2. misc-audio
  3. 1133464025

The last 5 ?????

Sometimes as an Audiophile I come to a place where words no longer express the experience I’m having with my system. In this past year I have needed to sell off parts of my system, the biggest changes were going from two Plinius SA-102 amps bi-amped to a single amp, and replacing my Nordost Valhalla cabling with the far more affordable Kubala-Sosna Emotion cables.

The loss of the amp was clear, less dynamics and less involving. The cable change was something significantly different however. The Kubala-Sosna cables are every cliché we audiophiles use. Blacker, better definition, more space between notes, dynamic, extended… These words fail to express the improvement over my Valhalla cables however, and all I can say is I’m more musically involved. This was a clear improvement to my system, and for less money!!! But words fail to adequately express the improvements.

The second experience came when my Sony SCD-1 receiving all the remaining modifications available through Richard Kern at Audiomod.com I had half the mod’s done four years ago, and received the remaining just last month. The fully modified player is said to better the EMM Meitner/Phillips combination. I can not speak to that in that I have never heard this combination, so my basis is strictly within my experiences listening to other systems.

The fully modified Sony is simply amazing, beyond my limits of expression. I could say it’s more analog than any digital system I’ve heard, and yet it’s well beyond analog. It is simply so much more than the analog most of us can afford. It’s also not at all digital, it has none of the electronic, edgy artifacts of solid state and digital systems. The best way I can explain this system is it’s beyond digital and analog that I’m aware of.

Words like three dimensional, attack, tightness, extended, clear, dynamic, natural, subtle all fall completely inadequate when trying to explain my system today. Words just can not explain the sound.

This leads me to my purpose of this post. The topic actually came up talking to Albert Porter when we were discussing continued improvements we make to systems that are already beyond 95% of anything available. In Albert’s case I suspect he is beyond 99.99% and yet we continue to change our systems and reach DRAMATIC improvements.

How is this possible if the last five or three or one percent is as significant as 50% to 90%? What I mean is when I moved from a $1000 system to a $4000 system the improvements were dramatic. Then I moved to a $9000 then $20,000 and finally to where I am now. Each step was marked improvement over the earlier step and even at $4000 I was far beyond anything 95% of the consumers will ever hear. So what’s actually going on? If $4000 gets me to the last few percent, how can each additional step be doubling or tripling the previous systems musicality or involvement or measurable improvement?

Why do some of us get to a point where we believe a single multi-thousand dollar interconnect brought us 100% closer to the music? Why are there some who still claim cables do not effect sound? Clearly they want good sound, but somehow are not aware of what is possible due to limits in there 95% system.

My answer is either the last couple percent are actually far more significant than the first 95% or we are actually only 25% “there” with a $4000 system. I can not even express how big the changes I have made are. They are well beyond two times, maybe three or four times the significance on the system before these changes. That would mean I was something like 25% or 45% “there” before. Well that is crazy because I have not hear a system I enjoyed more than mine. I’ve heard some that were better in one area or another, but overall… Of course this is a subjective topic, and I understand that, but the point is for my room, my ears, my taste I was already 100%, yet now I’ve bettered it by two or three fold.

All I can think is this is not a 100% issue. This is something more like the open ended Richter scale. On the Richter scale every tenth of a point is doubling the magnitude of an earthquake. The Richter scale is logarithmic, that is an increase of 1 magnitude unit represents a factor of ten times in amplitude. The seismic waves of a magnitude 6 earthquake are 10 times greater in amplitude than those of a magnitude 5 earthquake. However, in terms of energy release, a magnitude 6 earthquake is about 31 times greater than a magnitude 5.

-1.5 on Richter scale, equals 6 ounces of TNT
1.0 on Richter scale, equals 30 pounds of TNT
1.5 on Richter scale, equals 320 pounds of TNT
2.0 on Richter scale, equals 1 ton of TNT
2.5 on Richter scale, equals 4.6 tons of TNT
3.0 on Richter scale, equals 29 tons of TNT
3.5 on Richter scale, equals 73 tons of TNT
4.0 on Richter scale, equals 1,000 tons of TNT
4.5 on Richter scale, equals 5,100 tons of TNT
5.0 on Richter scale, equals 32,000 tons of TNT
5.5 on Richter scale, equals 80,000 tons of TNT
6.0 on Richter scale, equals 1 million tons of TNT
6.5 on Richter scale, equals 5 million tons of TNT
7.0 on Richter scale, equals 32 million tons of TNT
7.5 on Richter scale, equals 160 million tons of TNT
8.0 on Richter scale, equals 1 billion tons of TNT
8.5 on Richter scale, equals 5 billion tons of TNT
9.0 on Richter scale, equals 32 billion tons of TNT
10.0 on Richter scale, equals 1 trillion tons of TNT
12.0 on Richter scale, equals 160 trillion tons of TNT

So if we said a boom box was a 1.0, a Bose radio might be considered a 3.0. A top of the line Best Buy system might be a 4.0. The typical audiophile system might then be a 5.5 where the old 98% system might be a 6.5. If my system was a 7.5 before the changes it might be a 7.9 now. Albert’s system might be an 8.5, but his new cables could make his system 100% better, or become an 8.6.

In my mind this is more logical for explaining the effects I have experienced. This also means we never find 100% for this scale has no end. Now the issue is how we actually mathematically quantify this logarithmic expression. I figure if some of the engineering minds out there might have an answer for this and this could be a new expression for us to use. If we could come up with a quantifiable formula, it might be a new language for us to express our systems to each other. If we had something like this maybe it could be a part of the virtual systems. We could then begin to understand how an improved cable is affecting our systems.

I may be way off here; it would not be the first time. I do however feel we need another language to express the “last couple percent” because the system we are using is inadequate, and at some point all the clichés mean nothing, and words are wholly inadequate. Perhaps this is a start???
128x128jadem6

Showing 9 responses by jadem6

jadem6's avatar
jadem6 OP
1,074 posts
 
Of course I fully understand some people are completely satisfied with a ten year old Aiwa clock radio or a simple low budget system, and to that persons ears, they are satisfied. Clearly this thread was not addressing those people. In fact I’m always taken back by people who make these comments. Why are you even here at Audiogon? I also understand some people who are offended by others spending more money to get more out of their systems. I even understand there are people who just don’t like me; I’m fine with that too. I always wonder why these people chose to read these threads and what they are looking for at Audiogon. If it’s a low budget sound system fine, but why the need to respond to threads that are clearly not your interest? Onhwy61, you and I have always gotten along well I thought. I’m sorry if my generalizations offended you, I guess I made an assumption that an audiophile website might have audiophiles at it. I guess I didn’t expect too many boomboxers hung out here, sorry I meant nothing against you.

I feel as if somehow I need to explain to these people that I enjoy this hobby, and it has nothing to do with how much I do or do not spend, it’s what I discover is possible. I also feel judged that my expenditure is wasteful or wrong in their eyes. Well to them, until you live in my shoes, please you have no right. When I hear some of the comments it just puzzles me, are these comments for learning or just to make controversy? Some of what I read makes me think these people somehow think I’m lying or have something to gain by expressing my experiences. I just don’t get it, why even comment?

OK, back to the topic at hand. First I fully applaud the comments made by Bigkidx. Your recognition of the room is so big, and so important to the overall experience. I often forget about the countless hours I spend working on improving my rooms reaction to my system. I am very lucky in that my music room is not used for any other activity than music or reading. The full wall of books is not only my library, but it’s a huge piece of the overall room’s performance. I have base traps, corner acoustic triangles, panels on some reflection points, heavy wool rugs, strategic placement of furniture, strategic location of brass pucks, wood “things” that add a pleasant acoustic to the room. I have spent many hours working on deadening lively nodes as well as livening up dead nodes. My bookshelf is designed to break up standing waves…

These features all affect the room’s response to my speakers. Some things have hurt the sound; some have helped create a more realistic sound. Most things do nothing, but the process of trying things never stops. I am always “playing” with something. See the difference between me and those who do not understand my constant striving for better is I enjoy it. Yes I’m certifiably crazy, I accept that, but I’m happy.

So yes the room improves the system in a very, very significant fashion. Once my room is “right” I discover a different tweak suddenly has a far bigger impact than it had before. This is obvious in my endless isolation experimenting. Then once I get a new tweak to increase the performance, I now hear a room effect that I could not hear earlier because the tweak had not been made. The system and room build simultaneously and in harmony with each other. This is the fun for me, and I enjoy sharing these experiences with others who enjoy the hobby.

Bgrazman, I love the question, and the concept of grading actual venues could be useful for us to understand what people are hearing. Again if I’m suggesting my system is now a 7.9 to my ears in my experiences I would say Patricia Barber heard from a center fourth row table in a local jazz night club rated 7.1. Hearing Crosby Stills, Nash and Young a couple years ago in a arena was 6.6. I’ve seen a number of people in a 3000 seat auditorium that was 7.4. A local outdoor 500 seat amp theater was 7.6. Minnesota Orchestra in Orchestra hall is 7.7. And Michael Hedges in the world renowned Guthrie Theater was 8.0. So in my personal experience Reference Recordings disks of Minnesota Orchestra sound better on my system than live. IN MY OPINION, of course. So if all music could be performed in Guthrie Theater in front of 2500 people I would probably not need such a system. My reality is most live music is in woefully inadequate venues and/or the people I enjoy are dead, or not touring 2500 seat theaters, or no long playing or never tour. If these comments are not true, then the venues they play are substandard to my personal tastes.

So what I’m saying is Minnesota Orchestra on my system is two or three times the experience of live in Orchestra Hall. Now the disclaimer is, I have not had the opportunity to be born into a family that owns third row center seats. I expect that would be an experience of 8.5 or more.
jadem6's avatar
jadem6 OP
1,074 posts
 
Marco, I was actually enjoying your comments, you are over the top enough for me to read through. Kitchens!!! I designed entire houses and hardly made a buck, you take pictures of an insignificant corner of those houses and stay warm by burning money. How was that fair?

Albert, thanks. I will be contacting you this week-end about my cable findings. I hate it when I discover another two tenths on the audio scale and the cost is six tenths. Those Purist cables are special!!!
jadem6's avatar
jadem6 OP
1,074 posts
 
It helps a lot to understand what was humor and what is criticism. When I started posting at this site six or seven years ago I used my typical expressive sarcasm to lighten some very serious discussions. I quickly learned that humor is difficult to portray over the internet. Expression and tone are a large part of the delivery. It was then I quit humor and decided to try and share experiences rather than debate the quality of certain experimentations. (Turns out I actually have a lot of humor in my life, it just is too hard over the internet) The cruel humor continued and eventually this site was shut down. After a lot of work by Audiogon they re-opened with new guidelines. I kept my humor to myself, which makes me sound like I’m preaching. I understand this shortcoming of my personality, and eventually left the site because I felt I was no longer of value to the forums.

I came back about nine months ago after a number of people asked me to return. Many of you may not know me or my approach to this hobby, and so I will briefly explain myself. I suffered a major heart attack nine years ago and was expected to die. I was never expected to be alive still today, but I am. My health is not good and I have not been able to work for over three years now. One small place I can express my creativity is here at Audiogon. As an architect creativity is my being, and I miss it deeply. I have found music, this site and volunteering at the local high school architectural drafting class my solace in an otherwise very boring existence.

I tell you this not for sympathy, I would hate that, but rather to explain where I come from. My system has been exactly the same for almost five years before an unexpected hospital visit and ungodly charges force me to downsize my system. Within this downsizing I had occasions where my system sonically fell completely apart, and a couple discoveries where I found better performance for less money. My goal, as always here is to share those findings. In that I no longer partake in the threads where we argue the merits of different cables or the possibility of power conditioning making a difference, or even the blind/ double blind tests, I was not fully prepared for some of the comments I was reading. I have shared my experiences as I downsized, and after receiving my modified SACD player I again wanted to share, but simply had no creative way to explain what I had found. To me a grading system that could compare systems to live music and to other experiences I’ve had made sense. It had nothing to do with elitist grading or the need to say mine is bigger than yours. In fact the huge amount of drugs I take guarantees mine is no longer bigger…

Those who have taken the time to know me know I am passionate about this hobby. Remember, this IS my life. Sad but true, I no longer have any physical activity, I no longer create, but I have incredible friends and family. Some of my friends are here, and we spend a lot of time discussing tweaks in private emails. We discovered it was easier to discuss these things without being critiqued for experimenting. I AM THE WORST OF THE WORST TWEAKER. This is fact, and I have discovered some extremely helpful things. Some want to argue those findings, and as I said I have quit those threads. I do however like to continue moving my enjoyment of this hobby forward. So much of what I have learned over the past five years cost little money, but these tweaks have cumulatively brought my system to a place I could never have imagined. I expect many have also not imagined these tweaks matter, so I share.

This thread is off course of my usual posting, and I have been far too sensitive to the comments I’ve read. I will calm down, and the above humor I now understand and appreciate.

I again apologies for taking this hobby so seriously, but again I will say “until you live in my shoes…”

As a different way to describe myself, people who change equipment like there cloths and every day express “This is the holy grail” drive me crazy. Please understand this is not me. Like I say, my system has remained until I was financially forced to change my components. Most of the time I’m simply enjoying music and ultimately this is where I’m happiest. This is my goal, enjoying music not equipment. I still however believe the initial purpose of this thread has merit, and could help to explain how “we” rank the changes we hear when playing stereo.

So all that said, Thanks for the clarifications and the humor.

Gratefully the most snobby of the esoteric Audiophile kings, JD
jadem6's avatar
jadem6 OP
1,074 posts
 
Al Judy has issues it appears.

I had a mini frig. in collage, I sure wish I had some pictures in my photo album. I think of that little guy often, and miss it deeply.

Marco, I have a $5000 kitchen, but I've designed many $100,000 plus kitchens, would that qualify for your services?
jadem6's avatar
jadem6 OP
1,074 posts
 
Marco,

I actually had two specialties when I owned a 47 person firm. Our primary success was in Golf clubhouses all over North America and just beginning golf resorts in the Pacific Rim. We were one of four major national firms. I was bought out when I decided success was not at the top of the mountains we climb, but is inside our souls. My family, friends and God all were less important when I worked; I found that priority did not fit my beliefs. I continued to pursue my personal favorite and our other specialty, very high end residential. I had my heart attack nine months after leaving my firm, and the rest they say is...

I love designing, and was blessed to have great working relationships with builders. The typical issues architect's run into are often self imposed and ego driven. I discovered humility and a willingness to accept that I'm less than perfect was a great way to get through problems during construction. I so miss the design, but volunteering at the high school has some new amazing rewards.

BTW the biggest house I designed was a 34,000 square foot lodge style stone and shingle house. It had a fairly nice kitchen (actually three fully furnished kitchens, a bit nicer than my $5000 kitchen. Mine really was, it's all turn of the century cabinet fronts from a tear down I worked on and hand me down appliances. The floor and crown mold were the only cost to us.

Yea, my priorities are straight, why would you ask? What, you think the fact that the Dominus interconnect Albert is letting me play with costing more than my kitchen is messed up? You should see my car!!!!

JD
jadem6's avatar
jadem6 OP
1,074 posts
 
The number of 95% is not mine. It's an often referred to benchmark in audio magazines, books and reviews that I've read regarding a point of diminishing returns on investment. The entire point of this thread was to challenge this number and the concept of an absolute. I wanted to find a language that did not incorporate an absolute because I do not believe it exists.

In my mind, there is a method to refer our personal experiences back to something we all can understand. If an upgrade made your system twice as good in your mind, how can you explain that? In this thread the concept of rating different live performances came up. I liked that concept, discussing live music in different venues is a standard we all might understand. Then how or where is your stereo system within the matrix discussed here?
jadem6's avatar
jadem6 OP
1,074 posts
 
no, she has a nose issue, almost hawkish
jadem6's avatar
jadem6 OP
1,074 posts
 
Cdc, I agree we indeed are more alike than different. I understand your 100%/50% comment and I fully understand we can learn to enjoy any level of audio we have. That is not of dispute.
jadem6's avatar
jadem6 OP
1,074 posts
 
Clearly I need to apologize. I apparently come across as an elitist, and I see I created this impression. I debated whether or not to use the term Audiophile. My fault lay in the fact I do not spend the time I used to in the forums and clearly a new group have become active. I meant not to insinuate that dollars equal quality or even that a certain amount must be spent to qualify for audio discussions.

That being said, I was under the impression people used these forums as a way to learn and share their hobby. I had no idea people who enjoy boom boxes spent time discussing cables, my mistake.

My initial and subsequent comments are trying to investigate methods of explaining to others how changes affect their system once they run out of words or numbers. For my needs, I would like a better description than “way better” to express the experience the person has had. I think I explained I had run out of words, yet I continue to find more potential in my system than I had when I thought I “was there.” Of course I realize some don’t care or “need” to have the final 5%, but I know some do. I mistakenly expected those who don’t care would simply not post on this thread. What is the point discussing something you do not care about?

It was this exact type of exchange that made me lose interest in this site in the past. I had thought it was better now, but I don’t know. I’m sorry I’m an elitist in some minds; I simply was trying to figure out why some people would even post on my question if they felt it was so esoteric and elitist. I just don’t get it, that’s all.

If questioning ones motives for posting is elitist, then yes I am an elitist. I however only post on questions I can add value to, not for the sake of disagreement. Sure disagreement has its place, it simply surprised me this thread was one that fit that description.

So yes I must be an elitist, and yes I must be looking down my nose at all you little people. If that’s what works for you, fine.

Signed your snobbery, JD
More to discover