I like didgeridoo because with it we learn how there is a cosmic voice who spoke through the human voice and a human voice speak also with the cosmic voice ...
The "primitive" didgeridoo do it already in a way even the "sophisticated" sarangi could not do so evidently ...(video in the post above) Some being deaf can claim there is no mystey in the didgeridoo voicing, they are deaf in a way that even deaf people are not ......
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Your teacher is right... In mystical experience or in samadhi experience the spirit decide not the ego , nevermind his work quality and quantity ultimetaly ... But here in this thread i dont spoke about the high levels of spiritual experience, i spoke about the way to meditate music mysteries, numbers mysteries. poetic mysteries , mammals morphology mystery , plant morphology mystery , any Natural science mystery as observing water properties etc ... Here we must ask for our sense to be initiated in Nature or in mind over the ego and his habits ... And here a truely spiritual perception change us ...At least we learn how to forgot the ego for a moment ... But no one achieve the highest spiritual heights because he, his ego , decide ...We are guided and not alone ...We are all ONE ... Anyway we are all already enlightened but we dont know yet...We need some help ... And those who love anyway are the helpers... And those who dont love are the best teachers ... Love your enemy say the Christ... But here more modestly we spoke about sound mysteries ...Nature seen before the ego birth ...Numbers thought out of any logic ... Mammals seen for the first time... Plant seen where they are : in time flow...
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The world dont lack enigmas... But enigmas always had an answers even if we dont know it... But some questions, as said Alexander Grothendieck ( "Nothing important can be proved") are mysteries which ask for our being itself and cannot be investigated without a transformation of the one who ask the question first ... Such are mysteries, which we cannot and must not confuse with enigmas ... Consciousness is a mystery not a mere enigma... Who was the man with the iron mask in history was an enigma that can be or could not be solved... But this question has an answer independant of the investigator ... As most scientific questions...But not all scientific questions are enigmas waiting to be solved ... Some are mystery waiting for us to be transformed first ... A mystery cannot be solved in the same way as a mere enigma ... A mystery ask for an initiation and a transformation from the inquirer ... In mathematics as in religions, as in science, there is enigmas, but there is also mysteries ... Dont confuse and dont conflate them ... All the work of Blaise Pascal turn around the relation between question of reason and question of faith, between intuition and between logic...."Esprit de finesse et esprit de géométrie" ... An enigma has a ready made answer waiting for us in history, in mathematics or in Nature ... A mystery has only for answer our own being before and after... "A felt change in consciousness" as said Owen Barfield speaking of the language and the mystery of words which used in certain way modify the consciousness level ... There is enigmas in linguistic , many; but the mystery goes way deeper than all the enigmas and questions we can asked .... Studying linguistic was for me as discovering mathematics, a stupendous mystery and a transformation of my being ... |
Going back to Dylan at the beginning of his career, i think that he captured the spirit of all one generation and he let the "spirit of these times" spoke trough him for them .... He forgot his "ego" and spontaneously produced the poetry emblematic of this era ...Perhaps more clearly than any one else...His mind-body-soul-spirit were one , and his ego not behind his gesture writing ...Like a master of Tai-chi, or any great poet or like an animal able to react in a more efficient way to any agression than human distracted by their "ego" hubris and fears... Now what is lacking in the Kleist story about the "sin" associated with the "ego" knowledge of itself and the desynchonization of man and the cosmos, is the fact that we can each hour go back to the Eden garden again , and participating anew to the source , if we learn how to suspend and forgive our "ego" sin ...Every mystics say so ... Nature, music, and mathematics, meditation and prayers taught us that they are the same act manifesting the ONE ... |
On the Marionette Theatre
by Heinrich von Kleist
Translated by Idris Parry
One evening in the winter of 1801 I met an old friend in a public park. He had recently been appointed principal dancer at the local theatre and was enjoying immense popularity with the audiences. I told him I had been surprised to see him more than once at the marionette theatre which had been put up in the market-place to entertain the public with dramatic burlesques interspersed with song and dance. He assured me that the mute gestures of these puppets gave him much satisfaction and told me bluntly that any dancer who wished to perfect his art could learn a lot from them. From the way he said this I could see it wasn't something which had just come into his mind, so I sat down to question him more closely about his reasons for this remarkable assertion. He asked me if I hadn't in fact found some of the dance movements of the puppets (and particularly of the smaller ones) very graceful. This I couldn't deny. A group of four peasants dancing the rondo in quick time couldn't have been painted more delicately by Teniers. I inquired about the mechanism of these figures. I wanted to know how it is possible, without having a maze of strings attached to one's fingers, to move the separate limbs and extremities in the rhythm of the dance. His answer was that I must not imagine each limb as being individually positioned and moved by the operator in the various phases of the dance. Each movement, he told me, has its centre of gravity; it is enough to control this within the puppet. The limbs, which are only pendulums, then follow mechanically of their own accord, without further help. He added that this movement is very simple. When the centre of gravity is moved in a straight line, the limbs describe curves. Often shaken in a purely haphazard way, the puppet falls into a kind of rhythmic movement which resembles dance. This observation seemed to me to throw some light at last on the enjoyment he said he got from the marionette theatre, but I was far from guessing the inferences he would draw from it later. I asked him if he thought the operator who controls these puppets should himself be a dancer or at least have some idea of beauty in the dance. He replied that if a job is technically easy it doesn't follow that it can be done entirely without sensitivity. The line the centre of gravity has to follow is indeed very simple, and in most cases, he believed, straight. When it is curved, the law of its curvature seems to be at the least of the first and at the most of the second order. Even in the latter case the line is only elliptical, a form of movement natural to the human body because of the joints, so this hardly demands any great skill from the operator. But, seen from another point of view, this line could be something very mysterious. It is nothing other than the path taken by the soul of the dancer. He doubted if this could be found unless the operator can transpose himself into the centre of gravity of the marionette. In other words, the operator dances. I said the operator's part in the business had been represented to me as something which can be done entirely without feeling - rather like turning the handle of a barrel-organ. "Not at all", he said. "In fact, there's a subtle relationship between the movements of his fingers and the movements of the puppets attached to them, something like the relationship between numbers and their logarithms or between asymptote and hyperbola." Yet he did believe this last trace of human volition could be removed from the marionettes and their dance transferred entirely to the realm of mechanical forces, even produced, as I had suggested, by turning a handle. I told him I was astonished at the attention he was paying to this vulgar species of an art form. It wasn't just that he thought it capable of loftier development; he seemed to be working to this end himself. He smiled. He said he was confident that, if he could get a craftsman to construct a marionette to the specifications he had in mind, he could perform a dance with it which neither he nor any other skilled dancer of his time, not even Madame Vestris herself, could equal. "Have you heard", he asked, as I looked down in silence, "of those artificial legs made by English craftsmen for people who have been unfortunate enough to lose their own limbs?" I said I hadn't. I had never seen anything of this kind. "I'm sorry to hear that", he said, "because when I tell you these people dance with them, I'm almost afraid you won't believe me. What am I saying... dance? The range of their movements is in fact limited, but those they can perform they execute with a certainty and ease and grace which must astound the thoughtful observer." I said with a laugh that of course he had now found his man. The craftsman who could make such remarkable limbs could surely build a complete marionette for him, to his specifications. "And what", I asked, as he was looking down in some perplexity, "are the requirements you think of presenting to the ingenuity of this man?" "Nothing that isn't to be found in these puppets we see here," he replied: "proportion, flexibility, lightness .... but all to a higher degree. And especially a more natural arrangement of the centres of gravity." "And what is the advantage your puppets would have over living dancers?" "The advantage? First of all a negative one, my friend: it would never be guilty of affectation. For affectation is seen, as you know, when the soul, or moving force, appears at some point other than the centre of gravity of the movement. Because the operator controls with his wire or thread only this centre, the attached limbs are just what they should be.� lifeless, pure pendulums, governed only by the law of gravity. This is an excellent quality. You'll look for it in vain in most of our dancers." "Just look at that girl who dances Daphne", he went on. "Pursued by Apollo, she turns to look at him. At this moment her soul appears to be in the small of her back. As she bends, she look as if she's going to break, like a naiad after the school of Bernini. Or take that young fellow who dances Paris when he's standing among the three goddesses and offering the apple to Venus. His soul is in fact located (and it's a frightful thing to see) in his elbow." " Misconceptions like this are unavoidable," he said, " now that we've eaten of the tree of knowledge. But Paradise is locked and bolted, and the cherubim stands behind us. We have to go on and make the journey round the world to see if it is perhaps open somewhere at the back." This made me laugh. Certainly, I thought, the human spirit can't be in error when it is non-existent. I could see that he had more to say, so I begged him to go on. "In addition", he said, "these puppets have the advantage of being for all practical purposes weightless. They are not afflicted with the inertia of matter, the property most resistant to dance. The force which raises them into the air is greater than the one which draws them to the ground. What would our good Miss G. give to be sixty pounds lighter or to have a weight of this size as a counterbalance when she is performing her entrechats and pirouettes? Puppets need the ground only to glance against lightly, like elves, and through this momentary check to renew the swing of their limbs. We humans must have it to rest on, to recover from the effort of the dance. This moment of rest is clearly no part of the dance. The best we can do is make it as inconspicuous as possible..." My reply was that, no matter how cleverly he might present his paradoxes, he would never make me believe a mechanical puppet can be more graceful than a living human body. He countered this by saying that, where grace is concerned, it is impossible for man to come anywhere near a puppet. Only a god can equal inanimate matter in this respect. This is the point where the two ends of the circular world meet. I was absolutely astonished. I didn't know what to say to such extraordinary assertions. It seemed, he said, as he took a pinch of snuff, that I hadn't read the third chapter of the book of Genesis with sufficient attention. If a man wasn't familiar with that initial period of all human development, it would be difficult to have a fruitful discussion with him about later developments and even more difficult to talk about the ultimate situation. I told him I was well aware how consciousness can disturb natural grace. A young acquaintance of mine had as it were lost his innocence before my very eyes, and all because of a chance remark. He had never found his way back to that Paradise of innocence, in spite of all conceivable efforts. "But what inferences", I added, "can you draw from that?" He asked me what incident I had in mind. "About three years ago", I said, "I was at the baths with a young man who was then remarkably graceful. He was about fifteen, and only faintly could one see the first traces of vanity, a product of the favours shown him by women. It happened that we had recently seen in Paris the figure of the boy pulling a thorn out of his foot. The cast of the statue is well known; you see it in most German collections. My friend looked into a tall mirror just as he was lifting his foot to a stool to dry it, and he was reminded of the statue. He smiled and told me of his discovery. As a matter of fact, I'd noticed it too, at the same moment, but... I don't know if it was to test the quality of his apparent grace or to provide a salutary counter to his vanity... I laughed and said he must be imagining things. He blushed. He lifted his foot a second time, to show me, but the effort was a failure, as anybody could have foreseen. He tried it again a third time, a fourth time, he must have lifted his foot ten times, but it was in vain. He was quite unable to reproduce the same movement. What am I saying? The movements he made were so comical that I was hard put to it not to laugh. From that day, from that very moment, an extraordinary change came over this boy. He began to spend whole days before the mirror. His attractions slipped away from him, one after the other. An invisible and incomprehensible power seemed to settle like a steel net over the free play of his gestures. A year later nothing remained of the lovely grace which had given pleasure to all who looked at him. I can tell you of a man, still alive, who was a witness to this strange and unfortunate event. He can confirm it, word for word, just as I've described it." "In this connection", said my friend warmly, "I must tell you another story. You'll easily see how it fits in here. When I was on my way to Russia, I spent some time on the estate of a Baltic nobleman whose sons had a passion for fencing. The elder, in particular, who had just come down from the university, thought he was a bit of an expert. One morning, when I was in his room, he offered me a rapier. I accepted his challenge but, as it turned out, I had the better of him. It made him angry, and this increased his confusion. Nearly every thrust I made found its mark. At last his rapier flew into the corner of the room. As he picked it up he said, half in anger and half in jest, that he had met his master but that there is a master for everyone and everything - and now he proposed to lead me to mine. The brothers laughed loudly at this and shouted: "Come on, down to the shed!" They took me by the hand and led me outside to make the acquaintance of a bear which their father was rearing on the farm. "I was astounded to see the bear standing upright on his hind legs, his back against the post to which he was chained, his right paw raised ready for battle. He looked me straight in the eye. This was his fighting posture. I wasn't sure if I was dreaming, seeing such an opponent. They urged me to attack. "See if you can hit him!" they shouted. As I had now recovered somewhat from my astonishment I fell on him with my rapier. The bear made a slight movement with his paw and parried my thrust. I feinted, to deceive him. The bear did not move. I attacked again, this time with all the skill I could muster. I know I would certainly have thrust my way through to a human breast, but the bear made a slight movement with his paw and parried my thrust. By now I was almost in the same state as the elder brother had been: the bear's utter seriousness robbed me of my composure. Thrusts and feints followed thick and fast, the sweat poured off me, but in vain. It wasn't merely that he parried my thrusts like the finest fencer in the world; when I feinted to deceive him he made no move at all. No human fencer could equal his perception in this respect. He stood upright, his paw raised ready for battle, his eye fixed on mine as if he could read my soul there, and when my thrusts were not meant seriously he did not move. Do you believe this story?" "Absolutely", I said with joyful approval. "I'd believe it from a stranger, it's so probable. Why shouldn't I believe it from you?" "Now, my excellent friend," said my companion, "you are in possession of all you need to follow my argument. We see that in the organic world, as thought grows dimmer and weaker, grace emerges more brilliantly and decisively. But just as a section drawn through two lines suddenly reappears on the other side after passing through infinity, or as the image in a concave mirror turns up again right in front of us after dwindling into the distance, so grace itself returns when knowledge has as it were gone through an infinity. Grace appears most purely in that human form which either has no consciousness or an infinite consciousness. That is, in the puppet or in the god." "Does that mean", I said in some bewilderment, "that we must eat again of the tree of knowledge in order to return to the state of innocence?" "Of course", he said, "but that's the final chapter in the history of the world." |
Now take a gentle breath and listen to what this awaked gentleman in his last interview, before he died just before 9/11, spoke about and think about the way what he says about time and concsciousness accelerating is becoming truer by the minute nowadays ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdEKhIk-8Gg
If sound is a mystery , time is also one...And one encounter the other in speech (communication as the highest evolutive rate of change ) ...
Now if you think that this Mckenna is in a delirium about his idea of a relation between time and the Chinese most important old book , think again... Read this book here the correspondance between Carl Gustav Jung the father of depth psychology and Wolfgang Pauli one of the father with Bohr and Heisemberg of the new quantum physics , discussing about time and synchonicities and another Keplerian and Newtonian deep interest : astrology ... "Atom and Archetypes" book , the Jung/Pauli letters from 1932 to 1958 |
« Peace is a state of consciousness which seeds in us gave the fruits waiting for us out of history as the words of prose are already now the seeds of a higher meaning and higher consciousness in what we call poetry »-- Anonymus audiogon poster 😎 «The seeds value is more than the fruit»-- Anonymus gardener
«Words are seeds and the song is the fruit»-- Anonymus Dylan fan «Children days of amazement dont make history» -- Anonymus psychologist |
Anyone who had written poetry know this state : it is going from one level of consciouness to another ... «Art is nature speed up and God slowed down » Malcom de Chazal Our expression and our words never coincide, which is why the animals don’t understand us. Animals awaken, first facially, then bodily. Men’s bodies wake before their faces do. The animal sleeps within its body, man sleeps with his body in his mind. Share this Quote Malcolm de Chazal
Read more at https://www.brainyquote.com/authors/malcolm-de-chazal-quotes |
In some case yes for sure...But for those with no consciousness about themselves , it is way easier to negate even external manifestation and even blocking them at the source ... Because of the respect at the cosmic scale for free will , nobody can be forced or coerced in a state he consider alienating for himself ... This is why sleepwalker walk manipulated by less respecting forces in some cases... See the last 4 years of brainwashing ...
We can be manipulated to go down , but not to go higher , we must decide it ...
« Myself sorry, but if I am sometimes a robot it is by free choice »--Groucho Marx🤓 |
Any creator working with himself know very well that his works to do well must increase his consciousness level from day to day consciousness to another level b-c-d- etc to create something "inspired" not necessarily by an alien entity but by himself from another higher consciousness vantage point ... Even mathematicians know this as any painter or any poet or musicians composer or not .... No need to appeal to channelling here even if it exist ...Greatest creations are not so much usually channelling, as instead elevated consciousness level and communication or merging with the part of ourself more higher called the " higher self" by Jung or yes for sure in some case speaking in sleep or in lucid dream with the "daimon" which is another guiding entity so named by Jung also as it was by Plato ... Some music and meditation in silence practices are precisely complementary ways to forgot the day to day self to embrass our higher self ... Then only sleepwalking people can think that there is no mysteries in sound experience...Why music can be so powerful in healing technic for medecine ? Placebo effect yes for sure , any wise doctor must use it , but more than that contacting the healer by excellence : the higher self ... Ask Edgar Cayce did in America not long ago ...A demonstrated non fraudulent health worker for free with 15,000 thousand medical advices from a non educated person as was Cayce ...
Now try to debunk this miraculous healer from Germany after the second world war , i wish you good luck 😊: Bruno Groning is a VERIFIED case of miraculous healing on thousand of case for NO MONEY ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeJ-zHn-B7U
Miracles and mysteries are everywhere and facts are facts yes , but any fact cover a depeer layers in it we must also look at into ... And why not debunking this yogi of fire, i wish you good luck too 😊 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXfyrWRbmss&t=8s
Even simple water is a complete mysteries even now...Only ignorant materialist sleepwalker dont know that because they are hipnotized by some technology success but way less by real science probing mysteries at the frontiers of the unknown .. : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSbg3cuZNRQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8VyUsVOic0
Wisdom is way more than just knowledge, knowledge is way more than just science, and science is way more than just technology ... Only ignorance confuse and conflate these 4 concepts... I just present some facts about fire and water miracles or mysteries , what about air and earth miracles or mysteries now ? 😊
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It is very simple. materialism , especially today is becoming a religion especially after this worldview has been ontologically discarded , it maintain his grip on mind as a technological cult ...Today called transhumanism ... And most people had no idea of what is science , think about doctors trained by Rockfeller education seized and controlled after the Flexner report ...Some even think that science is a consensus, think about the way some scientific communicator advocated for unscientific measures in the last 4 years because of a "corporate designed consensus" ... Add to that by education most people have no idea what is a spiritual life , they dont think that our perception doing science observation can be transformed in "exact imaginative perception" (Goethe words as the perception of the dynamic of forms in projective geometry for example or the understanding of poetry and of language itself ); they dont know that what we perceive is already conditioned by our metaphysical concepts , be it materialism or creative one, then they reduce any wholeness and depth to his usable apparent parts...And they sell them as solutions... They were perfect technological workers for corporate powers who anyway today controls all the main aspects of life ... This was such that the word "philosopher of nature" were replaced by the word "scientist" , the description of a free thinker aimed at the understanding of the wholeness was replaced by the name of a mind now conditioned by details, specialization and the parts for which he will be paid to study ...The word "nature" was banished as are banished today the word "man" and "woman " in their biological and spiritual meanings ... All this begin OFFICIALLY in 1833 at a reunion of the British society for the advancement of science, when Charles Babbage the creator of the first computer and a geologist too decided with Charles Lyell the geologist and others to replace the old fashion word "philosopher of nature" by the new word "scientist"... Replacing then the free spirit individual searching for knowledge and truth by a specialized paid workers compelled to serve for the British corporations dominating the world... Think about the doctors slave status now as demonstrated in the last three years ? Goethe predicted it two years before in 1831 with the publication of his completed masterpiece, Faust, , describing among other trends all this HUBRIS and demonic totalitarism of the paper money and the greed behind all that in ONE play...Faust from " free philosopher of nature " became, guided and possessed by Mephisto, a paid worker "scientist" for the Kings and even solve as economist their money problem creating it with debt based paper money ...( a swiss economist, Binswanger , even wrote a book about the genius of Goethe here) We live today the concluding phase...the Frankenstein phase described long ago by a woman with great intuition...The big corporations at this moment worked for a hybridation of living cell and A.I. agency ... And they work no more for the replacement of the "philosopher of Nature " by a slave "scientist" paid worker educated by them , but for a replacement of useless "stupid" humans by machines...All science fiction books are like chivalry novels at the times of Cervantes mocking them with his Quixotte, outdated by the actual historical reality because " mostly realized" or in the course of realization ... Art is not only mere leisure, art is rooted intuition, inspiration and imagination..Each artist is way more than a "scientist" he is a seer and always as Aristotle , Leonardo Da Vinci, Michael-Angelo, Archimedes , Goethe , Vernadsky in Russia and Charles Sanders Peirce in US and many others were, "a free philosopher of Nature" too a name where art and science conjugated together ...Not only a mere "scientist" as a specialized unfree paid workers for big corporations directly or indirectly ...
«Bach is part of nature because the growing of a tree from a seed is a melodic line with a counterpoint »-- Anonymus musician and gardener reading the plant morphology of Goethe
Then as you can see the way some people reacted against spirit or any non materialist perspective is not a mystery but a simple historical enigma solved easily if we can retrace the roots of the programmation of minds in history itself ... This is not complotism, this is history meanings...Convergence of interest by growing corporations and narrowing of the mind coming with hubris for power and greed explain almost all ...It is different today because there is no more democracy only an oligarchy but it is not the place to discuss it ..😊 |
The vibration suppose a medium, and a perceiving subject in front of a vibrating sound source... The fact that mankind used sound in a naturally tuned or even designed cavern or megalithic temple or more recently In Mysteries greek temples as Eleusis, to modify his own perceiving body by timing our metabolism rythms with the resonant cavern or temple indicate a high level of consciousness associated with sound and music "meanings" ... These men who listened the echo of their voices or of instrument they were not in a leisure moment of distraction after work... They were in contemplative working of the mind going from one level to the other by means of resonance ... All the cells of the body communicate by not only acoustic vibrations but also electro-magnetic onne from the microtubules to the brain and to the members from low hertz band to mega and giga Hertz...
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Now ask this musician and to the composer if there is no music and no mysteries in protein chemistry : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqjsFTjLNyE&list=PLnQJF3Qi_4_CGFyisehOpLvbpDhdIe_ld&index=202
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Ask this man if there is no mysteries in music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNrcb-9Gi8c&list=PLnQJF3Qi_4_CGFyisehOpLvbpDhdIe_ld&index=204
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Sound is a mystery and if it was not one we will be killed by boredom for eternity ... Only bored boring man can think that sound is not a mystery, or that there is no mysteries... Even deaf man listen and blind man see the mysteries...
I read this story very young first in the great book of Eric temple Bell about the great mathematicians...It is an anecdote : «The following anecdote is found in and all the younger part of her Court. But some of the older courtiers suggested
The reader of this anecdote must know that Euler , one of the greatest mathematicians who ever lived , was not a fool and did not seriouly proposed his simple algebra as a logical proof of the existance of God for sure... But Euler was a deep believer in God and all his knowledge indicated the truthfullness of his faith in the source of all knowledge ,then for Euler , any mathematical simple fact was an EVIDENCE of God not a proof , as the trace of an animals dont proves logically his existence but yet suggest it strongly ( the prime numbers distribution by the way must be interpreted as an absolute fact and is as such by a mathematician as Alain Connes for example and many others ) ...I am sure that Euler enjoyed to close the mouth of a professional doubter or of a religious and zealot atheist... Mysteries are even in the simplest formula as PI or the number E , but not all people are ready and prepared to perceive them ...Most lazy people prefered to negate and live in boredom and in this faith which consist to negate all faiths as pure deceptions ...
From The So-Called Euler-Diderot Incident |
Well said and very interesting! Thanks ...
The best book ever i know about poetry is "poetic diction" by Owen Barfield... It is not a book about verses it is about knowledge and language ... Very deep .. Short book which cost peanuts ... Astoundingly clear book ...It beat anything i have ever read about poetry in a very pragmatic british way and with the same intuition who inspired his friends : C.S. Lewis and Tolkien admired Barfield for his intelligence and originality ... You must buy it ... It is not our knowing who got in the way so much as a form of knowing which is deceptive because it is not a well integrated part of our true self and never had been in our european civilization ... What we learn without experiencing it inside us is only a useful weight we put on our back to succeed in society ... It is not craftmanship nor creative experience... It is only a memorized imposed external knowledge ( a mapping ) ... To understand acoustics we must experiment with it , only reading formula is not enough ...It is not enough to read only sheet music without never listening or playing ... All that is easy to resume : there is the maps and the mapping activity , the gluing of parts, on one part of the brain and the living territory in which our other brain feel the wholeness as reality , the real territory which cannot be a map nor even be mapped ... ( all mapping implied a trade-off and a big lost ) The greatest books about that ever written are by Iain McGilchrist ...To read absolutely ...You can see interview of him on Youtube ... Then the knowledge who interrupt our participation to the Nature and to the Source is a memorized set of maps and the mapping activity , instead of the participating conscious gazing into the whole through the parts and into the parts from the whole , with the realization that parts and whole dont add externally but merge in one perception ... the books of Goethe in science analyzed by Bortoft are all about that ... The key is looking for a better balance between the part of ourself who is hypnotized by details in a day to day sleepwalking life and the part of ourself which is dwelling in the whole as children do or great awaken artists or scientists ... |
Myself i dont want to believe what CANNOT be experienced... But what can be experienced can be experienced at many levels in a different way ... For example BEFORE perceiving something clearly we must had a concept... The concept can be intuitively grasped if it is not perceived with the corresponding objects ... The mysteries in Nature, in the cosmos or in the infinite cannot all be perceived , but we can believe what we perceive in "thinking" in developing our intuition our imagination and our inspiration ...And someday we perceive it to some degree ...All mathematics is about that too ... Then between the pure mystic living in union with the One or the source and the materialist pushing a stone and claiming that only that is a real perception , there is many levels of understanding in the physical and supraphysical levels of "vision" ... Plato asked for the study of geometry why ? Because the human animal who think that only stones are real not the ideas or the Gods could only be educated in his thinking perception by geometry ... Today it is the same thing, if we dont meditate about music, poetry, art, God, mathematics and truth , what are we ? If we are not at least truly loving our neighbour as ourself, then we are really animals in human forms ...The fact that some animals own a ephone or a computer dont change their existantial status ...
Technical mastery and hubris is only a low state of being even if it seems superior to animals... It is an illusion ...
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We cannot induce or share experience with words for sure...Except in some degree with poetry... But with prose we can only merely suggest a book for example which can describe how to put together the best conditions to experience a perception for ourself , but no book will replace a perception done consciously in the right conditions and in the right way ... I suggest here the physicist Henri Bortoft : https://www.amazon.ca/Taking-Appearance-Seriously-Dynamic-European- And if someone couple it with the book of Wolgang Schad on morphology Of mammals : "man and mammals" ...Then you will fall from your chair realizing you had never seen anything save on a pure surface with no depth in all your life ...As i did myself...😁😊 I recommend it to mijostyn and everybody who want to be astounded by Nature and our own ignorance, not the simple ignorance of facts which can easily be compensated by information , but the deeper ignorance about the way we see and look in a sleepwalker way ...
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Sound if it is not noise but rythms and melody and harmonies can also be related to speech movements and body movements... The mystery of sounds is related to the timing of voices and body gestures, because with or without instruments , humans produce sounds and time their body movement to the sounds... Narrow minds will not see the mystery because they dont relate the movement of music and body to the inner heart and to the cosmic heart as someone who would look at the the pointing finger instead of looking at the moon and will mock those who look at the moon ignoring the finger after the first pointing movement ... The concept of meaning is a process never a singular occurence ...This concept so mysterious occupied the mind of Charles Sanders Peirce the creator of semiotics for all his life ... The concept of "meaning" stay as much mysterious today than in the past ... Narrow mind as the late B.F. Skinner want to explain it only with the concept of a set of complex conditioning inherited from Pavlov ... But "meanings" implicate consciousness and freedom and cannot be thought about without a thinking free consciousness able to create his own thinking content by his own free will ...The reason is that by freely creating his thoughts content with his free will man create an internal realm out of the inner set of inherited conditionings and out of the external set of conditionings ...This is why meaning and freedom are related ...This is why those who want to impose totalitarian control want to destroy meanings and free speech with for one ideal : transhumanist A.I. the next religion... Tai chi dances
Dancing buddhist monks :
Gurdjieff Dance https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hF6Hlbu-1FI
Steiner Eurythmy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah-GckVWjjc
Music exercise by Peter deunov
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Probably... In my times there was not so much English radio stations in Quebec .. I remember the songs i listened too but half the times not the artist name ... Otis Redding what a so big hit , he was playing all days in this summer... I remember the words too because they are simple english and i lived the same situation alone on the dock facing St Lawrence river and thinking ... I listened Smokey Robinson but without knowing him...His silky voice is difficult to forget ... |
Wow you remind me of something here i listened too when i had 15 years old on my small battery radio ...😊 I had forgot ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNS6D4hSQdA
With Otis Redding too in the same years... It was my favorite soul song ... |
My words were not aimed at you but at mijostyn... You dont kill any "hope" for the infinite... Mijostyn assigned to himself here this task...It is not the first time he confuse his materialist gospel as pure truth ... He never debate by the way, if he spark debate , he has no arguments for a philosophical debate...
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Life is too serious right now to spark debate for the pleasure to spark a debate... I only said what i think and i never spoke to spark a debate... And i dont enter threads to extinguish some positive light because i cannot support the idea that others can make sense of it and i could not ... Sometimes i lack humor, i am too serious and i had little patience for short sight people...I am enthusiastic and never take lightly people who kill enthusiasm in the students... That explain my reactive posts .. 😊 |
Hildegard of Bingen and Teresa of Avila two of the greatest mystic in European history were so grounded and pragmatic character as much as knowleageable that kings and men of knowledge consulted these two women who organize the practical life of convents on all aspects of life and was anything save deluded dreamers... Read a book about them Mijostyn ... Hildegard was a scientist and a doctor and a musical genius self taught ... I dont know mystic who are not grounded in concrete reality ... But i know accountant philistine who conflate their book with reality ...😊
One of the greatest mystic who is also one of the greatest scientist of his time is Emmanual Swedenborg , who discovered the Cerebral cortex, and he even imagine fractals before Mandelbrot ...He advised the Swedish Queen on all scientific matter , do you think he was deluded ? He was called because of his inventions , the Leonardo Da Vinci of the North... Dr. Suzuki call him the Buddha of the North ... And what about Raimon Lull the creator of Cybernetic said Norbert Wiener speaking about the creation by Lull of the first combinatoric logic with retroactive input in history in the twelveth century ... He was one of the greatest poet and mystic to ever lived and a mind so deep that all the islam word listened to him ...he want to created a crusade of thinking not of swords ... Only an ignorant can confuse mysticism with unrealistic immature minds ... And only ignorance can confuse spiritual experience with superstition ...
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Now Coltrane is too mystical or non sensical in clear ...😁 ( Sun Ra must be a complete failure for you ) He threw the "net" away ... For sure an accountant need "a net" to live a life ...
Reality is reality, said the accountant... Mysticism is a word empty of content in my book say the accountant ... What a life you live ....No dreams except in the bed... No ectasy save reading your credit line ... Poetry means nothing ... atom exist and God is a myth... All we need is EQ of our life as we EQ our gear ...The life must resemble an average Gauss curve or a Harman curve , nothing must exceed the limit ...😁 I never encountered someone as you mijostyn...They will not even came to see me as students ...They dont read...Save for killing time ...
I am sorry but i am not used to speak to old boring man who will learn nothing more ...I miss the students ...This is why i spoke too much ...😁
What is at odds is mediocrity and genius ...Not mysticism and reality ...Read a book... I gave plenty of recommendation that completely contradict your saying ...
It is incredible... The OP recommended a marvellous deep video and you came spilling your opinion as truth , claiming all this is non sensical ...Think about that ... And you know NOTHING about any of the thinkers i spoke about but instead of asking questions , you repeated your motto as an accountant his columns prayers...
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Does plants sing or speaks to insects and other plants and to some deaf humans ?
«Plants have long been considered to be unchanging, passive, and static organisms, Is There a Role for Sound in Plants? https://iris.unimore.it/retrieve/2944eb3c-4606-4eb8-9400-89eabd9c5f1b/plants-11-02391.pdf |
I could not have say it better .. Thanks deep_333 |
By the way you are certainly a genius because you are able to ascribe each mysteries his place: the trash bin or some awake day dreaming leisure time.. For you no mysteries at all in acoustic or about plant or God... All is settled by your marvellous operating mind .. You know you that mysteries are in a corner and reality in the other corner.. Dumdfounding genius you are ...Over all the stupid too imagimative writers and scientists i spoke about, none of them would have act as simplistic as you though ... ... Are you conscious of what you just wrote ? 😊 No mysteries in Natural science, in acoustics or about god...Plant are DNA evolutive machine , and Bach is only a superstitious man with talent to entertain... No mysteries in the Art of the fugue meanings ... No mysteries in history or in mathematics...
A mystery can be at least two different aspects of a thing AT THE SAME TIME : An unexplained enigma for the time being but even when explained and explaining as the DNA code discovery explained some genetical history enigmas, ANY problems created also a new hard to solve problem at the same time it give a solution to some and then it create a new portal in the mystery of life , a sacred new deep meditation and not a mere technological problem for big pharma to exploit ... On one side thinking mind meditating mysteries and solving problems without never drying up the well of thinking and on the other side industries exploiting them for profit , those one had no time for mysteries trust me ...
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You put in my mouth something i never said to be able after that have a way to dismiss my points...or worst you dont understand anything... You are not fair here... I never said that music is ONLY a mystical experience... Read my post above: between the mystical experience and the casual observation of a plant or of your feet crushing it , there exist MANY LAYERS OF THE THINKING PROCESS ABOVE your feet ...You negate them all to reduce poetry to a trivial matter and music to only something emotional and which can be written , period.... Read Owen Barfield book "poetic diction" : poetry is a felt change in consciousness" ... why a consciousness change by reading an assembly of words why ? And read his short book about science : "saving the appearances "... You reason like an accountant classifying income entries and exits in an account book... Poetry and mysticism that’s that, pure words assembly nothing else; pure debit and expanse at a cost of loosing time; and science that’s that, objective truth , a solid credit in the bank , the rest is just leisure time or at worst that mystical nonsense... You are like these persons without imagination in a Dickens novel ...Here there is something, and here there is nothing save a mystery for poor too imaginative mind ..Your thinking is with two drawers; is it not a bit limited? Do you think Georg Cantor and Alexander Grothendick and Goethe had no idea about science ? Explain to me why Charles Sanders Peirce was in all his life ferociously attacking nominalism ? it is because people like you separated the mind and the things in two uncommunicable Cartesian entities and taught others how to be out of touch with realities because it is very useful to not raise people above their payroll... We live an era where being out of touch push us toward annihilation by the fear of thinking ... And i am not a mystic by the way... In your mouth anyway it is an insult ... Then spare me insults as a way to dismiss my posts without answering any points ...😁There is many layers of the thinking process ; then learn something , between observing your feet and living a mystical experience of consciousness there exist MANY levels of consciousness ... Have you ever read a book ?
A book is precisely something speaking to each of us on many levels and not only two : your feet and the mystic useless poetry ...All book are not instruction manual about EQ or about our feet ...😊
It is not too late to learn , read one ... Try Owen Barfield very short books ... Or if you like too much your feet and dislike poetry try a book on mammal morphology to train your perceptive imagination ...
Wolfgang Schad : man and mammals ... you will stumble from your chair reading this one learning how to go from one level of thinking to another one ...One of the great book i ever read... 😊
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You would be right if between a mystical experience and a perception of a plant growing seen from a scientific viewpoint there would have been no middle ground perspective nor any levels... I illustrated this opinion of mine by quoting Goethe book about plant morphology and Cantor creating the most universal theory of mathematics borrowing the method of an ancient mystic of the 6 th century Dyonisos the Areopagite and borrowing the intuition of the absolute infinite from another mystic, Nicolas de Cues ...... This two example: Goethe scientific method of observation and the phenomonology of perception as analysed by the physicist Henri Bortoft , and on the other side the work on the foundation of Mathematics by Georg Cantor demonstrate my point : Between pure mystical experience and between raw perception of a plant , there is many levels of the prepared mind ...( you can add the reflexions on creativity and spirituality in mathematics with the 3 thousand published pages of Alexander Grothendieck ) Opinion of people here matter less than facts ... And fact demonstrate that the thinking faculty operates on many layers all intricated, nevermind if we are conscious of it or not ... For those ignorant of this , study Carl Gustav Jung the best known psychologist of the century,after Freud ...
Then there is no reason to stop because some need to study or do not remember how to think ... geometry, number theory and the idea of God or The Absolute are not matter of opinion but matter of thinking ...A plant or mammal morphological description is a fact not an opinion ... In the opposite then my quotes can be useful for ONE PERSON here and this is enough for me ... All are not blind , deaf, and completely dismissive of all poets, all mathematicians, all philosophers and of all revelations of natural science and acoustics ...Or are almost all materialist and transhumabnists without even knowing that thyey are ? 😊 Then i will go on discussing especially because i think as the OP and i completey endorse his point of view about music ... ... and i will not close this thread myself ...Save if a majority of people ask for it because a minority of narrow mind ask for it because they felt diminished by the necessary operation of thinking ... Why the world goes so wrong? Because people not only dont want to think but they despise those who think... 😁😊😁😊😁😊
Thanks for your kindness with my verbosity....
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In written speech we can say anything and contradict ourself and negate what has been said ... We can begin to wrote again forgetting what we just corrected ...We are free in a way we are not in musical playing expression and in oral speech ... Nobody can lie in musical immediate playing expression because nothing can be retracted as in oral expression before writings was invented ...In music playing as in oral speech we live in time with time through timing ..."Lying" can be detected in oral speech and in music by some asynchronization in the expressing body ... In the written music or speech we live out of time without time ... This is why orality as music playing implicate the whole living body... Written music and written speech do not implicate the whole body they are social institution in a way music playing and oral speech are not ...Writing miss the mystery of time and timing which is the body itself, the body being a rythms of interlocked spirals at all scales from the microtubules to the body arms...... |
«Musical ideas or feelings are not mere sound, and yet are nothing apart from sound; they may be described in emotive language ("sad" and the like) and yet are never adequately so described. Description - a logical interpretant, dependent on collateral observation by which the feelings heard are compared with human emotions conventionally designated - lacks the specificity, complexity, and nuance of the musical ideas described. As Mendelssohn said, "It is not that music is too vague for words; it is too precise for words." That is why the proper or complete interpretant of music is emotional, not logical. But that emotional interpretant is not one’s ordinary feeling, for example, of sadness; it is the same complex of feeling as that embodied in the piece of music heard. » (Short : Peirce theory of signs 2007: 204).
Susanne Langer (1953: 147). "The first principle in musical hearing is not, as many people assume, the ability to distinguish the separate elements in a composition and recognize its devices, but to experience the primary illusion [i.e., the movement of the music through the 'virtual time' constructed by the work] , to feel the consistent movement and recognize at once the commanding form which makes this piece an inviolable whole"
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I will translate the title thread to make it acceptable as a concept for some : The experience of sound impact the body-heart/mind-brain/soul-spirit different levels and layers of experience and meanings ... Calling it "mysticism" and a "mystery" is only short-hand writing for a deeper matter than imagine trivial mind ... But many are so estranged to meaningful experiences varieties they reduce all of them to only one level ... The accountants worker and consumers linear levels of thinking and understanding ... But i dont think that Bach offering his works to God as did Bruckner, Liszt or Hildegard of Bingen , or Ustad ali Akbar Khan or Sharam Nazeri think as American consumers customers or like accountants creating their musical mysteries for initiate mind or mind looking for "truth" certainly not as consumers background music so "wonderful" mijostyn and i agree it could be... ... 😁 As music cannot be really written, mathematics cannot be reduced to writing sums of computations... Mysteries are everywhere if we are able to think instead of repeating common -place opinions inspired by the materialism and nominalism popular in Anglo Saxon world especially ... Read the greatest American philosopher Charles Sanders Peirce ...A polymath genius who investigate what is "meaning" and despise the nominalist habit of the mind around him ...He created a new science singlehandly ...
«We cannot begin with complete doubt» C. S. Peirce
“I hear you say: ‘All that is not /fact/ : it is poetry’. Nonsense! Bad poetry is false, I grant; but nothing is truer than true poetry. And let me tell the scientific men that the artists are much finer and more accurate observers than they are, except of the special minutiae that the scientific man is looking for.”
― “Few persons care to study logic, because everybody conceives himself to be proficient enough in the art of reasoning already. But I observe that this satisfaction is limited to one’s own ratiocination, and does not extend to that of other men.”
― The Fixation of Belief “Notwithstanding all that has been discovered since Newton’s time, his saying that we are little children picking up pretty pebbles on the beach while the whole ocean lies before us unexplored remains substantially as true as ever, and will do so though we shovel up the pebbles by steam shovels and carry them off in carloads.”
― Collected Papers “Are you sure twice two are four? Not at all. A certain percentage of the human race are insane and subject to illusions. It may be you are one of them, and that your idea that twice two is four is a lunatic notion, and your seeming recollection that other people think so, the baseless fabric of a vision.”
― “Some persons fancy that bias and counter-bias are favorable to the extraction of truth–that hot and partisan debate is the way to investigate. This is the theory of our atrocious legal procedure. But Logic puts its heel upon this suggestion. It irrefragably demonstrates that knowledge can only be furthered by the real desire for it, and that the methods of obstinacy, of authority and every mode of trying to reach a foregone conclusion, are absolutely of no value. These things are proved. The reader is at liberty to think so or not as long as the proof is not set forth, or as long as he refrains from examining it. Just so, he can preserve, if he likes, his freedom of opinion in regard to the propositions of geometry; only, in that case, if he takes a fancy to read Euclid, he will do well to skip whatever he finds with A, B, C, etc., for, if he reads attentively that disagreeable matter, the freedom of his opinion about geometry may unhappily be lost forever.”
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Replacing mysteries by the word wonderful will not replace what i mean by "mystery" ... It is neither esthetically beautiful neither simple amazement; it is entering in Nature intimacy and discovering something ... Read the physicist Henri Bortoft books about Goethe method , which is Leonardo Da Vinci Method as well ...I will say more but i lack the space here ...
Mysteries are there not to be explained by words or experiments, they cannot; they are there as something to be perceived as "meanings" and they then transform the observer stance because they cannot be perceived passively by an external observer but ask to be participate ... This method of observation make Goethe able to found the physiology of colors out of the Newtonian corpuscules optics metaphysics.. Read Goethe " there is no theory behind the phenomenon , the phenomenon is the theory"... This dude dare to contradict Newton alone and win his point ...Perhaps you may learn something from him ...His I.Q. is not less than Newton...😁 He is a Natural scientist on par with Darwin, he died with one of the biggest natural specimen collections...He investigate mammals and plant morphology and found a new morphological approach...He is the greatest writer of Germany on par with Shakespeare...And understood as well as William Blake the materialism dead end in which we live today replaced by the new religion : transhumanism ...He understood it so well that it is him with his Faust gave to us the only adjective describing the transhumanist hubris at6 his roots : Faustian ... Accountant philosophy is not my philosophy, in my philosophy there is mysteries... By the way the greatest Romanian philosopher Lucian Blaga which is also the greatest Romanian writer , created a philosophy completely grounded in the concept of Mystery versus simplistic theorizing ...He is very deep, it is a pity there is no translation in english...
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You are right and it is my point to quoting Goethe and mathematicians... I spoke about the spirituality not about religions, and i speak about meanings , not about mystical or materialistic ideologies ... In music i am interested by psychoacoustics and the way sound affect consciousness level of everyone monk or not ... But materialism is an ideological deception as much as religions... Anyway i dont refuse the word mysticism because in any religions the mystics are the only interesting person, they perceive before speaking ... One of the best book i read in my life was an unknown writer Alexis-Preyre, he wrote a book called in " le doute liberateur" or The freeing act of doubt" which explain the analogy of method between scepticism and the apophantic and cataphatic method of the mystics... Mystics doubt in a methodological way it is why they are not loved by Institution... Francesco D'assissi miss to be put on stake by few inches ...Mystics are potential heretics because of their real experiences and they ressemble each other , nevermind the religions .. |
Perhaps you must add to your lexicon a new concept based on consciousness experience , "spirituality", and keep the word "religions" for what it is : a social cultural phenomenon ... Lao Tse is not taoism , Buddha is not buddhism, Jesus is not Christianity , A map is not a territory...Especially highly distorted maps...
Perceiving what phenomenon are really behind mere appearance is not being deluded...It is confusing some appearances with reality that is a sign of delusion ... See out and farthest than you nose instead of repeating common place facts as deep truths ... We cannot perceive a new reality if we had not prepared ourself to perceive it first ..And if the times is not the right time ... It is call a "concept" ... Which concept is not only a mere abstraction but also a concrete new perspective and experience ... John Flamsteed do not perceive "a planet" called Uranus when he observed it long time before Herschel guess why ?
And dont repeat what Bill Gates and Klaus Schwab or some controller of the same ilk put in your brain for the sake of controlling all humans and abolishing freedom and all cultures because humans are all in there supposedly about fanaticism, greed , ignorance and exploitation .. Do you catch your own contradictions ? To help you to understand cooperative communication role in Nature over the gross competitive interpretation of some Darwinist ideology about the fight for the fittest , i will suggest to read an article in the field of artificial intelligence about the way to design ecosystems of intelligence as put it by Karl Friston...Why ? Because Nature work at least as an intelligent cooperative ecological social entity not as a materialistic Victorian blind and deaf killing machine machine ... https://arxiv.org/pdf/2212.01354.pdf Now if you read 3,000 pages book in his resumed version of 700 pages about the rise and fall of societies and the role of cooperation which is more powerful than the survival fight as such, by Pitirim Sorokin, you will have a glimpse of what we spoke about all which escape your narrow window ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitirim_Sorokin
And for music, i dont think you know much , because you seem to think of music as mere pleasant sound for you ... It is not...Music is through sounds but is not sounds pleasant to you ...It is not your hit parade ... I will not go further...Too much space will be needed ...Suffice to say that all music of any kind is an emotional/body/mind/spirit experience ...All music resonate much at some level in yourself, and then the fact that you had never listen to a music that light the upper lantern of your mind "on" does not mean that this level does not exist ... Feeling pleasure in hearing some music is not all there is about music ...Some music is a bit more than just a leisure goal distributed by corporations to make them happy when they go shopping ... Try the "art of the fugue" and think about what this work means ...Try the same after that with an Indian raga.... Then buy traditional Yoruba speaking drums and think about it ...After all that explain to yourself and others what is music and the relation between these three styles of consciousness experience and how they reflect in sound something with is not sound and is called a consciousness perceiving experience of different qualities and states...
«You cannot light a lampost by lighting it with another lantern»--Groucho Marx 🤓 «I dont share my light»--Anonymus lampost |
My ego is way too big to humble himself most of the times ...And only truth humble me, not daily trivial matter as my ignorance ... 😊 I really do not know him ... I dont know much in jazz and in soul and blues etc ... I will listen to him...But singing poetry in english is difficult to understand for me ...I used to read simplistic syntax with no metaphors...Philosophical or scientific english... All thinkers dont write english as the spanish Santayana ...😁 I love Bob Dylan but i miss half of his tropes and allusions ...I read Whitman and Dickinson in bilingual text ... 😁 I wish you a very lucky year ... It is coming , christmas will pass in 28 minutes here ...
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