The last 5 ?????


Sometimes as an Audiophile I come to a place where words no longer express the experience I’m having with my system. In this past year I have needed to sell off parts of my system, the biggest changes were going from two Plinius SA-102 amps bi-amped to a single amp, and replacing my Nordost Valhalla cabling with the far more affordable Kubala-Sosna Emotion cables.

The loss of the amp was clear, less dynamics and less involving. The cable change was something significantly different however. The Kubala-Sosna cables are every cliché we audiophiles use. Blacker, better definition, more space between notes, dynamic, extended… These words fail to express the improvement over my Valhalla cables however, and all I can say is I’m more musically involved. This was a clear improvement to my system, and for less money!!! But words fail to adequately express the improvements.

The second experience came when my Sony SCD-1 receiving all the remaining modifications available through Richard Kern at Audiomod.com I had half the mod’s done four years ago, and received the remaining just last month. The fully modified player is said to better the EMM Meitner/Phillips combination. I can not speak to that in that I have never heard this combination, so my basis is strictly within my experiences listening to other systems.

The fully modified Sony is simply amazing, beyond my limits of expression. I could say it’s more analog than any digital system I’ve heard, and yet it’s well beyond analog. It is simply so much more than the analog most of us can afford. It’s also not at all digital, it has none of the electronic, edgy artifacts of solid state and digital systems. The best way I can explain this system is it’s beyond digital and analog that I’m aware of.

Words like three dimensional, attack, tightness, extended, clear, dynamic, natural, subtle all fall completely inadequate when trying to explain my system today. Words just can not explain the sound.

This leads me to my purpose of this post. The topic actually came up talking to Albert Porter when we were discussing continued improvements we make to systems that are already beyond 95% of anything available. In Albert’s case I suspect he is beyond 99.99% and yet we continue to change our systems and reach DRAMATIC improvements.

How is this possible if the last five or three or one percent is as significant as 50% to 90%? What I mean is when I moved from a $1000 system to a $4000 system the improvements were dramatic. Then I moved to a $9000 then $20,000 and finally to where I am now. Each step was marked improvement over the earlier step and even at $4000 I was far beyond anything 95% of the consumers will ever hear. So what’s actually going on? If $4000 gets me to the last few percent, how can each additional step be doubling or tripling the previous systems musicality or involvement or measurable improvement?

Why do some of us get to a point where we believe a single multi-thousand dollar interconnect brought us 100% closer to the music? Why are there some who still claim cables do not effect sound? Clearly they want good sound, but somehow are not aware of what is possible due to limits in there 95% system.

My answer is either the last couple percent are actually far more significant than the first 95% or we are actually only 25% “there” with a $4000 system. I can not even express how big the changes I have made are. They are well beyond two times, maybe three or four times the significance on the system before these changes. That would mean I was something like 25% or 45% “there” before. Well that is crazy because I have not hear a system I enjoyed more than mine. I’ve heard some that were better in one area or another, but overall… Of course this is a subjective topic, and I understand that, but the point is for my room, my ears, my taste I was already 100%, yet now I’ve bettered it by two or three fold.

All I can think is this is not a 100% issue. This is something more like the open ended Richter scale. On the Richter scale every tenth of a point is doubling the magnitude of an earthquake. The Richter scale is logarithmic, that is an increase of 1 magnitude unit represents a factor of ten times in amplitude. The seismic waves of a magnitude 6 earthquake are 10 times greater in amplitude than those of a magnitude 5 earthquake. However, in terms of energy release, a magnitude 6 earthquake is about 31 times greater than a magnitude 5.

-1.5 on Richter scale, equals 6 ounces of TNT
1.0 on Richter scale, equals 30 pounds of TNT
1.5 on Richter scale, equals 320 pounds of TNT
2.0 on Richter scale, equals 1 ton of TNT
2.5 on Richter scale, equals 4.6 tons of TNT
3.0 on Richter scale, equals 29 tons of TNT
3.5 on Richter scale, equals 73 tons of TNT
4.0 on Richter scale, equals 1,000 tons of TNT
4.5 on Richter scale, equals 5,100 tons of TNT
5.0 on Richter scale, equals 32,000 tons of TNT
5.5 on Richter scale, equals 80,000 tons of TNT
6.0 on Richter scale, equals 1 million tons of TNT
6.5 on Richter scale, equals 5 million tons of TNT
7.0 on Richter scale, equals 32 million tons of TNT
7.5 on Richter scale, equals 160 million tons of TNT
8.0 on Richter scale, equals 1 billion tons of TNT
8.5 on Richter scale, equals 5 billion tons of TNT
9.0 on Richter scale, equals 32 billion tons of TNT
10.0 on Richter scale, equals 1 trillion tons of TNT
12.0 on Richter scale, equals 160 trillion tons of TNT

So if we said a boom box was a 1.0, a Bose radio might be considered a 3.0. A top of the line Best Buy system might be a 4.0. The typical audiophile system might then be a 5.5 where the old 98% system might be a 6.5. If my system was a 7.5 before the changes it might be a 7.9 now. Albert’s system might be an 8.5, but his new cables could make his system 100% better, or become an 8.6.

In my mind this is more logical for explaining the effects I have experienced. This also means we never find 100% for this scale has no end. Now the issue is how we actually mathematically quantify this logarithmic expression. I figure if some of the engineering minds out there might have an answer for this and this could be a new expression for us to use. If we could come up with a quantifiable formula, it might be a new language for us to express our systems to each other. If we had something like this maybe it could be a part of the virtual systems. We could then begin to understand how an improved cable is affecting our systems.

I may be way off here; it would not be the first time. I do however feel we need another language to express the “last couple percent” because the system we are using is inadequate, and at some point all the clichés mean nothing, and words are wholly inadequate. Perhaps this is a start???
128x128jadem6
Marco,

I actually had two specialties when I owned a 47 person firm. Our primary success was in Golf clubhouses all over North America and just beginning golf resorts in the Pacific Rim. We were one of four major national firms. I was bought out when I decided success was not at the top of the mountains we climb, but is inside our souls. My family, friends and God all were less important when I worked; I found that priority did not fit my beliefs. I continued to pursue my personal favorite and our other specialty, very high end residential. I had my heart attack nine months after leaving my firm, and the rest they say is...

I love designing, and was blessed to have great working relationships with builders. The typical issues architect's run into are often self imposed and ego driven. I discovered humility and a willingness to accept that I'm less than perfect was a great way to get through problems during construction. I so miss the design, but volunteering at the high school has some new amazing rewards.

BTW the biggest house I designed was a 34,000 square foot lodge style stone and shingle house. It had a fairly nice kitchen (actually three fully furnished kitchens, a bit nicer than my $5000 kitchen. Mine really was, it's all turn of the century cabinet fronts from a tear down I worked on and hand me down appliances. The floor and crown mold were the only cost to us.

Yea, my priorities are straight, why would you ask? What, you think the fact that the Dominus interconnect Albert is letting me play with costing more than my kitchen is messed up? You should see my car!!!!

JD
So what is "100%"?
How will you know when you get there?
How do you know you're at 95% now?
Is this 95% for this system or on an absolute scale?

I ask not to be sarcastic but out of interest in how you got these numbers. Since audio is largely a subjective experience and audiophiles spurn any attempt to quantify what they are hearing (how many people consider measurements as valid? - Rather it's "I know what I hear" or other such "don't change what I already know").
I would like to know how anyone can objectively define a purely subjective experience. Until you do:
1) How can you ever truly achieve satisfaction?
2) How could you ever get off the merry go round - if that is your choice?
3) How can you ever define on an absolute scale what you have and what is "correct" above and beyond your subjective feelings which will change depending on a) the song b) your mood c) the time of day etc., etc.
How will you know when you get there?

A knock will come at your door, and it'll be God who shakes your hands, hands you a check with eight figures, and tells you, "Congratulations...you're there!" How will you know? Look for the white van marked "Prize Patrol". It only gets better from there. Angelina Jolie happens to catch one of your multiple appearences on the news, leaves Brad Pitt, and seeks you out to have her children and settle down. Your hair grows back. You achieve inner peace and awareness. And that nasty fungus on your left foot finally goes away. All because of that last piece of the puzzle, that new interconnect you finally sprung for! Best $40,000.00 you ever spent, eh?

Marco
The number of 95% is not mine. It's an often referred to benchmark in audio magazines, books and reviews that I've read regarding a point of diminishing returns on investment. The entire point of this thread was to challenge this number and the concept of an absolute. I wanted to find a language that did not incorporate an absolute because I do not believe it exists.

In my mind, there is a method to refer our personal experiences back to something we all can understand. If an upgrade made your system twice as good in your mind, how can you explain that? In this thread the concept of rating different live performances came up. I liked that concept, discussing live music in different venues is a standard we all might understand. Then how or where is your stereo system within the matrix discussed here?
subjective or objective.....science into art....if I'm in the room my "soul" adds the spice...when an engineer thinks up the things it does start someplace...before you all could measure it to nowhere....

Are you guys in that body you carry around.Just who is measuring and just for who are you measuring.who turns on the measuring device...who is waiting for the read out...who will fix the device when its broken...who build that device.who am i again...LOL
How will you know when you get there?
You won't show up here ever again. That, and someone will be feeding you grapes from a dangling bunch, just like on Batman.
Marco,

It only gets better from there. Angelina Jolie happens to catch one of your multiple appearances on the news.........seeks you out to have her children and settle down

Could I sub Natalie Portman for Angelina Jolie to make the story more exciting?
Angel
Albert,
You're the king of sussing out master tapes, so get us a copy of the full version of "Closer", will ya? I need the last 5% of Natalie.
Speaking of master tapes, I just scored a half inch 30 IPS master of the Isley Brothers. Need to find a studio that can transfer to half track 15 IPS.
Oh, and Jadem6. Angelina has "lips" issues. Enough for two women :^).

How about Uma Thurman or Milla Jovovich ?
Marco's back! Angelina Jolie? Well I'd just settle for no more foot fungus :).
Boa2, sigh; I guess I'll never get there but the journey is fun.
Jadem6, my system is currently a Denon UDM-31 micro system, Marantz CDR-500, and single driver Tang-Band W3-871s speaker flat from 80-20kHz, useful bass into the 60's. Talk about a serious downgrade! Sounds sort of dull detail-wise without much bass but it has a "type" of sound I enjoy very much. PRAT, texture, ambience, natural sound, these things grow on you over time vs. blow you away at the dealer demo. It's hard to go back to multi-way speakers after living with these. Besides, I don't get any more ear pain and don't have any room treatments to deal with.
"how or where is your stereo system within the matrix discussed here?"
In some ways it's a 100%, other ways it really stinks and I'd give it a 50%. Thanks for asking. I don't fit in? Whoa, ask me about the technical aspects of my speaker wire, new speaker project, and future DIY amp project. Can't always put a price on passion. We're more alike about hi-fi than different, strange as that may seem. Good luck!
Cdc, I agree we indeed are more alike than different. I understand your 100%/50% comment and I fully understand we can learn to enjoy any level of audio we have. That is not of dispute.
Sure Albert, you can substitute Natalie - an excellent choice if I dare say! Ever see her in "Beautiful Girls"? She renders total suspension of disbelief that an adult man could fall in love with a 12 year-old (too late not to have folks peg me for a perv). Great movie too, as is "The Professional" or "Leon" [or "The Cleaner" if you prefer] in a whole other genre, complete with an even younger Natalie, and one of my other favorites, Gary Oldman who is balls to-the-wall in that performance, as he was in "Track 29" ....Hollywood wastes his talent IMO.
Jax2,

"Leon" is near the top of my ten movie favorites. I bought the Euro DVD version for my permanent library. I've watched it countless times and admit to falling in love with Natalie every time I see it.

Correct too about Gary Oldman, top of his game here. It's one of those rare movies I can view at least once a year and continue to be entertained.