@andy2
I replaced every passive part from the binding posts to the driver hookup wire.
Binding posts: Cardas "CPBP" (rhodium over silver), dual for biwire
Woofer in: Cardas 2x15 ga twisted pair plus 2x17.5 ga hand twisted (~14 ga equivalent)
Woofer out: Cardas 2x15 ga twisted pair
Coax in: Cardas 2x15 ga twisted pair
Coax out: Cardas 2x17.5 ga hand twisted
(wire gauge per Tom Thiel recommendation; OEM wire was 18 ga throughout)
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Sound's good beetlemania, what a piece of wire can do ;)
Btw, the tighter/more bass was with the wax coil's |
Hi beetlemania,
As for the cables, I was wondering if you also changed the cables that go from the xover boards to the coax and bass drivers?
Thanks. |
very curious about your findings!!
@holco
I was able to compare the Cardas and FST channels in mono
over the weekend. Not an apples to apples comparison because I used the Cardas
in biwire configuration, so changed two variables at once (actually three
variables: hookup wire, binding posts, and biwire cabling). I do have jumpers
and will compare biwire to single speaker cable later (in stereo instead of
mono) but wanted to maximize any differences for this test.
One thing I did *not* hear was increased bass impact as you
reported. There was one song where I *did* hear much more prominent bass (and a
less than pleasing glow on vocals and such) but it turned out that I failed to
disconnect the FST channel, so was hearing the output from both speakers (the
FST speaker was behind and slightly to the side of the Cardas speaker at the
time). Laughing out loud.
First off, the FST channel sounded great and I would have
been happy if that were the final configuration. The Cardas didn’t reveal FST
wire to be “broken”. That said, the Cardas wire/binding posts bring what I
would call an ultimate level of refinement. The differences were subtle in mono
but important for the sound I’ve been seeking. I heard more immediacy/presence,
more flesh. A bit richer tonal saturation. This was most apparent on vocals and
instruments sharing the frequency of human voice (guitar, violin, woodwinds,
etc). Also, acoustic bass, kettle drums and toms. I did *not* hear any
differences on cymbals, chimes, and bells.
Yesterday I installed the Cardas in the second channel. Listening
in stereo revealed that this effort and expense was well worth it. It’s hard to
describe the sonics, but I’ll try. The Cardas wire/posts (and biwire speaker
cables) “snapped everything into focus”, gelled the sonic picture into a
cohesive whole. I would say more openness and clarity, more immediacy, denser
images, more holographic, and a sweeter/richer midrange. I had been considering
an ultra bypass cap to sweeten the midrange – no longer on my to-do list.
There is no end to combinations to investigate. My
configuration came mostly from the mind of Tom Thiel who brought his wealth of
knowledge and experience, and spent many months researching the possibilities
for the CS2.4. With more time and money, I thought I might further investigate
some “ultra” possibilities (Clarity CMR caps, possibly mixed with Jantzen
Alumen Z; Jupiter copper foil or Audyn True Copper Max bypasses; Path Audio
resistors in the coax and woofer feeds). But that was before I heard my
configuration with the Cardas. The sound I am getting is astounding. Other than
low bass, I really can’t ask for better performance. Just, WOW!
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desmond888Thank You for the update. I look forward in reading more about your new company system. Happy Listening!
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Lately, i'm busy with company new system. I have yet to find and send it a suitable technician.
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desmond888give us an update on the amp situation.
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very curious about your findings!!
I will post my subjective impressions. Hope to find time to compare this weekend. |
Beetlemania,
Good to hear that you finally found the time to upgrade the internal wirering, very curious about your findings!! |
desmond888
have you found a source to repair the power amp? Hope you are making connections for servicing out there. |
@holco
I now have Cardas hookup wire plus double binding posts in one channel. Some of the job was challenging but everything seems good in the final result. Going to let it cook for a few days before I compare to the other channel in mono.
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Same for me beetlemania, it's like I said before, I now have loudspeakers that I never thought I good own.
But there is one more thing that lingers in my head to improve, maybe later ......
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think I have taken the maximum out of the CS2.4
I think I'm there, too. If I had ample money and time, it would be interesting to experiment with ultra caps (Jupiter, Dueland), resistors (Path), and try the wax foil coils. But if I had that much money I would probably just buy Vandersteen 7s and call it a day! I think my modded 2.4s sound as good or better than anything new up to at least $20K and for a fraction of the price. |
desmond888,
I call it more bite ;) really like how they are now and think I have taken the maximum out of the CS2.4 :) |
Dear holco,
After you mounted the Jantzen wax coils, i noticed the sound is more transparent but slightly edgy. I think you need to run in further to discover its full potential.
I strongly believe that it is another great upgrade. |
Dear jafant,
I'm using meridian cd player g08 for source, goldmund 18.4 mono blocks paired with pathos in control pre-amp driving thiel 2.4.
As my power amp is currently out for service, i have used my av amp, denon to run in my speakers.
I hear the mid starts to open up and high is more resolved. Hope that the mid can open up more and make it sounds balance. Otherwise, i may need to un and resolder the caps.
You are using thiel speakers too? Can you share your system with us?
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desmond888
what gear is in your system? Happy Listening! |
Dear holco,
Your system looks neat and clean.
Well done for your upgrade. Your system sounds wonderful. I can hear that your system is very airy and opened now. The sound stage is big and wide.The high frequency is well extended without fatigue but smooth. Your speakers have wide dispersion. The speakers sound totally disappeared from your system.
The above are just my two cents.
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I made a new recording of my CS2.4 with now also the Jantzen wax coils mounted. The recording is made twice, 1 time with the Thiel's connected to earth and 1 time without the earth connection, the recording is mixed so that every 30sec is switched between the two recordings, you can also see that in the picture if there is or not a ground wire to be seen next to the speakers. I do not hear a difference myself, but it could be that the speakers first have to play a week without the earth wire to hear a difference, who knows ........ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wws3q_bQCiwDirect link for download https://free01.thegood.cloud/index.php/s/kQQZQ8e2QY9LTW6 |
Yesterday I placed the last upgrade of this project, I am talking about the Jantzen wax coil's that took some time to arrive but finally I have them mounted on the woofer crossovers and listened for a few hours to what they do in the whole picture.
Believe me, the Wax coils are the icing on the cake!!
Equal to the coax, the upper bass / low mids in the room now places more up front and outside the speakers and the bass / low mids has more weight / push and detail, the Wax coils clearly!! show an improvement with every kind of music in the lower regions, music with low voices like for example Leonard Cohen sounds really freaking good.
I am totally happy with how the speakers are performing now, by default I was already very impressed with the CS2.4 but now they perform at a totally different level!! what I want to say more is that there is absolutely no sharpness or rawness to hear, rather the opposite!! with still the beautiful Thiel character present.
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Thank you guys, glad that I have been able to contribute something :-)
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holco
Outstanding! work. Happy Listening! |
Today I made a recording of my installation with the song Takla Makan by Yello, sound recording was made with a Tascam DR-40 v2 in the format WAV 24bit-48k, the video is just from my phone. Now is You-Tube not the most suitable medium for sound and often there is no option to listen to it optimally via the equipment You-Tube plays, so also a link from the original sound file for download so you can directly put the file in your music streamer for the best result. This recording gives only an impression and is far from how it sounds 1: 1 but I thought it would be nice to share it. Original sound file out of the Tascam: https://free01.thegood.cloud/index.php/s/WjKpX2wADS37x8HYou-Tube link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_CIpgiH5Zo&t=117s |
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Sorry guys, i still have yet to send my amp for service. Just excited with beetlemania resistors upgrade.
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A measured of 30.1ohm on the coax xover makes sense. Based on the coax xover schematic, there is a 30ohm resistor in series with the resistance of the 0.15mh. The typical resistance of a 0.15mh inductor is probably in the range of 0.1 - 0.3 Ohm. So if you add both together, it's about in the range of 30.1 - 30.3 Ohm.
In my experience, Clarity cap tends to sound slightly mid range forward. The CS2.4 driver being very transparent so this may explain the perceived lower bass response balance. |
desmond888 how is your power amp? Can you talk about the other gear in your system? Hope you are well and having fun with your cross-over project.
Happy Listening! |
Has you opinion of the CSAs changed? |
I did not attempt to compare Mills and Vishay Mills. I read one opinion that the older Mills are better but Tom Thiel thinks this is not worth worrying about. And it’s mostly academic because the CS2.4 values force you to buy some of each - impossible to make this comparison even if you wanted to. |
Dear beetlemania,
I'm comtemplating to upgrade the resistors in my xover suggested by you. May i know is there any sonic difference between the old millls resistor vs vishay mills resistor? Which one sounds better?
Dear holco,
Can you share some videos or thoughts after the major upgrade?
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@holco
yes, I literally had a grin on my face after I had the second channel upgraded. I was able to hear the improvements in mono but going to stereo put me in musical bliss. Wow! |
Finished the second loudspeaker and there seems nothing wrong, except my jaw is on the floor, what a great great great sound!!! |
Probably a question for Tom Thiel . . . I do know for individual components +/- 3-5% is acceptable, but maybe the tolerance is tighter for the global circuit? As a check, l compared the frequency response of a tone glide with and without the upgrade (well, OEM boards with resistors replaced). All good in my case. If the balance sounds right, you’re probably good. If you’re paranoid, ask Tom on the other thread. He *might* recommend modifying a resistor value.
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The second board measure also 30.1 ohm, so atleast they are exactly the same, think that it is the Jantzen Cross coil, 0.12 ohm vs the 0.3 ohm on the original air-coil. |
beetlemania,
My two boards measure with only the Jantzen caps upgrade 30.5 ohm
after the upgrade with all other parts on the bigger PCB's I measure 30.1 ohm on the first ready one, could this be a tolerance effect between the resistors? Do I have to worry? |
@desmond888
Are you asking about capacitance or resistance? The DC resistance on my FST coax board (with Mills resistors) was 30.5 ohms, 0.4 ohm on the woofer board. My new boards matched those values within 0.1 ohm. On my copy of the 2.4 layout, someone hand wrote 32 ohms for the coax, <1 ohm for the woofer. But that layout is for point to point on masonite. Tom Thiel discovered the values were later adjusted for the PCB environment. Holco’s copy indicates 31 ohms for the coax. Ideally, you would have measured that before you started your upgrade.
This is measured simply by connecting your ohm meter from the + in to the + out. |
Unfortunately, my power amp has some issues following a rainy day. I need to send it for service.
Sadly, i have to say that i cannot contribute more at the moment.
Nevetheless, i'm glad to hear that all your upgrades yielding postive results.
I may need to recheck all soldering of the caps in the crossover after i have serviced my amp. My last heard was not so great. Somehow i feel that some frequencies were either weaker or missing resulting it to lose excitement.
May i know how to check the crossover with a capacitance meter and what is the value i shall get with the new caps? |
The degradation of the low-end is not something I experienced, I would even say that for the modification the low/mid was leading at the mid/high and there is now a better balance.
It's possible that the mod may have lifted mid a bit so relatively the perceived bass is a bit diminished. |
desmond888how is your upgrade breaking-in? Happy Listening!
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Thanks beetlemania.
Ordered them :-) |
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The Mills gave a richer, fuller sound. I guess “more saturated “ is one way to describe it. Most importantly, the Mills removed a subtle “glassy” quality in the midrange and resulted in an ease of presentation, ie, reduced fatigue during long listening sessions. An easy recommendation, especially given the relatively low price. |
beetlemania,
Yes the coil's are looking good and tight.
How did the Mills resistors worked out for you?
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@holco fair enough. Unless you have an FST-sourced XO like me (and your pics indicate you have a Lexington XO), the OEM coils are already excellent. I agree your boards will most benefit from better caps and resistors. |
beetlemania,
Because I can't get those small values in a Jantzen wax coil I decided to leave it in, not a big deal I think, the resistors and the caps play a lot bigger part on SQ
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On my boards, that coax feed coil is an ERSE FoilQ. It is availble in 16 gauge at 0.15 mH. The OEM aircore one is 18 ga but I cannot tell it hurt anything to increase the gauge and was OKed by Tom Thiel. Then again, I’ve changed so many parts at once that it is near impossible to say where the biggest improvements came from. Well, I did change the resistors to Mills as a first step, so I know what those add to SQ. I will soon compare the Clarity CSAs with and without bypasses on the coax feed. |
Good question beetlemania, will look into it.
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@holco curious why you’re putting a foil coil on the woofer board and not replacing the one in the coax feed (0.15 uF).
One caution for the DIY crowd from Tom Thiel is to pay attention to the DC resistance on the boards as new parts can change these values and upset the balance. In my case, the new parts matched original values within 0.1 ohm. As Tom’s beta tester, I have full value capacitance in single caps. Only my bypass caps (~1% Multicap RTX) are in parallel, but those did not add measurable resistance. |
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