Wasn't wrong. Townshend himself said you do lose a bit of dynamics, for the very reason I gave. So not wrong. But not a very complete understanding of the problem either. Rick sent me a very good explanation along with a link to some more info. Like I said before, strange no one ever bothered to explain it before. Oh well. Once they did it was easy enough to understand. Very simply what is lost in dynamics is insignificant compared to the smearing or ringing that is removed. Credit Rick, and Townshend, for that.
Also a lot of what I've been doing is good, and will be even better with springs. It really is about controlling vibration, only it turns out its better create a situation where each component is free to do its own thing without the vibrations it creates traveling into and smearing everything else. That's basically what was going on with the speakers. They did sound better on Cones. But they sound even better still on springs.
Speaker cables really do sound better on elevators. Was trying for the longest time to figure out why that was. Finally with the rubber band suspension trick it seems the reason is putting them up off the floor they are free to vibrate only to the signal, without feeding that into the floor, and without floor vibrations feeding back into the signal. Since they do in fact vibrate (touch one some time and see) it seems logical this is what's going on.
Now what this means of course, the whole system, every little bit of it, can probably be improved this way. Rubber bands. Who'd a thunk?
Actually, that would be Rick. Again.
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viber6- We talked on the phone. All he said was fabric vs metal. Didn't have to say much, we were already on the same page.
You're right, the lower the frequency the more its quantity over quality. I've never heard of anyone with an all-Be Moab. Or Ulf, or Encore. Its kinda spendy. Now what a number of people have done is try one Tekton, find out how good they really are and upgrade. Once you live with em and get how good they really are its much easier to believe him when he says how good they are with all Be. Won't affect me, I'm happy. But its crazy to think of all the people spending way more on other stuff knowing there's just no way.... but they are happy so whatever. If you order all-Be there's just no way you will be anything less than blown away. No way.
raysmtb-
Townshend's video is pretty persuasive. Its real easy to think of the floor as being so much more solid and massive than the speaker that it will help hold the speaker and so the last thing you would want is bouncy springs. Until you see that graph. The floor moves a whole lot more than you'd think. Even concrete.
There still needs to be vibration control. For now the Moabs are still on BDR Cones on the Spring Thing, which is just like the Townshend platform only MDF instead of steel. Need to see if its better directly on the springs, or with Round Things under the Cones. There's still a need for vibration control. On that score we plan on trying a DIY vibration damper to go on top.
What's funny is I've been saying for years there's no such thing as isolation, and that even if there was you still need vibration control. Which is all true. The main difference is now realizing its more of a two-pronged approach. On the one hand suspend, to the extent you're able, the component so its not getting vibrations from whatever its sitting on. While also on the other hand controlling, or tuning, vibrations generated within the component itself.
These aren't really at odds. They're complimentary. Or so it now seems anyway.
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Heavens Door, Blantons, Eagle Rare, or Angels Envy. Finally, something useful from this thread! 😂😂 oldhvymec, My 50 watt Melody is usually cracked about 1/3 at a very satisfying level. Half volume and its louder than most would want for any length of time. Not rock concert loud, but they could do that too and maybe even with the same amp. I just don't ever feel the need. My amp sub out is just a sub out that I modded onto it. The Raven amps sub out can be switched to crossover the mains at 80 or 100Hz to save them having to handle the most powerful region. https://www.ravenaudio.com/product/osprey-mk3/ Apparently it makes their amps seem much more powerful. Which I can believe. I just don't feel the need with my Moab/DBA setup. |
Just expanded the rubber band suspension system to interconnects and power cords. Just six cable elevators, 12 bands, and the improvement in clarity and especially extension is again impressive. What's really impressive I guess is how revealing the Moabs are of upstream mods. Its just super easy to hear every little difference. People talk about diminishing returns. Seems at best a questionable concept. Especially when you can get this kind of improvement for free. This simple suspension system concept is worth at least as much improvement as a Fuse, ECT, HFT, or other stuff that would run you a couple hundred bucks. For free. Amazing. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367Study the last picture to see how its done. The rubber band stretches across the cradle area so that the cable lays on the band and doesn't directly touch the elevator. This can be done all kinds of different ways. Next phase will be to suspend the phono lead, motor umbilical, and all the other cables behind the rack. These suspension tweaks are just crazy good. |
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Anyone familiar with my system will know everything is on Black Diamond Racing Cones and stuff. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 Several BDR Shelfs left over from when I had more gear have been just sitting around on the, er, shelf. Well I have been looking for ideas for mass loading the speakers and so last night decided to try a Shelf. Moabs are 14x17 and the Shelf is 14x18. They weigh about 8lbs or so. Most important of course they are incredibly stiff and non-resonant. Each Moab has one HFT on top. Okay so I move the HFT to the Shelf, place the Shelf on top so it is flush all around (sticks out 1" in back) and drop the needle on Roxy Music. Wow. Is this for real? Huge improvement in detail and presence, and a pretty darn nice improvement in palpable dynamics. Kind of thing that tells you its a real drum stick hitting the rim, which already is what Moabs excel at, only now even more so. I've used a Shelf under a speaker before. But these are the first ones I've had with a flat top the right size to benefit from a Shelf like this. Figured it would work but frankly was not expecting this much. If ksnel331 makes it here Saturday and has time would be cool to demo a few things like this. |
millercarbon, from 8-20:
Today was the Spring Thing test platform for the springs rixthetrix is
helping me with. One of the harder parts is finding springs tuned to the
size and weight of the component. Next is figuring out the dimensions
to get good balance and stability. So I decided to slap together
something ugly, and so now I know ride height and balance. Just need to
fine tune a few details then figure out how to make it all look good.
Sound
good, that part we got covered. Everyone was right, the springs improve
everything. Instead of feeling bass coming up through the floor and
chair you feel it in your chest and what you feel and hear is way more
articulate, tuneful and detailed, with a lot more character. Not only
bass, the whole presentation is deeper and more 3D. There's no loss of
dynamics. Wouldn't exactly say there's more dynamics, but it sort of
feels that way sometimes because the background noise floor seems quite a
bit lower.
millercarbon from today, talking about mass loading with BDR Shelf:
Huge improvement in detail and presence, and a pretty darn nice
improvement in palpable dynamics. Kind of thing that tells you its a
real drum stick hitting the rim, which already is what Moabs excel at,
only now even more so. Seemed pretty clear when I wrote it. Still does. Oh well. |
Current Spring Thing is nothing more than a sheet of plain 3/4" MDF 28x20 with two 4" MDF squares screwed one in each corner. I used a circle saw to cut 3" diameter holes in those and set the speaker on the platform. Put the springs in the holes, take a third 4" square, push it down to compress the spring, screw it down part way. Speaker bounces up. Repeat each corner, then little by little screw the top piece down to adjust level. Hope you can imagine that, I am not to keen on posting a picture because the Hateful 18 will generate a hundred mocking pages not a one of them getting the important point that its about testing not the final result. I do a fair bit of this, the Miller Carbon Turntable did not just pop onto the stand the way it is today nor the rack its on for that matter.
When its done I might post the whole thing so people can see and hopefully learn. Because more often than not guys ask about doing something like an arm board and ignore the advice to try with different materials never mind what it looks like just try and listen and learn. That's what's going on here and now with the Spring Thing. When its done it will be fine. Maybe not as good as a $1300 whatever but pretty darn impressive even so and especially with total development cost that will probably be less than what that platform would run me in Washington State sales tax alone.
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Thecarpercavilian writes- I would not have expected that from someone who consistently practices illeism. We pride ourselves on our uncommonly large vocabulary and at first thought the carper had merely misspelled elitism. But, not so fast! Illeism is the act of referring to oneself in the third person instead of first person. It is sometimes used in literature as a stylistic device. In real-life usage, illeism can reflect a number of different stylistic intentions. Learn something new every day, we always say. Nonetheless we must note the stuffy style. We prefer "nosism". Although frankly, best and most fitting of all is the royal we. Yes. The royal we. Fits us like a glove. |
Mass loading is a rather shall we say loaded term. A book, bag of sand, or lead weight are all mass loading. What I did was put a BDR Shelf on top. It has mass, yes. But much more importantly it has extreme stiffness and damping properties. Mass alone would never yield the incredible retrieval of inner detail and presence of the Shelf. Its not just mass, its that it lays perfectly flush with the top, controlling cabinet vibration, and doing it at the top of a long lever arm as well. Physics. The Moab is a very highly balanced speaker. Centered axially around the tweeter. With Cones under and sitting on the platform its now got very nearly the same mass above as below. Where before the top was light. Since being on springs its free to reverberate then the Shelf on top probably makes it even more balanced. Wish I had enough to try one below to match the one on top. MC, thanks for the description of the spring platforms. When you say that the third 4" square is screwed down part way. Do you mean that the screw hole in plate 3 is larger than the screw, allowing it to float freely? There's two 4" squares in each corner, stacked on on top of the other. Its 3/4" thick MDF. So 2.5" thick altogether. Screwed together from the bottom, screws going up. 3" hole drilled through for the spring. The last 4" square goes on top. It has no hole drilled in it. It holds the spring down. Then by adjusting the top screws I can adjust the height. Pretty clever, eh? |
The great Robert Harley said, "every audiophile knows the futility of describing to the uninitiated the experience of hearing music through a high end audio system." and "This phenomenon isn't confined to neophytes." No kidding. Sometimes, with some of them, you just give up even trying. But not all, and so we try. It helps a lot to be able to compare. That's why we change components and listen and compare, to try and understand how they change the sound. Not why, how. Hard enough just to hear how. Then since we're trying to get better and better it helps to understand what. Not why, what. What made it better? Was it the fancy case? Shiny knobs? Or the rectifier diode? Caps? Tubes? Transformer? Hard questions to answer. Especially since changing components usually means changing every single one of those things, and more. This is why a cardinal rule of component evaluation is to change only one thing at a time. Even though everyone should now understand this is not what we are doing. We changed one component. But we changed the diodes, caps, transformer, etc etc on and on. Still, it stands to reason that the more we can drill down into and get closer to changing just the one thing, the closer we can get to understanding what and how. This is the real reason reviewers list all the components in their system. This is why they go to such trouble to detail all their accessories and warmup rituals. To help get us all closer to the what. Was it the component? Or the shelf he put the component on? Some may see this as totally incomprehensible and throw up their hands in futility. We see it only as an opportunity to roll up our sleeves and get to work trying even harder to understand and explain. Keith is coming Saturday. |
Keith and Deborah just spent the last few hours listening to some music. Beatles, Dire Straits, Miles Davis, Dick Hyman, Fleetwood Mac, Doug MacLeod, Jennifer Warnes, and more. A few 33, a few 45s, a few Hot Stampers. At one point during Ride Across the River I removed the Cable Elevators, then put them back, and Deborah had no problem hearing the difference. She loves the DBA bass. They'll be ordering Moabs. It was fun being able to show and demo some of these things. People can only learn so much from looking at pictures and reading words. As Keith and Deborah said, they need to come and listen. Hope to have them back some time. Anyone else? You are more than welcome! https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 |
I'm on Rose Hill in Redmond, 2 miles east of 405 off Exit 18. Click my name, then click the last choice "message user". Surely you played a digital source like CD , Streamer , or Blu-ray ? Sorry, but no. Instead, we listened to music. |
Thanks guys. Just a Costco Riesling but it goes well with Jarlsberg and grapes. Ribs were done just as you were leaving, after which the CRB was perfect with some more tunes. The last side was from Jennifer Warnes The Well, the 45. Wonderful recording. Glad you enjoyed it. Got a lot more like that for next time. Never even got to Ellington, Sinatra, AKUS, let alone the classics. The Wall is positively mind-blowing!
Paul, aka pinwa, is coming over from Bainbridge Island later this afternoon. Meantime I am gonna go mow the lawn. Foam plugs and over the ear. Fun weekend!
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Deborah- The first thing that came to my mind when I saw the Moabs was; Wow these are so big...is the sound going to be overpowering for the room size? When you said they're so big you were expecting them to sound big but they don't, they disappear and everything sounds the size it should, that's exactly what others have noticed about them. Its one of the things I looked for in reviews. Because there are plenty of big speakers that do make everything big. Not these. Only when they need to be. During the middle of one song (I had my eyes closed) ,Chuck took the cables off the Cable Elevators; I immediately heard the sound become distorted and muddy. Good one. Did not know that. For those who don't know, the room was dark and I sneak quietly around the outside of the speakers so as not to interfere with the music, which is playing the whole time. I remove one Cable Elevator at a time going L to R, then continue on around the outside of the R speaker. Got my hands full doing that without tripping in the dark. So did not know until now Deborah was eyes closed. In other words she heard this without any other than auditory cues. Keith on the other hand was watching, and yet wasn't sure he heard the difference. (Its bigger in the sweet spot, where he wasn't.) This is how in less than the time it takes to play Dire Straits Ride Across the River we were able to successfully double-blind Cable Elevators, and disprove expectation bias. Not bad for four minutes work. |
https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367The turntable is built by millercarbon. All the parts not built from scratch are modified, every single one, right down to three different mods within the bearing itself. The rack is complete DIY. Every single component from the power conditioner to the phono stage, amp, and all the wire is modified and/or extensively tweaked. Power is 4 ga, 240V stepped down to 120V, with power treatment that begins at the meter. Virtually every inch from the extensively treated panel to the conditioner (and all the way to each component) is treated with at least two different shear wave improving technologies. Oh, and the room is treated, records are Walker Enzyme’d, and sometimes Hot Stampers. Awful lot going on. And yet you guys are sharp enough to notice the speakers aren’t stock. Nothing goes over your heads. Your reflexes are too fast. You would catch it. |
Nice Guardians of the Galaxy Drax quote you managed to sneak in there. Drax is a frikken genius compared to this schlemiel. |
pinwa came by yesterday for a listen. He's expecting Moabs in another month or so. Always try and play music my listeners will enjoy, though not usually exactly what they ask for, and it seems he is another one to be won over by Jennifer Warnes. He "posted" his review in an email to me, pasted here with his permission: [Spoiler alert- volume was the usual 85-95 dB.] Thank you again for spending the afternoon with me and letting me listen to your system. Honestly, the experience was a little overwhelming. Your system sounds so different from what I have and from what I was expecting. I'm still trying to process what I heard and I should have asked you more questions about what I thought I was hearing.
Clearly, there is a massive, detailed soundstage. But the bass was so much more intense than what I think of as normal and I have no idea if that is because I don't know how it should sound or 5 subwoofers is overpowering for me. I wish I had thought to ask if you could turn the subwoofers off to see how the Moabs present by themselves.
Your normal listening volumes are much louder than what I'm accustomed to and that was a little overwhelming/distracting and I should have asked you to lower them so it would compare more closely that what I do at home. And the midrange/vocal presence is huge. Listening to them at your place I thought it might be too much but coming back home and listening to my 1.7's and one subwoofer I found myself missing that big full round sound your system has.
I wonder how much of that is the Melody amp and how much the various tweaks you made. And I think that sound is also characteristic of vinyl and I have no intention of adding a turntable no matter how good it sounds. While I was there I found myself wanting a dryer more clinical presentation but listening to my system just now there seems to be so much missing that was present in your system.
I've really been struggling to figure out how to characterize my experience and I think it is a little bit like the first time you taste a new flavor of food or wine. I don't even know how to evaluate its "goodness" because my palette, or in this case ear, is so uneducated. Your system is so radically different from anything I've heard before, even the other set of Moabs I heard, that I feel like I need to educate myself more about what I might have been hearing.
After my Moabs come, and I've had a chance to fine tune them in my system, I would be really interested to come back and give your system another listen if that is something you would be open to.
Also, that last track we listened to was by Jennifer Warnes? Do you remember the title of the album or song?
Thanks again for a wonderful and educational experience.
Best,
Paul That was Jennifer Warnes The Well, the limited edition 45. The Melody is probably the one contributing the least to what you heard. Nobody believes me when I say this, but what you heard, tweaks and mods are at least half of it, at the very least. Probably more like 60-70%. Nobody believes it. I know. Oh well. Its true. Take all that stuff out, go back to what everyone else has, you would not be hearing anything any different than you could hear a hundred other places. The plan if things work out is to upgrade to a Raven. Then when you come back and hear that you will maybe understand why I say the Melody is probably the one component holding the system back the most. Most people have the wrong ideas about components. They think they are supposed to sound good. In fact they are not supposed to sound like anything. That's what you heard: a whole lot of nothing. Nothing but what is on the record. Whatever that may be. When you asked what I would play to show off my system, that is why the funny look. The system isn't there to be shown off. The system is there to show off the recordings. The better it gets the more different recordings you have to hear to try and get a handle on it. What's truly amazing is as good as it is, there's still this endless list of things that can be done to make it even better. |
glupson-
"Remember where you read that concern first?"
the midrange/vocal presence is huge. Listening to them at your place I thought it might be too much but coming back home and listening to my 1.7’s and one subwoofer I found myself missing that big full round sound your system has.
While I was there I found myself wanting a dryer more clinical presentation but listening to my system just now there seems to be so much missing that was present in your system. The fundamental dishonesty of your selective quoting is outdone only by your eternal inability to ever say anything productive, helpful, or true. Which is why this is the first time in months, and the last time ever, you will get a response from me. You are twisting the words of an innocent and earnest audiophile just to attack me. You should be ashamed of yourself. Would be, if you knew enough to know the meaning of shame. Move on. Please. |
Reaching. Pathetic. Three people in two days and the verdict is:
Clearly, there is a massive, detailed soundstage. And the midrange/vocal presence is huge. coming back home and listening
to my 1.7's and one subwoofer I found myself missing that big full round
sound your system has. and
well thought out listening room.
The
imaging was so good that I felt like the vocalist was performing right
in front of me and that I could reach out and touch them.
and
As far as sound quality we are in total agreement. Your system is
fantastic. If it weren't for a two hour drive I would have let you keep
on spinning discs. and
My listening impression was all the detail and nuances were presented to
my ears in a most unique way. Unique to me because it was so far above
any system I had heard and
was most shocked at Fleetwood Macs "Landslide"
Hearing it so many
times in the past and then not recognizing the intro because of the
detailed soundstage.
To sum it up I was more than impressed. Anyone that can take advantage of Chuck's generosity should do so. So sorry, the guy you love to hate actually does have a system every bit as good as he's been driving you crazy saying it is. Totally get it. You are, in a word, butt-hurt.
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Darn!
Wish I would have said that.
And I wish people incapable of taking audio seriously would move along, please. There's plenty of material here for those more interested in learning than carping.
While I was there I found myself wanting a dryer more clinical
presentation but listening to my system just now there seems to be so
much missing that was present in your system.
I've really been
struggling to figure out how to characterize my experience and I think
it is a little bit like the first time you taste a new flavor of food or
wine. I don't even know how to evaluate its "goodness" because my
palette, or in this case ear, is so uneducated.
I can totally relate. Because back in the 90's I was hearing things I wasn't able to describe, or sometimes even recognize. There was a time I couldn't tell the difference between two very different DACs. Let alone evaluate which one was better. Then I would go home, and it was just like pinwa said, there seems to be so much missing that was present in these other systems. What a shame some not only can't relate, but instead take every chance to demean and belittle. If you get insulted, understand its because you earned it. Here's enthusiastic audiophiles, Deborah, Keith, and Paul, who you drag under the bus. Anything to get at me. Disgraceful.
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Yes. And that part about it being MY house, and MY system getting all the compliments, is what has them so butt-hurt.
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Thanks, Paul, that was beautiful. Love to have you back any time. Play the volume as low as you want. ;) ksnel331: Both Deborah and I asked Chuck a plethora a questions about his system and the tweaks he has made. He was gracious enough to answer all questions without making us feel foolish. He in fact admitted to his craziness about many of the questionable things he tried but the result is there. Deborah has a good understanding of the physics of electricity because she works in the field of Linear Accelerators and many things made a lot of sense. I don’t know why you would not at least try some of the easier things like cables off of the floor and springs for isolation.
I won’t be be able to do vinyl either but hope to get a great sound with digital.
I was hoping this forum would be more informative about people with Moabs or planning on Moabs and how we can get the most from them in our rooms. Thanks. Me too. There’s actually quite a few who’ve chimed in with their experience. Its just they get watered down or lost in having to filter through the others. There’s some really fascinating stuff we could demo but it takes time, and when you’re on a mission (evaluating to purchase) its a different situation. That’s why we only did the Cable Elevators. Those can be removed and replaced even while the music is playing- and the difference is big enough Deborah heard it even with her eyes closed. Shoulda done Active Shielding. That one’s huge! As for getting the most out of them, you’d be surprised how much difference even a fraction of an inch makes. One of the last things I did with placement was to toe them back in by 1/2". Meaning, the inside front corner stayed put while the inside back corner was moved 1/2" closer to the wall. This puts them right back to within about 1/8" of where they were originally, back when I was saying they would go right where the Talons had been. They started out with the same toe in. Then I toed them out too far. Then I toed them back in a little. Finally the other day I had enough and toed them the last half inch, almost all the way back to where they had been. The reason to demo is so you hear and understand this is really all personal preference. The difference that 1/2" makes is a stage with a little less width, a little more depth, and imaging that is just a bit more solidly 3D. Neither right nor wrong, just whatever you prefer. What you heard is simply what I prefer. That is all. To do this and do it right is a process. The distance of each of three corners of each speaker from the side and front walls are measured and adjusted to be precisely the same. Next a level is used and each speaker adjusted to be perfectly level side to side and front to back. I’m practiced at it to where this only takes about ten minutes. Still that’s ten minutes of concentrated effort where we’re not answering questions or listening to music. Besides, its something you will do yourself the first day you get yours. So really good experience to have but kind of a low priority at the time. Our listening room makes this sort of measurement setup work. Doesn’t work in every room. Rest assured there’s another method that does work everywhere. Used it at CES one year when this awful conference room had them stumped. That’s just one aspect of speaker setup. There’s others we talked about a bit when you were here. There’s lots, lots more. Wait till you have yours. You will see. |
Miller, what have you been listening to lately? Last night was Nanci Griffith Storms, Nancy Bryan Lay Me Down, and Jennifer Warnes The Well. But the other night Ellington Jazz Party was so compelling it led to Dick Hyman Swing Is Here and then Sinatra at the Sands. The last is one that’s been on the shelf a long time but not played in a long time because it was (back then) underwhelming, with Sinatra seemingly on a dark stage a mile away. Now though wow, spotlights, you are there, and man oh man if that isn’t the most absolutely compelling commanding performance we sure don’t know what it would be! Anyone wants to try and get how Sinatra got so big and famous just listen to this, the way the guy has such totally cool control while at the same time coming across as free and impromptu, all while doing a show he must have done a hundred times at least. Its no wonder it went on thinking maybe listen to a track or two and then, what the, end of the side??!?! Whoa! Another one that did that, recently realized Tchaikovsky is my favorite composer. Before that it was Mozart but now after Tchaikovsky he seems kinda formulaic. So went looking and scored a couple White Hot Stampers from Better-records.com and wow, same thing, side is done, 20 min seemed to go by in 5. There’s a bit where it must be just about the highest note on a violin, and he scales up to it, you absolutely cannot believe how crazy good it sounds! Mesmerizing! So then we got the 1812 White Hot, wow talk about rousing energy! The surprise here is side two, the March Slave, is every bit as good as the famous 1812! With cannon! And Church bells! The variety between recordings is huge. When Paul asked what I play to show the system off, we really don’t know any answer other than everything. Because quite honestly, the system is a chameleon, it sounds like whatever is on the platter. Sometimes like with Pink Floyd The Wall this is a total trip as its not just the sounds its the feeling of the space physically changing. The sound of the siren that morphs to the airplane dive bombing until suddenly there’s a freaking baby crying, man oh man you have got to experience that! Or Wish You Were Here, the elevator door opens and you FEEL the pressure change and FEEL there suddenly is this vast cavernous space. But as much as the incredible sounds impress that really is sort of a sideshow. What its really all about is the emotional connection with the music. That is what gets me carried away with Sinatra, or tearing up with the beauty of Warnes. That is why the first thing I always ask everyone is what kind of music do you like. Then I try my best to find something they will like. Not any one particular song. Nothing so simple as that. But something that will move them. That’s what its all about. |
Oh you have plenty to lose. Same as the others of your ilk: whatever shred of credibility you may still have left. Whatever feelings of accomplishment you’ve nurtured over the years. Can’t even pretend I’m a bad person, not with everyone saying how gracious and considerate and self-effacing I’ve been. All your feelings of superiority. Gone. Like tears in rain. Wow Miller, the intensity of jealousy from glupson, carp and others has hit new levels. Yes well it goes to show the wisdom of creating the Hateful 18 list, putting certain people on it, and putting them on permanent ignore. Because there is a point where a person can be so deranged that is all you can do. Live in a city like Seattle a while, you will see them. Standing on the sidewalk, yelling and gesturing, and if you don’t know it sometimes can seem like they’re having a conversation. Until you realize its all in their head. Or you make the mistake of trying to engage, because most people are, you know, people. But then the shock and horror hits, you realize your mistake, and you just can’t get away fast enough. Do this a few times and you learn to recognize crazy, avert your eyes, and never ever under any circumstances engage. From now on they are so dead to me they don’t even know. |
Rick, you know the physics, right? Sub placement with just one is extremely difficult bordering on the impossible because all you can do is move the lumpy bass around. Its better with two because where one is weak you can put the other to be strong there and smooth it out a bit. By the time you get to four each one in a different location each one can be turned down to where the lumps aren't even noticeable any more and at the same time each one fills in the weak spots of the others. The end result is it hardly matters where they go. There's people who have devoted hours to crawling around on the floor listening and locating their subs that way. What they wind up after all that work is hardly any different than just plopping one down sort of near each corner. Which is basically what is in the white paper by Geddes (or whoever it was, I can't keep em all straight) where he recommends they be placed near the walls and asymmetrically- ie different distances from the corners. This helps assure a more randomized mode distribution. Which is what I have. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 In short there is nothing to it. Just do it! |
That'll be awesome. The DBA concept is based on having a lot of different bass locations produce a lot of different modes that together average out. Both the Moab design and 4-10 design use woofers spaced very far apart. Not far relative to low bass wavelengths but still a good 4 feet apart. So one 4-10 with four 10" woofers will not be as good as four 10" subs like mine that can be spaced 10-15 feet apart. But a lot better than other subs. In terms of total energy it will be almost exactly what I have. But in terms of DBA, number of source locations, it will be a little less. So it will be real interesting as you go along to see how those two things compare. In any case, and any way you look at it, you are starting off with some awesome speakers!
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I've never bi-amped. Very simple reason. Speaker cable quality is huge. Huge. The difference between speaker cables $300 vs $600, or $2k vs $4k, is night and day. So the proposition with bi-amping is, the advantages are so awesome that you can buy another amp, buy another speaker cable, and this will be so awesome it will be better than putting that same money into just one really good cable.
And my question is, In what universe? Because while I have never heard what bi-amping can do, I have heard the difference between say my last two speaker cables, which were about $400 and $1200. And the difference is huge. Let's say I wanted to bi-amp. So I can buy another speaker cable, $400, and have $400 left over to buy another amp. The advantages of bi-amping are so awesome I can get better with a $400 amp? In what universe?
Sorry. I know this is yet another one where I am at odds with a lot of guys who will swear up and down it has to be better. Based on technical reasons, always. Also always without regard to cost. As if all that extra stuff is free. As if all it costs is the $50 bi-amp upcharge. As if- let's not forget- the jumper works as good as no jumper. That alone is reason enough not to do it.
In my universe, anyway.
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Even if it is free there is still no reason to do it. Least of all on Moabs. The crossover is located on a brace directly behind the lower woofer. Its right out in the open, so easily accessible I was able to stick my hand in through the lower port and take a picture.
So if ever you want to bi-amp, which is a really wasteful use of your audiophile dollar but for the sake of the argument let's assume you are "that guy", then you simply run the extra speaker cable in through the rear port and solder directly to the crossover. This for sure will be better than any terminals on the outside.
Until that day you use the normal high quality binding posts, one set, and never waste one minute worrying about the quality of the jumper, should I upgrade the jumper, how much is that jumper hurting things (because it is!) should I have spent even $50 on that (the answer is no) and on and on. Instead of worrying about that you will have the peace of mind of knowing you have all you need, and that if you ever do get a wild hare urge to bi-amp you will simply solder direct which is even better than if you'd paid for the extra binding posts and harmful jumper.
Thus this is about as no-brainer a no-brainer as it gets. |
You must be thinking of pictures 29 & 30. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 The upgraded X crossovers come on that MDF board. The original potted crossover is above. As pictured the speakers are laid down on their sides, with the base removed and laying at the bottom. The crossovers are still inside the speaker, it just doesn't look that way in the photo. Its a great idea, just way too much work even for me! Not that I might not get around to it some day.... More likely will try keeping it right where it is only mass loaded with a small Shelf and mounted on springs. |
Can’t wait to hear your reaction when you hear your Moabs.
Is this a great thread, or what?!😁 |
A bit OT but congrats David on your successful procedure. |
The sound from mine on the ugly prototype Spring Things is wonderful. Plan is to build the new modular and presentable Spring Things this weekend. Modular design to allow tuning options. Would try and describe but it was hard enough the last time and that one was simple compared to this. Heh. But the problem of free movement in all directions, the problem of axial twisting, I have solved all of that. Uh, IMMHO. So stay tuned.
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Almost forgot, someone said springs from below are unstable, the load should be suspended. Done! Oh, and its low profile, and designed to be super easy to make very small positioning adjustments. And damped. Yes damped, but in a way that interferes not at all with the spring. Freaking genius level work here. IMMHO, of course.
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The Spring Thing is so low profile there's only about 1/8" clearance with the carpet. Doesn't seem like much but its huge considering they move much less than 0.01" in use.
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Good Lord. Frequency is how fast. Amplitude is how much. Completely unrelated.
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Congrats! You will be one very happy man. Honestly think you will be shocked how much more dynamic, open and natural sounding they will be. Also way easier to drive with just about any amp. Could totally see those being forever speakers. Well done! |
Nice theory. Too bad its the exact opposite of what actually happens. We hear more detail, space, and air on springs. Not less. More. Back to the drawing board? Or keep tilting at windmills? |
Would be nice if someone would stop the shill shilling his so-called "products", and tell him to move along, please.
Seriously. Move along. Please.
Top of speaker to bottom of MTM array is 46". Why?
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Hilarious. I just had some friends over for dinner. They’ve been here and heard my system before, but not for years. Back then they were not much interested and this time was no different. Had to practically twist Marks arm to get him to sit down. After one cut of Jennifer Warnes The Well he’s like in a trance, says this is like a drug, Madelon you have to come hear this! Madelon is skeptical, until 4 minutes later she’s got the same kid in a candy store look on her face, waving her arms, can’t stop talking about how the guitar is RIGHT THERE!!!
Now Mark is really interested, picking out records. Played Bridge Over Troubled Water and from the first piano chord he perks up and leans forward and afterwards keeps saying its like a drug, we have to come over when we have more time to listen.
Then I watch this YouTube video where the very first moron basically says what did in fact just happen is impossible. Because according to this waste of space its all expectation bias and all you can do is go in circles.
Except I guess if you’re me. I must be the exception. Because my system for damn sure is not going in circles.
Probably because I stopped listening to waste of space morons years ago. Anyone serious about really getting somewhere do yourself a favor, first time anyone says double-blind write them off as clueless. Because they are.
(If another later speaker isn't useless let me know. I quit watching right after the first moron started blathering about steering and double blind blah blah blah.) |
Learning those terms, and others like them, is the most powerful knowledge there is. Its how I was able to buy all my components the last dozen years based entirely on reviews, and be super happy with every single purchase. I never pay any attention at all to any measurements, other than speaker sensitivity and cartridge output. Don't even really pay attention to amplifier power. Sorry, but all these other measurements are irrelevant, a distraction, and a waste of time. The only technical terms worth learning are the ones we use to describe what we hear. Our ears and brains are orders of magnitude more subtle and discerning than any measurement, and these terms of timbre, etc, are the language we use to talk about them.
Once you understand them well enough you will easily avoid a huge amount of mistakes, and make really good informed decisions. Notice for example there was zero doubt the Moabs would be a hit. Learn to do this and you are good to go. |
#MC I respect your thoughts on the terms. But someone like myself that doesn’t understand what the terms are but still enjoys music, naturally uses specs to make a decision.
Yeah, well all I can do is share the wisdom acquired at great time and trouble over nearly 50 years. Whether or not people want to take advantage of it is their own free choice. |
navyachts I thought this a forum was supposed to be about Tekton Moabs? Chuck Miller may be a little outspoken at times and you might not agree with his points of view but at least he’s contributing to what the thread was intended to be about. But there seems to be a few here that are offering up nothing but negativity and snide remarks. Mr. Miller is just trying to share his experience with his new speakers. I really don’t see the need for the constant personal attacks, be it through this (his) thread or others. Generally, MC keeps it on the rails and is willing to work with and help others, to share his knowledge, (if you agree with him or not). He does have a fine system which he likes to boast about and show off, rightfully so as he has put a lot of thought, work, effort, and time into it and he’s very proud of it. You may not like his point of view or his thoughts but at least he’s not personally attacking you as you do him. He does his best to ignore you all but you continue and relentlessly go after him, again, again and again.
What you say about him makes you no better than what you think of him. You offer up no sensible audio-related contributions to this thread only harsh, personal attacks. What has this to do with speakers? Do you have nothing better to do than sit at your computer all day criticizing people? If you find Chuck Miller so appalling why do you continue to follow his threads so closely? I would presume you have no audio equipment, if you do, when do you find time to listen to it? Lastly, just a quick question to Paul: Paul, did you ask MC to turn off his subs, or were you just being too polite? Rock-on Chuck...
Well said. Unfortunately you see how deranged and shameless they are. Any normal person after having been so eloquently put down might at least pause a moment and reconsider their obsessive hatred. Or at least try and stick to the subject. But not these guys. In fairness, reading grade school level kindergarten its doubtful they even know what you said. I'm not kidding. Some ways back I said. "I'm not saying their perfect" and then for the next three days they kept repeating that I said they are perfect. Even with the exact quote in front of them. So its not like we are talking about sane, normal people. Still, thanks. And just so you know, I get PM'd similar all the time. So, as Groundskeeper Carl in Caddyshack said, I got that going for me. For the Hateful 18: Move along. Please. |
That’s for sure. Tupu, the midrange magic, incredible detail, truth of timbre and dynamics gets even better with time. I took a break from all the constant tweaking and just sat back and enjoyed listening as things settle in. Last night Neil Diamond was so palpably there I had tears.
Unfortunately it will be a few days before I’m doing that again. Couldn’t catch my breath, went to urgent care, now admitted at Highline with pneumonia.
But hey, its all good. This way the Hateful 18 can continue to prove just how truly Hateful they are. And the good guys can continue to post and PM with uplifting comments and useful descriptions of these incredibly fine speakers, as they have been doing all along. |
For that kind of money you get Ulf's with all Be and it won't even be close, and you'll still have spent way less money. |
Working in health care I see every day how almost all MDs are little more than rules-followers. Very few actually follow any thought process. They even say, that's not our protocol. Which is fancy language for you have this so we give you that, never mind the reasons why. So they put me on expensive, risky, iffy remdesivir, and they will do an even more experimental transfusion. But a known cheap effective safe drug? That's not our protocol. Morons.
Fortunately millercarbon is no moron, and bought HCQ months ago, just in case. Wife brought it in, and so I'm able to get proper meds in spite of the docs.
Not finding any rubinal. Do you mean robinul?
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There's a lot of anger in Australia right now after having banned HCQ from a study that was completely debunked in the UK, where a doctor actually was using OD levels of HCQ in a study. It has been completely debunked and the doctor involved was found out. Timing in the use of this drug, according to the report is more important. The bans in Australia are expiring, and with the truth now uncovered, it seems it may become used in early stages of the viral infection?!
ALL the "studies" used to discredit HCQ are rigged one way or another. But I have neither the time nor the patience nor the energy to explain all this, certainly not to this crowd of know-it-alls. Good to know at least some in Aus are figuring it out. The gold standard treatment is 200 mg twice a day for 6 days, and taken with Azi and zinc. Mortality on this regimen is 30% lower than anything else. |
When you've been promised delivery in 7 to 10 days 7 to 10 times speed you're getting close. Its also normal to call several times, get no answer, or a machine, or a message that says lines are down- and also normal to get Eric in the shop, or driving to the cabinet maker, or for him to return a call that was just returned, then have to end the call right away saying I'll call back, then never get the call back. In other words yes of course they are having problems, also known as startup or growth, or in other words normal mayhem. Its rare to find more than one form of genius in any given individual. I'll take speaker designer genius over make the trains run on time genius any day.
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Great news. Imagine if everyone was like me, all logic and results oriented. Without all the emotionally immature people easily turned off by the least relevant things no telling how long I might have had to wait, or how much more it would cost. |
When I said half a dozen have asked you to move along, I was being kind. Here they are in their own words- and from just the first 39 pages. None of this is me, and there’s lot’s more pages of similar comments. I suggest you take them to heart, and move along, please. Do you also enjoy telling your friends that their pictures of their children are homely? What is the point of gratuitous ugliness? Don't like 'em, don't buy 'em, but why rain on anyone else's parade? It's unseemly.
It seems like the majority of your posts on this thread is defending your right to your opinion on the speakers. Point being, if the OP wanted comments on the looks of the speakers he just bought, that would be the subject of this thread. You certainly have the right to your opinion, however this might not be the thread to express it, hence the other comments too.
@ Glupson, you have time to post a response but not the time to read 5 or 6 pages? You don’t read many books do you? Sometimes those have hundreds of pages 😵. If you are more into looking at pictures, I’d point you to the virtual systems pages. Bubble gum for the brain.
@Millercarbon, Hopefully, eventually they’ll go away and the rest of Us can continue on with a good, positive discussion about the Moabs! The rest of us have enjoyed this thread, hence the length and replies you have received. I have never been so excited about someone else getting a pair of speakers.
Oh, and Glupson, I know your feelings got hurt when I called you out, so in typical troll fashion, go ahead and insult me now! I wouldn’t expect anything less from you.
Lol, some people just love to hate.What is it with all this hate.
Glupson, it’s starting to sound like you’ve reached a biased view. Seems current owners opinions are being thrown out as a viable source, so then your only other option for a positive view who have heard them in non owners, which then you praise their reasons for not purchasing.
Please get a life. Quit obsessing about someone else’s opinion, or what they post.
Must you derail this thread ??
You obviously are not a Tekton fan. We can see that . Please, LET IT GO... MAN !!!
The dickishness of some of the responses amazes.Glupson, not understanding your reference to that link you posted. Doesn’t seem to be relevant to this thread.
The degree of continued vindictiveness and snark is fascinating. What is the impetus?I find it difficult to post original threads because of all the attacks that seem to occur very frequently and it's becoming tedious. I like the forum for info I can obtain and use but I think I'm about done with this group. A lot of angry people here and I don't need them.You know tuberist, I agree with you. I don't remember this level of anger until recently.
Glupson, I believe you have proven beyond any doubt your obsession with both Miller and Tekton’s. You’ve mentioned you have no interest in these speakers, yet here you are, so either you lied, or you’re trolling.
I in no way agree with the object of your derision. You are continuously contributing to the train wreck you despise despite your stated desire not to do so. That is truly bizarre.
You post in threads that you’ve made it clear that you don’t care for the product, in this and other threads. Why not find something you actually agree with or like. I don’t go to threads about products I know I have zero interest in and start posting negatively about the op, or others who are having a convo that do have interest in the product. Glupson, in his own words: I have been beating this horse to death in this thread Yes. And don't we all know it. Move along. Please. |
