@ghn5ue You bring up an interesting point. I was hoping that Benz was still supplying cartridges, and had actually made a deal to a acquire the LPS MR from one of my local dealers. He called me and told me the situation, which lead me to cancel the order. I then confirmed this with the distributor for the US...Musical Surroundings.
Now, if Musical Surroundings decided that they wanted to torpedo the Benz Micro company due to some internal scenario, that I cannot say! ( and it wouldn't be the first time that a disgruntled distributor has done something unscrupulous like that....!) However, I have no knowledge that this is the case, and no reason to believe that is the situation. |
@tatyana69.Please do tell us how your Benz is going to be serviced now that Benz has gone? By Soundsmith??? Sure, that is ’if’ you want a totally different SQ...
IME, re-tips by aftermarket vendors never end up giving the same result as a re-build by the original manufacturer. Personally, I don’t shop for a cartridge based on the cost of the future re-tip/re-build. That aspect is to me of lesser importance, because I am unlikely to do that for several thousand hours- and therefore the cost is essentially amortized over the life of the cartridge. However, what does concern me far more, is the issue that the company that I just bought my expensive cartridge from, is likely to be there in the future...in order to do the re-tip/re-build. While no-one can accurately determine this aspect, there are some companies that IMO have a higher probability of being around than others. Benz has had ’issues’ for years. |
@jperry Like I stated above, my Benz dealer and the US distributor...Musical Surroundings. Do you know something that would contradict that? |
Interesting, I believe I spoke to John. Since it would appear that these guys are no longer the US representatives, I wonder why they lead me ...and my dealer friend,to believe the company was no more. Since I had a deal with my dealer to acquire an LPSMR, I wonder if they couldn’t be bothered to source it for us! If that is the case, I think that is pss poor customer service! Like i stated above, it would not be the first time a representative that has lost the line acts unscrupulously. Now I have more questions about that, but I have acquired another cartridge entirely, and so it is moot to me now. Pity, as my dealer friend ended up not being able to assist me with any cartridges and lost the sale. ( he represented only Benz and Transfiguration).
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Reflecting on this a little more, there certainly is a dealer in China, who is active on this forum, selling Benz cartridges, among others, at excellent pricing. However, he is not an authorized dealer for these brands. As a grey market vendor, I wonder how he seems to have such an unending supply of these cartridges?
I mentioned this in my OP. |
@handymann An excellent question! One that I would like to see answered as well.
Interesting data point. We have several vendors on eBay in Japan selling Koetsu's, as an example. NONE of them have ANY feedback from buyers about their Koetsu buying experience...NONE! Plenty of feedback about inexpensive items that were acquired from these vendors, none on any higher priced cartridge sale...hmmm!!! |
You really have no idea about what I am concerned about, do you?
Please re-read my OP, and attempt to understand why the current high priced cartridge buying status quo isn’t, at least imho, a very palatable scenario for the high end cartridge consumer.
Let me give you a simple example of why I think this is a problem...
You have just gone out and spent $10k on a new cartridge, one that you have never heard before( because no dealer stocks it, and because even if they did, they are typically not demoing this model; or assuming that they do have it on demo, the arm and table that they utilize is VERY different to yours).
You plunk down your hard earned cash— ? , and the dealer mounts it for you, or maybe you do it yourself , either way, the cartridge is now on your own arm and table. Presumably safely mounted and correctly set up. You give it a listen, and...
ooops, it sounds like sh—t!
According to your philosophy, no problem, after all, what’s $10k to you, lol. So, now your options are a) sell cartridge used for a significant $ loss, b) learn to live with the debacle and be a BiG man, or c) see if the dealer will somehow accommodate you given the fact that he highly recommended the cartridge in the first place...
please do ‘enlighten’ us as to which one of these is your position.( somehow, I seriously doubt it’s b...)
Now, I’m not saying that I expect all dealers to allow me to first try expensive cartridges in my own system first, without some kind of off-setting compensation...that’s your assumption.
BTW, are you a cartridge dealer or manufacturers rep, because if you are, I can easily tell that you have little to no concern about your customers,or their customer satisfaction.
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@papafrgog. +1
Add to that as you increase the budget, the more it becomes not just frustrating, but also economically more untenable. Not saying that plenty of folks don’t have any issues with the economics, but I happen to know of more than a few folks, who have incredibly deep pockets, that do! |
@chakster You are still not understanding this point...many people, including myself are not going to purchase a used cartridge.. Simple reason, you have no way of truly knowing how many hours that cartridge has on it. Plus, who knows how the rest of it is performing, suspension issues etc., Consequently , whether it is up to manufacturers specs is anybody’s guess. Therefore, there are many folks, including myself,who aren’t going to risk what you propose; perhaps unlike you, they are not willing to risk damaging expensive vinyl with a once and done play due to the defective stylus. You still don’t believe that these old worn vintage models and the worn out modern cartridge can be a factor in this regard. Remind me to never buy any vinyl from you, lol. |
@boxer12. Ok, so maybe you can answer me this....how do you know that the stylus on the old cartridge with unknown amounts of usage, is not worn out?( to the point of doing damage on the first play). Taking the cartridge to a ‘professional’ has not been productive,IME. I don’t think there are too many people who actually know what the correct shape and faceting of the diamond is supposed to look like. Plenty of folks are willing to guess at it though.
Please do tell us exactly what you are looking at when you ‘inspect’ the used cartridge. |
Ok my turn, lol...boxer12
Please do tell us what a worn Shibata stylus looks like, or a worn micro ridge, or worn line contact, or even a worn out elliptical. I’m not saying you don’t know what they look like when they are worn, as I am certainly hoping you can share that information with me...and the other members. However, I am saying that most people have absolutely no clue. Including dealers and other ‘professionals’, who are only too happy to guess at it!
Now here’s the other problem with many high end MC cartridges, IME, replacing the stylus with a Soundsmith,or other non factory replacement, results in a cartridge that is usually a fraction of what it used to be when factory fresh.
Whether this issue applies to vintage SPUs etc., which presumably can be rebuilt by the factory, I have no idea, but I’m not willing to go through the hassles of finding out.YMMV. |
@boxer12. You are telling us that you know what these diamonds look like when they are worn by looking at Google examples...??
For example, a worn out Micro ridge stylus has what damage to the facet and at what angle? I may sound condescending here, because frankly I am sick of hearing from people who defend their Bs with more Bs.
Don’t get me wrong, you may have the necessary experience, I have no way of knowing, but your last point about Google is making me wonder.
Sorry, but IF you really have no clue about what a worn out stylus looks like, then I think you might want to state that and not try and defend a position that is BS.
Over the years, I have spoken to numerous folks who have told me that their experience with buying used cartridges has led to one disaster after another. Mostly due to worn out styluses and worn out suspensions. Now according to others here, there is no issue with buying an old vintage cartridge with thousands of hours on the stylus and then being perfectly happy with the results...this is exactly what brought my friend into the vintage cartridge fold. Unfortunately, for him, the cost was quite high, maybe for others they don’t care, but like I stated, please make sure I never buy any vinyl from you! |
@boxer12. You have stated enough, now I am certain of your expertise.
@nrenterI totally understand that once you try a cartridge it is considered used, which is exactly one of the problems that we are discussing.
However, I am questioning whether or not there is a solution to the issue presented in my OP. So far, we have had a few potential options/solutions given...maybe re-read some of the thread and see what the thoughts about this are.
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Nobody have any experience buying high end cartridges, like Koetsu, from vendors on Ebay in Japan, or elsewhere? |
Thanks for giving us a heads up about Juki. There are several vendors on eBay and a couple here that are very much grey market. Odd thing is that they seem to have good feedback on ebay, except nothing that relates to cartridge sales! Kron on this site seems to basically have the Benz Micro line sewn up.
Have to wonder how these guys get their supplies, when the regular dealers apparently cannot?
Question becomes if there are counterfeit cartridges on the market? I do know that the rep fronVan Den Hul told me that there is a vendor in the Netherlands who is taking very old Van Den Huls and retipping them and basically re-freshing them. Selling them as more current models than what they are!
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@hdm I think it fairly obvious that you don’t believe in buying expensive cartridges. Reason I say that is if you did happen to spring for one of these, I seriously doubt you would want it compromised once it needed a retip by any of the non factory retippers. My previous Benz could be retipped by Soundsmith, ( although it doesn’t need a retip yet), but why would I go that route, I would end up with a cartridge that wouldn’t hold up to my old Benz...and therefore imo would be a kludge at best. |
I am having a hard time comprehending this...how is that the grey market vendors of high priced cartridges can not only beat retail prices easily, but also have plenty of supply?
As an example, with Benz cartridges, there are a few grey market vendors ( one who is on this forum) who have plenty of supply, and yet the US dealers and reps tell us that these cartridges are now unobtanium. What gives? |
Looks like the ZYX line has gone into a new cantilever material...Carbon Fibre. That should be an interesting aspect as to whether these cantilevers prove to be durable or not. Although, I would see no reason to suspect that they would be any better or worse than Boron.
@hdm Without doubt, one doesn't know what the results of a re-tip from a after market re-tipper will be until one receives the result and listens to it; but I have a few friends who have gone this route ( with high priced cartridges) and none of them were very pleased with the resulting SQ. One attempted to sell his cartridge with full disclosure, he got a few pennies on the dollar after months on the market. So, the after market re-tipper is not something I would consider.
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@thepreludeimplicit. You bring up some very good points. Why do you have no true high end shop in a Metro area of 2 million...where you can purchase a high end cartridge? I guess I’m lucky, as in my area with about the same population, I do have one or two shops that are dealers...although they don’t seem to carry any inventory. The 7layer BS salad is certainly prevalent these days, which is why I think it is so very important to listen to gear in consideration in one’s own system before committing to an expensive purchase. Others apparently are only too happy to risk large $$ on either someone else’s recommendation, or just go in totally blind. Not ideal at all imho. |
@tsloan You sound like another dealer who is trying to justify this practice. Or maybe you are just fine with the status quo and are happy to get fleeced...either way, very weak, IMO.
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@best-groove. I can sort of understand your frustration. However, how did the cartridge sound when it came back to you, was it as good as when original? If so, I would think that this would override the issue with AJ doing his thing. When you say a simple check...what did AJ actually do...besides mark up your cartridge?
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