What's the state of your Thiel 02 development? Could you remind me what you've done to the little critters?
Too bad this forum is so 1998 in tech terms; I'd love to see a photo of your 02s posted here.
Showing 24 responses by prof
Now that it's easier to post photos here... Here are some photos of my Thiel 2.7 speakers set up in my listening/AV room. The room used to be a single use 2 channel listening room. However in 2009 I got bit by the Home Theater bug and renovated the room in to dual duty: my 2 channel speakers now share the room with a projection based home theater, a large screen that has automated 4-way masking so it can change shape and size for the movie as required. The home theater surround speaker system is separate: Hales Transcendence speakers for L/C/R flanking the screen,Monitor Audio speakers for surrounds and rears. The room was re-done with the input of an acoustician and my architect friend. The ceiling is a drop down build that is actually stretched fabric (but looks solid) of brown felt. This is useful both for absorbing ceiling reflections from the screen so the image doesn't wash out. But also because all sorts of acoustic treatment/traps are hidden in there, and hidden elsewhere. It's a gorgeous sounding room and it's funny, even guests often remark when we are just sitting in the room talking "it sounds so good in here!" I built out a bit of black velvet-covered "stage" area below the screen, and covered all the HT speakers in very dark black velvet. The result is that, unless the room is very bright as in the photo, you often can't even see those speakers against the velvet backdrop behind them, so you just see the Thiels, making for a less cluttered look. Best I could do given how much I was trying to fit in to the room! But it worked quite well. All source and amps are down the hall in a separate room. I prefer a neat, tidy look that way. (In fact, the shag rug actually helps hide even the speaker cables to the Thiels. Horrors for those who use cable risers!) If anyone remembers my long-ago posts on looking to replace the bigger Thiel 3.7s in this photo you can see my problem. The 2 channel speakers have to be pulled well out from the back wall. That's good for sonics, but also puts the right speaker out in to the entranceway path in to the room. The 3.7s were just a bit too deep making it a bit awkward walking in and out of the room. The 2.7s were just smaller enough so that they can go in the same spot, but they don't impede walking in and out of the room at all. My Joseph Audio Perspectives are even smaller and less deep, so they work great too. Pictures: From the hallway just outside the listening/HT room :
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jazzman, I'm usually between 6 1/2 - 7 1/2 feet from the speakers. Closer usually if I've set up any of my stand mounted speakers (e.g. Thiel 02 or Spendor s3/5). Those Thiels are 7' 8" from my listening position at the moment. I have the sofa on sliders so I can actually move it back which I do sometimes. The normal listening distance is super immersive, but even a few inches back snaps the imaging and tone in to more solid form. I like both. |
Also, btw, the L speaker is closer to the reflective fire-place wall, so I have a thick brown velvet (same material as the curtains) cover I hang over that surface for listening. Balances out the upper frequencies perfectly with the R speaker, where I have a velvet curtain on that side cutting down higher frequency hash from the sidewalls. |
FWIW: I mentioned earlier in the thread that I was trying some Isoacoustic Gaia 2 footers for the Thiel 2.7. Not sure I followed up, so... My speakers sit on a shag rug overlaying a wood main floor. The floor clearly vibrates around the speakers and I can feel the sound right through to my legs when they are up on the ottoman and through the listening sofa. Kind of nice actually. But to experiment, I first tried (quite a while back) the Nobsound spring footers - cheap ones found on Amazon. Those amazed me, completely decoupled the speakers so no floor vibration, tightened up the bass somewhat and made the speakers disappear even more. Downsides were a lack of "room feel" so it became more electrostatic-like in presentation. Also the tone/timbre lightened up a bit too much, slightly thinned out. It was hard to tell how much this was due to the effect of decoupling vs just raising the speakers up an inch or two on the footers. Later I tried the expensive Townshend Isolation speaker bars, also spring based but much more seriously designed. I liked the fact they didn’t raise the speakers so was hoping to keep the tonality I liked. Well, it did kind of do what I was expecting - again, totally decoupled the speakers so no floor vibration. But it did leave the sound to be a bit richer. But for some reason it didn’t quite gel for me. The sound slightly changed tonality, a bit darker and almost a bit sluggish sounding. It was subtle but I still found I preferred the speakers on the floor, which gave more density and nice timbre to the sound. I was thinking that maybe what I wanted was something that semi-decoupled from the floor, which would tighten the bass, but also leave a bit of feel for the music. Along those lines I tried a Primacoustic Recoil Stabilizer unit under the speakers. Unfortunately I didn’t find that did anything at all to better the sound. Didn’t really seem to tighten up the bass much and the speakers sounded more "together" and right just on the floor again. My last ditch effort for this stuff were the Isoacoustic Gaias. Again, I was hoping for a sort of in-between of the spring based footers and the sound of the speakers on the floor. I was quite impressed with the Gaias once they were installed! The bass did tighten up, speakers disappeared more, a bit more clarity, and yes a bit of tonal change but not off-putting, at least at first. And there was still some more "bass feel" that I didn’t get so much with the other spring based footers. So I’d been living with those for the last couple weeks. I’ve quite enjoyed the way the Thiels disappear even more. But over time I found the tonal change not quite to my liking. It had lightened the tone a bit too much, just a bit too blanched and lean. I had a feeling that this tonal change may not have been due to the Gaia isolating the speakers so much as raising the height more (I had used the isoacoustic carpet spikes too, which raised the speakers even more). Now, supposedly it really helps to have the carpet spikes with a carpet, so the Gaias can be more secured to the floor beneath. But to experiment and hopefully lower the speakers a bit, I took off the carpet spikes. And...voila! That did indeed bring back some richness to the tone! They still seemed to be working enough to keep the bass pretty tight - not quite as tight and precise, but still very good - but I definitely preferred the sound over all. So at least for now (unless I notice something over time) I’ve got as close to what I was looking for as I have found.
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I actually just ordered some Gaia 2 feet for my Thiel 2.7s. I tried the Townshend Seismic speaker stands (spring based) and didn't totally get on with them. They did reduce bass resonance and maybe the speakers disappeared a bit more, but also changed the tonality enough that I preferred the speakers directly on the floor.
The Gaia won't decouple the speakers as completely as the Townshend stands, so I'm hoping they sort of split the difference. I'll let you guys know how it goes.
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I'm about to try the Isoacoustics Gaia 2 for my Thiel 2.7s. I picked them up this week. My 2.7s sit on a thick shag rug, covering a sprung wood floor. I have tried all sorts of footers and isolation - Thiel spikes, Herbies gliders, cheap spring footers from amazon, expensive Townshend Isolation bars and more recently Primacoustic Recoil Stabilizer platforms. In every case I've preferred the sound of the Thiels sitting directly on the floor. There is more connection to the sound and I like the timbre of the sound that way. However, I do have a bit of bass warmth I'm trying to work out. So I'll see how it goes with the Gaia. I actually have had a set of 4 isoacoustic pucks which I'd bought to try under my turntable for isolation (I went with Townshend isopods instead). At one point I put them under one of my speakers just to try out. Didn't think much of what i heard (softer, darker sound). But then, they weren't made specifically as speaker footers. I'll report back how it goes with the Gaia. (I don't have the outriggers for the 2.7s. As I remember, I actually gave those outriggers to the person who bought my 3.7s, because I didn't have the outriggers for that speaker). Hopefully the Thiels won't be too tippy with the Gaia.
I've experimented with a bunch of |
The shag carpet combined with underpad is pretty thick. No I'm not having stability problems without the carpet spikes. You can wiggle the speakers a big if you grab them, but they feel solid and not easy to push over.
I never actually tried the official Thiel spikes under these speakers. My previous Thiel 3.7s didn't come with spikes, but the 2.7s came with the outrigger and spikes. I hadn't bothered trying them and I included that stuff with the 3.7s when I sold those. I think I didn't do the outriggers because I liked to experiment with different speaker positions and it was much easier without spikes. I also used Herbie's slider footers underneath for a while, which didn't raise the speakers much. Every time I've raised them I didn't care for the tone as much, so I wonder if this has something to do with a tonal change due to changing the bass reflection boundary when raising the speakers.
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I'm pretty sure I detailed my impressions of the Isoacoustics Gaia under my Thiel 2.7s somewhere not long ago in this thread. But just in case I'll copy/paste my comments from another thread: -------------------
So..finally...I got around to trying some Isoacoustic Gaia 2 isolators. I’m really late to the party with those. One reason is that I actually had some isoacoustic pucks left over from building an isolation base for my turntable. I’d tried the four of them under one speaker, didn’t think I heard anything I cared for. So I followed through with the Townshend stuff which seemed to be rated even higher than the isoacoustics for decoupling. (Plus...I’d done my own experiments measuring the vibration isolation properties of the Townshend springs vs the Isoacoustic pucks I had, and the Townshends provided far superior decoupling). What I was looking for, ideally, was to get enough isolation beneath the speakers such that the bass would tighten up, they’d disappear some more, but not SO much that I lose any sense of room feel and palpability to the sound that happens when I fully decoupled with spring footers. I figured perhaps the Isouacoustic Gaia just might be that that 1/2 way point. And...that is pretty much what I seem to be getting! With the Gaia’s installed, the bass tightened up pretty nicely, the speakers did vanish a bit more from top to bottom, a bit more space around instruments/voices, but the speakers still have some density and punch as well. I’m still getting used to it, evaluating if I’m going to keep the Gaias under the speakers or not. It did slightly change the tone of the speakers and I’m not sure how I’ll get along with that. I need more listening. But so far I’m quite impressed with the product. |
Where you working to somehow make the Thiel 02 time/phase coherent, or are you keeping the basic original design? Also, sometimes I wonder what modded 2.7s would sound like. Any idea what one would do to "upgrade" those? I always think about a more solid-re-enforced front baffle...and I don't know...better caps?
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tomthiel,
Thanks so much for all the detail on the 02s and 2.7 upgrade ideas! I don't know that I'd touch my 02s, and if I were ever to try and upgrade them I'd probably find another pair to do so. As for the 2.7s, I really have got them sounding glorious. That said I have my Joseph Audio Perspectives back from being upgraded to the "Graphene 2" version (new drivers/crossover) and they do dig out more timbral nuance than the Thiels at this point. But the Thiels sound overall more authoritative, thick, dense and rich. So I sometimes wonder about what the 2.7s would sound like...even more refined.
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Well...I might suggest that it's not the Gaias to blame for not hearing differences with an expensive "audiophile" ethernet cable. But...that's another subject... I didn't care for the Gaia 2 on my Thiel 2.7s with the carpet spikes. Also leaned out the tone a bit. But once I took the carpet spikes off coupling the Gaia directly on the carpet (over wood floor) I find out to be a nice 1/2 point between gaias and no gaias - some nice sonic benefits, but still nice tone. |
Wait, what? New black coax drivers? What is that about? How did they become black? Just a few days ago I was thinking about my 2.7s that I’d like to try them with the grills off, but I would find the shiny drivers too distracting. I literally wondered if I could spray paint the co-ax black! Maybe these new coax are just what I need. I need photos! |
Thanks for the info @tomthiel
I saw the photo. Ok, so it's only the surround that is painted black. I'd hoped it was the driver that was black. Not sure it's useful to me then, but I'm thankful you posted the photo. cheers. |
