for something like 3 weeks now. I just can't tear myself away from how great they sound, in particular playing from my vinyl rig.
I have no idea about the condition of stuff hiding within my particular set up of 02s. They were bought new in either '81 or '82.
Not being a technical dude, I'd be terrified to open them and screw something up.
But any info you can pass along that would help me in case anything fails on these would be great. Are you planning a "better parts" upgrade for the 02s?
|
tomthiel,
I'm jealous of your finding that mint pair of 02s! I sometimes think I should get another pair as a back up. But then, I'm a hoarder of speakers :-)
Your mention of the BBC sound is apt as I've recently set up my old Spendor 3/5s in my system and I'm loving the heck out of them too.Incredible with the human voice and general ease-of-tone with a generally believable timbre.
I know we are all supposed to keep moving forward in fidelity, but it's often rewarding to re-visit some things old designs seemed to have done really well.
|
tomthiel
Fascinating, thanks again.
I’ve been listening to my little Spendor S 3/5 monitors in my system, for the past couple of weeks. Like the Thiel 02s these have, for me, some "magic tone" that makes me want to just keep listening.
I was listening to an LP I picked up, Genesis’ Abacab, and enjoying what these little speakers did with this record. But then I switched the speaker wires back to my Thiel 2.7s and cranked it. What a crazy difference. Especially from listening down the hall outside the room, the scale and punch to the sound was phenomenal. Phil Collins sounded almost like he’d invade a room in our house!
And the linearity and control of the big Thiels is something else. They sound linear and "boxless" not only in the listening room’s sweet spot, but even from just outside the room, in the hallway, or down the hallway.There’s no speakerly "bloat" that shows up, so it just sounds like instruments playing in that room, not boxes creating sound.
(I was inspired to hook up the 2.7s again after a listening session at my friend's house who has a big pair of over 20K speakers in for review...something of a new darling in the audiophile world it seems....and while they were excellent, I found my system much more convincing overall).
|
@tomthiel If you want a nice summary of the latest research, here’s an excellent thread on the AVSforum featuring Kevin Voecks of Harman, which as you may know employ and expanded upon original research from Floyd Toole and others. Lots of input from Floyd Toole in the thread as well. The second post in the thread goes in to detail as to the speaker performance/radiation parameters deemed desirable via blind-testing. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/3038828-how-choose-loudspeaker-what-science-shows.html |
|
|
I've tried searching before for any mention of what happened with the Thiel/Rolling Stone scenario, but never found any info.
|
|
Thanks for that, ronkent.
Ugh. Earbuds....
|
Speaking of Bryston, I used to own the 4B ST mostly to have a reference SS amp. It was a real work-horse and powered many speakers I had in my room, both when reviewing or otherwise. I have always felt I wanted to hear the general character of a speaker by using an SS amp - the speaker maximally under control as it were. But always, every time, I preferred the sound once I switched back to tubes, especially my CJ Premier 12s. Eventually I sold the Bryston because I didn't really need it anymore, the CJ seemed to control anything I put on them, and gave me that tube amp sound I seem to crave.
|
|
brayeagle,
What frequency do you cross over from your Thiel 2.7s to your sub?
|
@tomthiel
Thanks for that info re 2.7 and subwoofers. I've saved it!
Cheers!
|
Hi Warren, we communicated about your new 3.7s on the Steve Hoffman forum.
I've been "Thiels with tubes" for decades, myself. I use Conrad Johnson Premier 12 140W/side monoblocks and they have driven every Thiel speaker I've had great (Thiel 06, 02, 3.7, 2.7). And actually one of my favorite pairings with the 3.7s was my little 14W Eico HF-81 tube amp!Certainly not the last word in bass tightness (though surprisingly good), but wow what a sparkling, lush, organic yet lively presentation!
|
Warren
You are preaching to the converted about the quality of old Thiel speakers. In this very thread I've blabbered on about how much I love my super old pair of Thiel 02 speakers (circa early 80's). I sheepishly admit sometimes preferring listening to them over my 2.7s!
|
beetlemania
I can guarantee I could have impressed anyone skeptical of that pairing with a demo, especially if they didn't know what amp was driving the Thiels :-)
|
Interesting Warren, thanks.
I had contact with Kathy and she was a thorough, graceful professional.
|
oblgny,
Many of us are familiar with the sometimes odd and painful realm of selling and buying equipment.
I sold whole bunch of equipment over the last year (much of it shedding components I haven't been using).
When I was selling my Thiel 3.7s I had a guy who said he absolutely wanted them, we had a deal, he was going to the bank for the money, had rented a van to pick them up. Had the date set for him arriving to pick them up.
Then...radio silence. Completely awol.
Lots of puzzling behavior out there.
Fortunately I ended up selling my Thiels to an absolute "pro" buyer - great communication, did everything he said he'd do on time, a painless sale.
I always seek to be one of those buyers as well. As forthright as possible.
|
arvincastro
Though I prefer Conrad Johnson tube gear to ARC, I’ve certainly heard what ARC can do in various systems and appreciated it.
A pal of mine recently got rid of some nice ARC amps he’d been using for years. Wanted something beefier and more reliable and went with a big Bryston amp. He’s happy, but to my ears his system lost magic, and has taken on a more steely tone. I’m less happy listening to his system now.
I did some auditioning of various speakers yesterday, powered by Bryston amps (and I used to own a Bryston amp) and it only re-enforced my commitment to my tube amps. Everything hooked up to the Brystons was afflicted by a hardened, tight (and to my ears icey) tone. I know that is not what people enjoying those amps in their systems will hear, but it's what I will tend to hear. Which is why I have always gone back to tube amps. I just don’t think I’ll ever be someone who can get along with solid state amps for my system.
|
oblgny,
I had a similar situation last year. I’d saved for a couple of years to buy new speakers. Out of nowhere hit with huge financial blow. All that saved money disappeared in an instant, as did a lot more. Been digging out from under it ever since.
I have to say, selling old hi-fi gear isn’t exactly the fastest route to financial recovery ;-)
BTW, I was a fan of Meadowlark back in the day too. I liked the Shearwaters, I had the Heron-i speakers in my home for a while, and owned the little Meadowlark Swallow stand mounted speakers.One of my regrets was selling those little speakers - they have a combination of clarity, warm tone with simply astonishing "disappearing act" imaging. It’s one of those old "still-hurts" sales that makes me hoard my current speakers :)
As I’ve mentioned somewhere earlier in the thread, probably my biggest issue with the Meadowlark design was the weird interference that happened vertically between the drivers, due to the first-order design.A weird image/tonal shift hollowing out a little part of the frequency spectrum. Thiel seemed to have solved that first-order crossover issue in their later designs.
|
brayeagle,
Yes, still have the 2.7s. But I've been promiscuous in listening to my other speakers as well, lately.
andy2,
I even heard this mild hollowing-out interference a bit with the Thiel CS6 when I had it. Not nearly as bad as the Meadowlarks. I was frankly quite surprised when I got the 3.7s as to how this issue seemed totally banished. With both the 3.7s and my 2.7s, they sound remarkably even when varying listener position, either horizontally or vertically.
|
I've experimented a bit with stuff under my Thiels - spikes, isoacoustics footers etc.
I preferred the sound of the Thiels just sitting on my rug, no footers (beneath that, wood floor). Just by lifting a speaker up you can expect some changes to the sound, which means it's not necessarily coming from the material or footer you've used to raise it. And "different" sound of course may not be better.
|
Sad news that Roy Johnson, speaker designer/proprietor of Green Mountain Audio, has passed away.
Aside from the loss to those who knew him, that's one less Time/Phase coherent speaker on the market. Not many passive T/P speaker brands left (Vandersteen...and?...)
Apparently, like Jim Thiel, he took a fair amount of the knowledge of the designs with him.
It looks like the slack will have to be picked up by active speaker designs, more of which are doing time/phase coherence via incorporating DSP.
|
Avalon has never been T/P, as I recall.
Neither Magico. They don't claim to, and Stereophile measurements show they aren't trying.
|
"Meadowlark seems to be back:’ Interesting that they are no longer touting time/phase coherency the way they did back when they were doing passive speakers. I’d guess perhaps they are still trying to achieve it via DSP, but if so it’s weird that they don’t mention the time/phase coherency results. |
**peeks in.**
**decides to stay out of thread until cable discussion is over ;-)**
|
Hi Tom I’ve been able to use a fairly wide variety of cables in my system off and on (Nordost, Audioquest, others...often loaned or given by audiophile friends/acquaintances). But that’s not because I’m craving high end cables, just because if I need one I sometimes don’t have to buy them. (I’ve often given them back if I went on to buy my own). You won’t find me too helpful as I am not convinced about the case for expensive/audiophile cables. (Especially AC cables. Doing some blind testing of AC cables cured me of any desire for those long ago). Currently I’m using a mishmash of old Kimber PBJ interconnects that I bought long ago, I think there is an audioquest set in there, and some nordost for one connection (will probably replace that). I may replace all those with interconnects from bluejeans cable at some point. Probably no need, but some of the cables are pretty old and the bluejeans cable specs may suit my CJ preamp a bit better. My speaker cables are currently Belden 5T00UP 10awg, from bluejeans cable: https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/speaker/index.htmI had to do a 40 foot run or so for the speaker cables and went biggest awg just to ensure no audible transmission loss. I’ve heard speakers I own on this set up, and at my friend’s place who has borrowed or purchased speakers from me. He sometimes has up to 50 or 60 thousand dollars of cabling (Nordost, Crystal cable, others) for his system and the speakers sounded at least as good at my place. FWIW. Probably not useful to you, but there you go. Cheers! |
Jafant
Your Cable recommendations are always appreciated ;-)
Which CJ gear have you owned? |
Jafant,
Interesting CJ combo. I have the CJ Premier 16 LS2. Were you able to bring them home to try with the Thiels?
(I was just kidding about the cables - no need to waste your time telling me what cables you tested).
|
Boy oh boy, people here sure like Bryston amplification more than I do :)
(Strictly speaking it's not a problem with Bryston which are very competent amplifiers. I guess it's just that having owned Bryston, having friends using Bryston etc, for me that brand is the "poster child" for solid state amp sound, and I'm an inveterate tube amp guy when given the choice).
|
Wonderful post Tom! Thanks.
I used to follow J. Dunlavy's claims and met him once at an audio show.He sure wasn't shy about his opinions :-)
Also he was one of the very few speaker designers claiming his speakers could replicate the sound of real voices and instruments, and claimed he often did these live vs reproduced tests.
|
Tom, how did it work exactly? Would the subject (listener) first hear the live band, and then that was recorded and A/B'd somehow with the live musicians without the listener knowing which was which?
|
Very cool Tom!
I first heard Thiels on tubes at CES - in the VAC room where Kevin Hayes was using Thiel CS6s. I was completely entranced by the combo. Not being able to afford VAC and already having good experience with lower priced CJ amps, I sprung for the big CJ Premier 12 monoblocks, tried them with the CS6 and there was that magical sound I'd heard at the show.
But then, I tend to prefer certain tube amps on most speakers. I've never been able to settle in for very long with an SS-powered system.
|
Jim dismissed the pluses because he couldn’t get past the minus of insufficient deep bass control. Understandable, especially from his designer perspective. The reason I’ve held on to the Premier 12s all this time is because Michael Fremer’s old stereophile review nailed the character of these amps. They have that mid-band lushness, upper frequence glow/sparkle/aliveness and yet produce taught and controlled sounding bass with every single speaker I’ve ever owned. I never feel compromised with "tube bass" in terms of a flabbiness or lack of control. As I’ve written, the 3.7s on my CJ amps had the most controlled and coherent bass I’ve ever heard. |
I continue to be happy with and amazed by the dispersion characteristics of my 2.7s. Having been playing them for several guests, all of us seated along the listening sofa, the tonality remains so consistent from seat to seat, and they still manage to image for everyone.
They also sound particularly good from outside the listening room in my hallway. My speakers face the front of the house, and when outside that room down the hall, that puts you with the speakers both in another room and facing away from you. My Spendor speakers and my old Thiel 02s are more directional, so they sound more dulled from behind the speakers or outside the room. Especially the Spendor speakers sound more like "speakers" in hearing more of the back-radiated sound/port.
With the 2.7s they continue to sound so open tonally you'd still think they were facing you. They sound outside the room like they do inside the room - the same sense of "no speaker there, just the sound occurring in the space." It's quite fascinating actually.
|
After Thiel, I did some consulting including Hales. Remember the mid 90s upper end Hales’ with cast baffles? That’s the stuff. Maybe not coincidently, Thiel and Hales were among my favorite speaker brands of the 90s and continue to be so. I owned Hales Transcendence 5 speakers and still own and love my Hales Transcendence T1 monitors and center channel, which do home theater duty these days. |
As I wrote about in my own thread, I now have a Bryston 4B3 on loan from a friend. I've tried it on my Spendor speakers, Joseph Audio Perspectives, and soon enough will try them on my Thiel 2.7s. I've wanted to hear the Thiels powered by beefy solid state for quite a while so this should be fun. Though I'm betting the ultimate outcome will be similar to the other speakers. (Hint: I wanted to hug my tube amps afterwards!)
|
I've recently felt some despair concerning the amount of snake oil in our hobby and the industry, (when audiophiles wonder why we are a source of bemusement and mockery, we need look no further than the farcical high end cable racket).
I found revisiting some old interviews with Jim Thiel, print and video, uplifting in that regard. It is just so nice to see a real engineer speaking with humility, in sensible terms about real world phenomena, non-magical engineering goals, and making sense of the clever engineering steps he took to solve them. It's also confidence-inspiring thatsuccess of some of Jim's central goals were verifiable by independent measurements - e.g. those stereophile measurements showing the time/phase coherence had been achieved.
Aside from the wonderful sonic qualities of the Thiel speakers, it's rewarding to own a piece audio gear that is the result of, and emblematic of, both great engineering and the integrity of the designer and his company.
Jim sure was one of the good guys. (Same goes for Tom, and other Thiel employees).
|
"SOME of Jim's CENTRAL GOALS were verifiable by independent measurements ..."
;-)
|
beetlemania, I’m afraid I don’t have the same cynical constitution to take the view "if someone can get away with ripping people off by taking lots of money under false pretenses...more power to them!"
I actually care when people are ripped off.
And I’m glad others have cared whether I’m being ripped off or not, as I’ve learned from them and saved money through more knowledgeable purchases. And generally speaking, I think the proliferation of b*llshit matters; it makes it all the harder to do and get what we really want, if we are constantly having to dodge rip off artists.
To each his own...
|
beetlemania
Though I brought up my own disgust with the cable industry to make a point about Thiel, I don't want to turn this thread in to a cable debate, as I'm sure you don't either. So I'll just say, that although I know your position on cables, I took your last response to say you are ok with people being scammed or "bilked" of their money. That's the part I took issue with, not that you personally find that cables make a difference.
I'm not here to argue against your personal experience with cables in this thread. (But even granting that cables can sound different, that doesn't of course mean that some companies aren't making b.s. claims for their products, I'm sure you'll agree).
|
Heads up! A pair of 3.7s just hit Audio mart if anyone is interested! Oh man, I always wanted a pair of 3.7s in ebony!!! Someone will be awfully lucky to get those. The 3.7s are still probably the best over all speaker I've ever owned. |
I auditioned some other floor standing speakers today - Spendor D7s.
Meh.
All it did was remind me the Thiels are sooooo good! The Thiels have such a huge, chunky, rhythmic sound with incredibly imaging yet (especially with my CJ amps) an organic beauty.
Even though I'm probably adding another pair of speakers to my brood, I still can't see letting go of the Thiels.
|
I had the Morado because I couldn't find it in ebony (which is a perfect match for my room, as are the 2.7s I have in ebony). I was actually going to get the Morado re-finished in another ebony-like color, but ended up selling the 3.7s.
|
Andy,
My ears agree with yours.
If I had to generalize from what I hear in the Thiel first order upper frequencies vs many of the high order speakers, I’d agree with what you wrote: perfectly integrated in the Thiels. I simply can not "hear out" the tweeter at all. Where I often feel like I hear a little power/frequency dip in the transition to a tweeter, giving a slight pinched quality to the high end, on the Thiels the sound remains "thick and smooth" all the way up through the high frequencies. Where the best of the high order speakers do have a little bit more sparkle/shine and perhaps smoothness riding on top. I admit I can like both depending on mood.
Same with tube amps vs SS. Though I’ve tried various tube gear, by far most of my experience is with my own Conrad Johnson stuff (originally an MV55 amp, then the Premier 12s, along with my CJ Premier 16LS 2 preamp).
Every time I do an SS vs my tube amps test, one of the things that stick out is how the sound becomes more coherent and believable with the tubes. Vocal sibilance for instance which can take on a hardened electronic spikiness with an SS amp just seems to soften and sit back in to the voice in stead of stick out artificially, so then voices sound natural.Even when there are artificially enhances sibilance and transients due to microphone choices/mixing etc, the sound is still more comfortable and natural sounding. It almost feels like going from a not-quite-yet-integrated tweeter/mid driver to adjusting the crossover to a seamless presentation. (BTW, not that the Thiels in particular need tubes to be smooth and integrated. I think they are one of those speakers that is successful with any reasonable amplifier).
|
Andy, yes my "Contemplating Devore speakers" thread. I just added another speaker audition to it: Spendor D7s.
The Spendors just didn't sound as natural as my 2.7s. The 2.7s seemed to beat them in just about every parameter.
|
Yes I’ve been spoiled by the Thiels. Both by my current 2.7s and by my experience with the 3.7s. The 3.7 in particular seems to me an end-game speaker that will compete with the best for many years to come.
While I love checking out high end systems of any type, it’s the rare system that totally grabs me with a tone that makes my brain think "yes, there’s something beautiful it’s capturing there!" That’s necessary for me to get along with a speaker for any length of time, but most systems sound a tad tonally "off" to me. (I'm not saying I'm a special listener, only that I have a strong subjective reaction to tone and timbre, and it's hard for me to want to bother with long listening sessions unless my brain says "this sounds right" in some important way....many others find this too of course).
And this doesn’t mean that there is one single sound I’m looking for. I can find a seductive tone in a "modern sounding" speaker, or an older British design, or anything in between. Never know where it’s going to show up. That’s why I own a bunch of different speakers.
But man, coming home from the Spendors, the Thiels were like an oasis of everything I like - rich, smooth, organic, palpable, punchy, dynamic, naturally detailed sounding. Wow!
(And as I often point out, the Spendors were hooked up to all the fixings - expensive Nordost cabling, you name it, and there was nothing I heard in that sound that wasn’t evident and better in my own set up, without those boutique add-ons. In fact I had an audiophile drop over to listen to my system today and he was taken by the sound. He asked about my cabling and I told him it was standard Belden 10awg etc, and he was like "Wow, your system sure isn’t lacking in detail and amazing sound quality. Sounds like your cables are up to the task." Which is why my money goes in to speakers, where the money shows up strongest in the sound).
|
Heh, I’ve had quite a bit of experience having had access to very high end cables. I used to have boutique cabling - I even have some Nordost right now, just sold some Wireworld eclipse speaker cables I owned, today along with a pair of speakers. And I’ve brought Belden cables to compare in friends systems, one of whom has about 50-60k in “the best” cabling. So it’s not like I’m not speaking from any experience.
But....this is the place I’ve come to, and we all have our own audio journey. Respect to you, all views are welcome!
Cheers!
|
Thanks Jafant.
(I admit to being perplexed by Andy's theistic allusions in regards to audio...)
|
