Mel guys is right as we all know. I just haven't been able to warm up to the Wilson's, Magico's, Raido's and many other top priced speakers. The ones using carbon seem to have a sound that I do like. The Be and Diamonds still don't do it for me. Implementation is most important of course. Magic is a great speaker for many folks as are Wilson's, but the sound to me it just a tad to bright still. The new Magicos and the new Wilson's with the cloth tweeter are better for my ear and I could own them, but they just haven't drawn me in and I've heard both lines in many stores now with many different combinations of electronics. That's just my ear.
As I've said prior,I didn't want to like the Vandersteen's either and not I own the Treo's and hope like heck to get the Quatro's soon.
Why do folks use cables to 'tune' a system or speakers specifically? Personally I just never understood that. Just get speakers you fall in love with and get electronics that work with the speakers. Cables make a bit of a difference, but once you start spending that extra money on them, you can possibly get what you want to begin with. Not saying they don't work, but even speaker designers will tell you that cables usually don't make as big a difference as to many feel they do. Just an interesting thing to debate possibly. |
Too bad Avalon is loosing most of their top dealers as they won't advertise like the dealers want them to. Great sounding speakers. I heard the Times and they were really nice. Not worth the money for me compared to similar costing gspakers, but nice. Was just told by a friend whom I trust that the NOLA's were really sweet sounding. Nice bass and they really drew him into the fabric of the music. I agree with the Wilson's having poor bass. Even the XLF's I've heard in a few different rooms and systems now, didn't impress at all. I thought the bass didn't live up to what you can get in nearly any of the 60k speakers we've talked about in this thread. bigger and louder maybe, but not as good quality wise. The rooms were fine too, so I don't think that was the problem. |
Mel, maybe they will. Vandy's never did until their new stuff. Again, I keep an open mind. Ton's of great speakers don't do it for me. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy listening to them, but I'd never own them. I didn't like the Magico's before the new ones at all, so for me they are getting better. Maybe they never will draw me in. They'll still be popular and make money, so it's not a big deal, lol. I"ve listened to Wilson's since before he came out with his puppy's. I was amazed at the Watt when I first heard it in the studio. It was great for recording, but I never wanted to own one. I had a headache after dealing with them the first day and never used them again. Everyone who plays the XLF's for me gets so excited about them and keep telling me how great they are. I don't have the heart to tell them that I don't like them. Open, detailed, big huge bass and the list goes on, but I just don't warm up to them. Focal's the same thing and I used to LOVE a small pair of JM Lab Microns I believe they called them. Now, I don't like them. I did hear a larger Utopia that showed promise last year, but I didn't' spend much time with them as I wasn't getting them anyways. They were the first of the Focal's that weren't too bright for me. I haven't heard their whole line at all though just what the local dealer has had for years. |
I"m not sure of the differences. For me most of the older ribbons types were very bright. Hence needing the tubes. I haven't heard those so don't know what the difference was. Has anyone heard both of them who can share. Great question. Love talking about older gear. If you were asking about Proacs, I could go on and on about any of them, lol. Even the little changes, lol. |
Stringreen, I completely agree with you. That's the biggest reason I decided to shop around to as many stores as I could when deciding to sell off everything I have put together over the years and start from scratch. By selling off all my stuff it gave me a budget to work with. I then told myself that I wanted to only buy a SYSTEM and not just components that sounded good on their own. I ended up over 2 hours from where I live (Audio Connection in NJ). I fell in love with the Vandy Treo's with Ayre integrated, AQ cables and a small Music Hall DAC. I figure that the DAC is musical enough for now and I'm sure THAT will be the first thing I change if and when I change anything. The synergy of amp/speakers was huge and the cables made a huge difference. I have heard the same speakers elsewhere and they sounded awesome, but the Ayres just made them sing to me.
I just think synergy gets lost as we always say things like "best component ever'. How often have we heard something sound great in the store and not so great at home in our real life room? I think you have to start somewhere of course, but this is why going to a dealer is so important I think. I was willing to buy new this time in order to get things right the first time.
Best I've heard is Vandy 7 with Ayre mono's and AR pre with top of the line AQ cables adn Music Surroundings (I think that's the company) turntable. with all AQ interconnects. The room is perfect and it all sounded awesome. I would love to hear the same system with the new Vandy amps installed. It had everything I've ever wanted in a speaker. They were real. Soundstage was correct and not HUGE, unless it was recorded that way. It was revealing, but truthful if bet (you never know what the engineer was laying down). JMHO |
Just back from Audio Connections where I got to hear Vandy's, Pro Acs, Maggies and B&W.....not even close. Vandy's just clobber the others as they are coherent and give you exactly what the electronics are giving them. They are just musical. I will take them all day long over higher priced Legacy models. I do like the Aeris's, but they have too much bass. It's not coherent or real. Too much of a bass boost that gives them an even 'fuller' sound. Most speaker companies will take that route, especially smaller ones in order to sound fuller. I can't listen to Focal's anymore either and I used to love them (I owned a few pair). I also own a small pair of Paradigm and don't find them in the same league either. Vandy with Ayre and AR on Vinyl was some of the best sounds I"ve heard in years. |
It's funny to me. I've never liked the Thiel's. Too hot on the top end for me and I've tried all kinds of amps, cables, cords etc... My local dealer sells them and personally he loves them. That's just my ears and I respect all who swear by them, but I can't listen to em. I don't love the Focals that much either anymore. I did when they were JM Lab and I even had a pair. They do a lot right, but for their price points, I've heard a few others (for my ear) that I like better. For me most every phase coherent speaker that is first order crossed sounds natural and still detailed. The biggest problem I have with most speakers is that they cross things in the most important part of the mids and you lose that magic that music has. I have begun looking for designers who make their own mids that are fast fast fast and are crossed over in a 1st order so that you don't' lose that magic. It's a learned thing I think. You hear it sounding 'right' and don't' even know why. It just sounds 'un hifi' like and very natural like live music does. To me, even most of the esoteric speakers don't' get the mids correct. I"ve now heard so many of these top of the line, 100k plus speakers and they don't sound as good as some of these others speakers that I've fallen for. They do some other things better. They may be much dynamic, however in the end, they don't' get the micro or macro dynamics right and they really aren't so dynamic. As a reference though, I don't like panels of any kind really and I've only heard a ribbon tweeter sound good in a couple of speakers I've heard recently. Most are way too hot on the top end and even to the point of being distorted to me.
Again, nothing against my of these great speakers our there that you all love. It just reinforces that there are different makes for all our ears. |
The only problem any of us really have is listening to speakers side by side. It's all about emotion to me. I know HOW I feel when listening and why I do. As for the cost of the Vandy's, the carbon drivers are hand made using balsa wood and YES they are worth it to plenty of us who have paid for them because we felt they have sounded better. I was a Proac guy for years and still like much of what they do. They are some of the only ribbons I even like. They don't convey the emotions. The Vandy's reveal just as much as 'detailed' speakers do and they soundstage just as well too as long as they are set up right. I just assume that stores are setting things up the way they are supposed to be and go from there. Electronics are a bitch to match. Folks just don't get it. Most just say "I want X amps" because they know the name and have been TOLD they are great. One reason I decided to go to a store where I trust what they say, was because I wanted them to show me what amps THEY liked best and why. I made my own decisions, but it was easy to hear why they liked various amps and sources. Do I still want more out of my system? Yes, but I don't have the money to buy the integrated bass that I'd love. I can't afford the top of the line Ayre gear, but when I can, I know my speakers will let me hear the upgrades in spades. I can listen to MIngus all day long and sometimes I do. Yes, piano is tough to make sound natural and they carbon midrange of the Vandy upperline speakers get it right. They are some of the only speakers I've heard that can do that to the mids AND still do everything else right that we all talk about. RARE breed indeed. I was a detractor until I heard them and that opened my ear. |
Just hear the Vandersteen 7 mk I with AR 9 DAC, music server driven by Ayre Ref Twenty electronics connected with highend AQ cables with NO power conditioner etc... What a sound. It was excellent in the morning and come late afternoon it was cooking. As good as it sounded, it was off by 2" as someone had messed with them. I can't wait to get back to hear them set up properly. My Treo's are now being run by the Ayre AX5/Twenty and it's a new speaker. These things just keep getting better and better with every upgrade. Heck, the new SR Powercell 10 Tesla has take it all to a new level too. I can't wait to fix up my room so it sounds even better. |
Bodhi, I heard them with tube gear at Overture. My buddy has the Q5's and uses all AR Ref gear and I just haven't connected to them. That's just me. I don't connect with most speakers out there. I listen for different things than many do. I have a local dealer who was carrying them years ago when they first started out and I didn't get them back then either, but again, I have plenty of friends who swear by them. That's nothing negative against them at all, just me. It's a nice looking and well built speaker. There were many parts of them that I liked a lot, but I had no connection and haven't with any of their models I've heard at dealers like Overture as well as friends houses over the years. Please don't take my post as a negative against Magico. They are highly accurate and I have found that's the part that most of the phase coherent speakers all seem to have. I have sat and listened to the highest end Wilson speakers over the years and I don't get them either, however they are very popular with many audiophiles. Nothing against them, just not for me.
Many don't get the Vandersteen line either and that's all good too. Those of us who do love them, seem to hear the same things. I like to sit and get moved. My Ayre Twenty gear is neither tubed nor SS in sound. To me (and many other's) they sound correct. I love many tube electronics and have owned CJ, AR, CAT, Quick over the years and have even wanted Jadis for the longest time, but now I only have SS other than my Aesthetix Rhea phono stage and eventually I"ll sell that and get a balanced SS phono pre as I run only balanced into my amps.
That's what makes audio so much fun. |
I've heard a lot of folks talking about the Solution amps. I really need to get to hear a new set of those. |
Have you guys heard the Rowland, Boulder and Ayre reference amps (the newest versions?). |
Never heard the Muraudio's. How old are they? Were they sold in the US? |
Why limit it to speakers you've only owned. It's ever heard. Many of us get out a lot to stores and audition many speakers. In the last couple of weeks I've heard speakers ranging in price from 250k to 200. I've not liked most of what I've heard. Most of the ones I've listened to for a few hours have given me enough to know that I couldn't never enjoy them. Too often I heard that upper midrange ringing that so many folks mistake for extension of treble or openess of a speaker. Many of these high end speakers do one or two things really well, but let me down in some areas that I personally can't live with. Others seem to like the 'hifi' sound and that's why we have so many choices. The Vandersteen 7's are still in the top spot for me. There are many top speakers I've been unable to hear as they aren't in my area, or I don't know WHO is showing them out of their basement. I'm still learning that this industry has changed so much, lol. I just hope a thread like this helps many who are following to go out and go audition. There are still plenty of great audio stores and now home based stores where you can audition. That's the only way you will know what you like or dislike. That's the only way we can keep this industry going forward. You don't have to buy those expensive models, but I bet many will rethink what they have and will want to change out or it will just confirm that you have what you should have. JMHO
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Original Thiel or the new stuff. To me the sound is so different that the original Thiel users probably won't love the new stuff and visa versa. Even the Thiel dealers I know are highly disappointed by the new gear and are getting rid of the line. One I know has had top of the line Thiel's in his personal system since the 80's and now he's getting rid of them in favor of something else. |
I'm not a Thiel guy at all. New or old, so I'm probably not the best one to say. |
I used to love the Quad ESL's with warm tube amps. My tastes have changed greatly over the years, but I do have great memories of that speaker. |
Funny as that's what drew me into the Vandersteen line of speakers. They were the first multi driver dynamic speakers that sound nearly point source. That's also a reason I have never heard a subwoofer based system that is coherent to me. Double subs, set up the way they are supposed to be etc.... I've just never heard them integrated perfectly. I don't know if you can regardless of how it's set up with meters etc... JMHO. I've heard so much about Lowther, but never heard them. I have never been in love with the AN speakers or others that are similar as they do midrange extremely well, but the highs and lows just aren't there for me as you can't ask a driver to handle that type of range. How are the Lowther based systems on the frequency extremes? Can they really give you sub 30hz bass that is tight and doesn't bleed into the mid bass or even mid range? I do want to hear a pair as it's so hard to believe that you get a true full range sound. I have a friend who's system I haven't been able to hear (he's on the other coast for me) and he said he loves the Lowther driver. He designed and made his own cabinets and crossovers. His main system is Vandersteen though. Very interesting designs and manufactures in this thread. I've personally gone out can listened to many of the posters speakers that I've never heard before. Thanks to all for sharing. Appreciated. |
Got a full day of listening to the Vandersteen 7 mkII's on Saturday. Unreal how great this speaker is. AMG TT with new ARC ref pre and Vandersteen's liquid cooled amps. They come with the AQ WEL cables attached to them. The system was just amazing and the best sound I've ever heard at any price. Then Garth from AQ installs his new Niagara 7000 power deal with his prototype power cord that will be out pretty soon and the cost is not much for a cable. This new cable line will be one of the best buys in audio. The system with the Niagara gave us the whole hall, detail that just wasn't there without it and SPACE. Even when he installed the 1000 for only 999 the system was about 90% of what the 7000 did. The 1000 has only 1 outlet for power and the other 5 are source with room for wall warts. I was blown away by the Niagara. It's a full component upgrade at least. I wasn't the only one. Garth is as good a presenter as you can find. I know this is about your favorite speaker, but the Vandersteen with the Niagara plugged in went to another level entirely. I spoke with a gentleman who owns a speaker that costs over 200k and he said that he will be selling and getting the Vandersteens. He said he's auditioned many of the speakers over 150k and he said nothing has come close for him in this type of setting. Can't tell on anything without it being in your home and system of course. Blown away...just amazing.... Thanks for letting me share. |
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And the Vandersteen Quatro's are just about dialed in at the factory. Been on the phone with Johnny Rutan at Audio Connection all morning and setting up the install date. I can not wait. The more speakers I audition, the more I appreciate the Vandersteen line. they just know what how to make a great speaker. Thankful I gave them a second chance as the first dealer years ago just didn't set them up right and of course they didn't sound their best. |
not the best I've heard as that's the model two up in the line, but I have Vandersteen Quatro CT in Audi Havana Black paint coming home in the next week or two. CAn't wait. |
Wow, that's one heck of a set up. Heard it many times and absolutely love that combo better than any of the AR electronics. |
Which amp set up was it with?
Bob, I got the amp back, but no speakers yet. Hopefully soon. AS you know it's been a while, lol. I am itching at getting everything back into the system.
I have decided to sell off my Basis 1400 TT with Gingko base along with my factory rebuilt and updated Rhea though. I'm also going to put the Synergistic Research Powercell Ten mk 2 with the Tesla cord, on the market too. Time to pare down a bit and go from there. Time to move away from analog as it's hard for me to get up and change albums sides now, so there's that. As for the SR piece, I want to just go back to wall power and then refigure things. It's a great piece as you have heard, but I have dedicated circuits and it already is pretty clean. I may up the ante eventually and get the Niagara power unit as I have heard the 7000 and it's killer. |
gottcha. That is the best preamp I've ever heard. I've heard it in so many different systems at houses as well as stores. I'd start a full system with that pre if I had to. I'd use a lesser amp like a 5 series if needed as to me, it's that much of a difference in sound quality.
Yes, it probably was the MXR that he had on for you. I can't wait to hear the 9 series. If set up properly, those extra bass units will really smooth out any room. |
The Quatro's arrived and are breaking in nicely. Loving the sound. Just amazing all around speakers. They are set into the corners right near the wall. The bass and size of the soundstage is amazing. Best speakers I've had in the house. Probably, for me, the best buy in high end audio IRT speakers. The sweet spot in Vandersteen's line. |
Dead on Steve. This is why they call it a system. Synergy is important. Find a speaker you seem to love in your price range and then match the components. Too may folks just buy and sell speakers and then trash them or wax poetic. JMHO |
Got to hear the two top Wilson speakers recently. I thought they were much better than in the past generation, but still didn't do it for me. Vandy 7's still sit at the top of my personal perch. |
For me it's still the Vandersteen System 9 (pair of sub 9's with Model 7 mk2). I've heard the larger Magico's, Rockports, top two Wilson's, Von Schwiekerts, Dynaudio's top three models as well as the largest Maggies (newest), Tidal's and others in the over 100k league.
Vandy still gives me the goosebumps. I have always been drawn to true phase and time correct speakers and I'm not into digital room correction for bass built in etc... I've yet to hear it done properly.
That doesn't mean that I couldn't own some of these others and love them, but I'd want the Vandersteen's and I wasn't even a fan years ago. Just like any other speaker, they need to be set up correctly. I've been blessed to be able to audition so much awesome gear. Oh, I like the Kharma's too. Another excellent speaker. |
The more I listen, the more I realize that I'm part of teh group that's supper sensitive to time and phase correct speakers. I'm talking true time and phase correct and that means the whole system.
It's more expensive to make a speaker this way and the crossover isn't cheap, nor is it easy to do correctly. There are only a handful of speaker who are built this way, but when you hear it set up properly, you get the emotion that is often times absent (to my ears) in many of the 150k plus speakers out there. Almost like the OLD tube vs SS deal. I had owned tubes only since the mid 70's until I found some SS companies that were neither tube nor SS. again, just my take. |
