Yes we really did go shopping. And now back and my wife is saying dear can you put some music on? And leave the door open. That never happened before....
Okay so bad news first. Old Dominion called first thing, "I can be there in ten is that okay?" YES! But.. forgot to charge the GoPro. Then on the lift gate, cardboard got dinged all the way through. Uh oh. Driver was cool, but with him waiting I kind of rushed unpacking. So no video.
But happy to say it is a one man job. You do need a very high ceiling though, at least ten feet for the box to clear. Once in the room I tipped them up and eyeballed placement almost exactly where the Khorus had been. Measured from the wall with two corners exactly where the Khorus had been, the third different owing to the narrower cabinet, but toed in almost exactly the same as before. Inside of each pointed right at the top corner of the chair, slightly farther apart than my shoulders. After doing all this moving around was real happy to find both standing perfectly square and level. Woo-hoo!
All during the last of this setup the speakers were connected and the amp warming up. Now with everything positioned I put on the XLO CD demagnetizing tracks. Simple sweep tone and bass fade, yet it was a great first impression as the sweep was really clean and uniform.
The upgraded Cardas binding posts are seriously high quality, but so poorly marked I never would have seen the + without my headlamp. Even then the light had to be coming from the right angle. But what really got me was when I looked inside a port. Holy crap! It looks like some DIY science project! Inside my Khorus every wire was braided in geometric configuration, completely stuffed with foam and fill, and with separate compartments for the tweeter. Moab ports are huge and short giving a great view inside. Will be checking it out more carefully later but for now it looks like one big box, mostly empty with sparse fill along the sides, a few braces, and a slew of single wires running all over the place. Not twisted together, not braided, not parallel. Just each wire straight to wherever it needs to go. For a minute there I was like Oh crap Miller you've been had!
But only for a minute. Then the needle dropped on side one of Year of the Cat, Lord Granville comes on, and all is well.
Regular readers know I'm the guy who always warms and demagnetizes and sprays anti-static and even then uses this disposable copy of YOTC to warm things up. Because while my system is good enough to sound great stone cold, it sounds so much better warmed up and that's what I'm used to. So I was really, really happy to hear how good these brand new right out of the box speakers sounded with my system, not fully warmed up and after not being used a full two months. Amazing.
Halfway through side one there's a wood block I never heard sound anywhere near so good before. The percussive strike, sharp and fast, the sound of the block, and what's really amazing is this is halfway through the first side. By the end of side one the guitar solo is so strikingly beautiful its near tear inducing.
My wife comes in says, eyes wide, Dear! I put on Clare deLune the first track and the violins are incredible. She's in the chair, I'm leaned over my head inches behind hers and while its crazy good it does seem there's a bit more of a difference being outside the sweet spot than with the Khorus. Its all relative, of course- Moabs sound great everywhere.
The stage is as deep and wide as I've ever heard these recordings. Image placement is solid and precise, and they do disappear to a remarkable degree. Especially considering the HFT Speaker Kit isn't even on them yet!
Oh, and no subs either. Really, really good bass for no subs! Very even, balanced, and seems to go pretty deep too.
Oh. and have I mentioned ❤️💕❤️💕😍😂😂😂!
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As if I'd stoop to that level anyway.
Deutch Grammophon Mozart 20 & 12, Rudolph Serkin, Claudio Abbado.
Its amazing how good classical sounds on these things.
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The New Basement Tapes is a crap pressing and sort of good recording but I love the music especially as some of the singers have a wonderful emotive quality. Especially Marcus Mumford, who I never knew before Kansas City, where he puts so much feeling into it he wipes a tear away at the end of the video, and this comes right across through the Moabs and has me feeling the same way. Spanish Mary with Rhiannon Giddens is chock full of so many hidden wonders I'd need the laptop in the room to keep track.
Earth Wind and Fire Serpentine Fire is so freaking dynamic, its like fireworks left right and center and so much fun it has me laughing out loud. Guess enough time has gone by this music has gone from hip to cliche to camp and back to actually being able to enjoy it again. These are really fun speakers!
Tracy Chapman Talking About a Revolution guitar is so alive if I knew guitars better I would know the model. She is a bit further back, most of the stage on this one is a bit further back and deeper. Last Night etc is just a cappella, her voice is just perfect, and the room acoustic is there like never before. Fast means not just fast to start but fast to end, and get on to the next sonic event. So all kinds of details really shine.
This one has no bass so of course that's when I decide to turn on one of the subs. Just one. Same setting. Which being as these are a good 8dB more sensitive (although it sounds more like 10 than 8!) means equivalent of turning the subs down 8dB. Still its enough to improve the already excellent presentation.
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randym860- The biggest surprise to me was how dynamic they are at low volume. Even with just half a watt. Volume's barely cracked and its filling the room. Cranked up to quite loud levels is still way below what the Khorus used. Officially the Khorus were I think 90 dB, these are supposed to be 98, someone was quibbling about being less than that. Thing of it is though mere numbers do not convey what we are talking about here. How anyone hears these things and comes away any less than bowled over is beyond me. I mean I know how it happens but its not nice to say. |
Right you are randym860, absolutely. By all appearance they are absolute hype that cannot possibly work. Mass of tweeters, cheap MDF box, not even properly damped. Rats nest of wires. Damn drivers aren’t even flush mounted. Dude wraps some tape around the outside of the woofers so they don’t look like absolute crap sticking out there. Standard paint is merely okay. Routered corners. Nothing I couldn’t do myself.
Only thing is, I have actually done this stuff myself, just enough times to know how much work it is and how much you can spend and still not have what you could have bought for the same money and no trouble. People who follow me know I preach this all the time with DIY wire. Total waste. Because just like this, to think you are gonna luck out and do on one try what people have devoted DECADES of their LIVES to is beyond insane. It is ignorance and arrogance. On stilts.
Not every time of course. Markets full of mediocre crap. But not this. This is a HOME RUN! 😁😁😁😁 And not Billy Ball home run where you win by getting on base but Ken Griffey Jr home run where your first pitch in the majors sizzles off your bat on this impossibly flat arc right over the outfield fence. (A feat I happened to be sitting right behind home plate to see.)
Right now I am sitting at the table with salmon coming out of the oven and Mozart coming out of the Oppo which in spite of being digital the Moabs have Serkin & Co sounding exhilarating. And its digital! And I’m not even that into classical! But I am now! 😍🔈 |
Measurement kings...Don't even know why they're measuring, stuff. Yup. Mine is one of those systems where everything is so dialed in you can clearly hear it gets better and better each night as the night goes along. The improvement just during the first side each night is real obvious. Chris Brady noticed this, and that was years ago when it was nowhere near as resolving as now. Worth mentioning because as previously noted the Moabs did sound great right away and improved immensely the first few hours. Well my system had been completely off a full two months. The whole thing was cold as cold could be. Point being there's more than one thing burning in, warming up, equilibrating. Whatever you want to call it, its not just the Moabs, its happening throughout the whole system. Okay so last night everything was thoroughly warmed up. The Moabs might not quite be fully there but the system by now sure is and so last night was my first real chance to hear what these things can really do. Gerry Rafferty City to City was a nice warmup for the table. By Stealin' Time things were sounding really good. The 1970's were so rich with killer music talent there came a point one day we're in the Moscow Rosauer's and there's a clearance table full of records that didn't sell some marked down to 99 cents and I bet a friend I could just buy one at random and it will be good. So I found this one with a snake called Crawler and we never heard of it and it seemed a slam dunk crap buy so we bought it and it turned out to be pretty damn sweet and so that is how this utterly random 70's record came to be on my platter last night. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rxyg2cHQdUwJust want to be clear there's nothing special about this at all. Most special thing about it might even be how un-special it is. Every once in a while as the years go by it gets pulled out, every time expecting well this time its gonna sound dated, or the system will be revealing problems with the recording, or something like that. But it never happens. Enjoyed listening to this last night more than ever. Still, like I said, totally average. We're ready for more. Much more. While awaiting the Moabs I was able to score this White Hot Stamper https://www.better-records.com/product.aspx?pf_id=mozarstrin_2006On it goes. Holy crap! Mozart is a genius, Quartetto Italiano are masterful, the recording is to die for, and me and my wife are sitting there in the dark forced into this awful conundrum. Because on the one hand the music sounds so good you want to not move, not even breathe, so as to miss one micron of its awesomeness. But on the other hand the energy is so "there" its like you feel the exuberance of the musicians. I kept imagining Tom Hulce's Mozart cackling and laughing giddily while churning out the notes, paper flying, as fast as he can dip his quill. My foot is tapping, hands moving, just an amazing performance. This is something I haven't experienced since grade school. Teacher had a Seattle Symphony violinist come play for us. Right there in the classroom. Not 15 feet away. Symphony violin. Oh, I took band and orchestra in high school so heard a lot more of this. But never again a professional violinist playing a quality instrument at close range. Its not just the string you hear, let me tell you that! The whole body of the instrument resonates with a power you feel in your body. Its there at a concert- if you can get close enough. This recording being Quattro Italiano is just the four and so recorded close range, and with this White Hot Stamper and through the Moabs you feel it. All the incredible intensity, the ability to go from pianissimo to fff and back again so suddenly is captivating. Its all right there. Right scale, right tone, right everything. Easily the best classical I've ever heard on my system.
This post got me curious to check and look what I found! Tchaikovsky! https://www.better-records.com/product.aspx?pf_id=tchaivioli_mhs_2007 |
middlemass and viablex1- If you're ever gonna get anything out of reading reviews first learn how to read. If this is any example your reading comprehension sucks. If you actually believe what you posted then you must have skipped the next paragraph: Only thing is, I have actually done this stuff myself, just enough times to know how much work it is and how much you can spend and still not have what you could have bought for the same money and no trouble. People who follow me know I preach this all the time with DIY wire. Total waste. Because just like this, to think you are gonna luck out and do on one try what people have devoted DECADES of their LIVES to is beyond insane. It is ignorance and arrogance. On stilts. So what this is doing, is showing you completely misread the paragraph you quoted by failing to read and comprehend its meaning in light of the following paragraph. Pitcher of Pina colada, three bowls, and I can still write better than you with one hand tied behind my back. That whistle in Steve Miller's Jungle of Love is like some kind of George Luca special effect. Actually more like Luc Besson but I worry about name recognition. The subs are all on now. I tweaked the volume up just a tad. While higher than what they were this is still probably a good 6dB lower relative to Moab output. Still its enough to greatly improve the sense of envelopment and immersion. Even the mighty Moabs benefit from DBA. |
Probably shouldn’t post after hours of rum and weed but we only live once (as this particular system of memories anyway) so here we go. Moabs throw a spotlight on something I’ve been thinking about for a long time now. Recording is an art form every bit as rich and varied as cinema.
The difference is with cinema we revere the cinematographer and director for their talent in crafting a visual masterpiece. Not for accurately portraying on the big screen exactly what happened on set. See? We get all caught up in how we think things should be and fuss over that when we should be enjoying the music.
I was thinking of this going from Ghost of Tom Joad to Tap Root Manuscript to Mel Swings Schubert Alley to Brothers in Arms (45), Rhythm of the Saints, and then Planet of New Orleans. Such different recordings but each one really superb in its own right. People talk about speakers sounding good with this or that. These sound great with everything. Probably because they don’t sound. They transmit. What speakers are supposed to do. Transmit the signal. Not editorialize.
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Had to give Eric a call and let him know how happy he's made me with these awesome Moabs. Its true, he wanted to be a speaker builder from when he built his first speakers as a 14 year old kid. Played in band and wanted speakers that sounded like real music. (As opposed to speakers that sound like other speakers, which pretty much describes the whole speaker market today.)
Didn't want to say anything until I had his permission but he signed mine "Tekton Design Moab
Happy Listening Chuck
Eric Alexander
7/17/20"
Didn't mention earlier because if people see that they might request it and then I just made a lot of extra work for him. But he said he's happy to do it if someone wants it. Mine he did without being asked. Which is mega.
Okay now back to the Moabs! |
grannyring- Congrats on your new speakers! Tekton makes some world class sounding speakers for reasonable money. We Audiophiles all benefit greatly from companies like Tekton. No doubt many high quality and high priced competitors have taken notice and interest.
Thanks. That's all I'm saying. World class for reasonable money. What this really does is confirm what I have been saying about the technology and design approach Eric has is so powerful it allows him to "get away" with things like this. There is, as far as I can see, one small internal brace mounted crosswise, dead center on the tweeter and between the two rear ports. Right where you'd think it would be. There's also two braces per side, about 2" wide, glued to run vertically the full length of each side. There's a lot of visibility through the ports. I can even reach in and touch the tweeters! The wiring really is strange and a sight to see. They do look to be soldered, and the wiring pattern is complicated. You know those amp reviews where they show the inside, and everyone is all impressed with the neat and tidy routing? This ain't one of those reviews! Inside and out the Tektons scream "get the job done!" The job being top notch sound. This they deliver. In spades. Such a relief. There's just enough people out there dissing on them to have kept me wondering, and just a little bit nervous. I can see how its hard to believe someone saying these things sound as good as they do. For what they cost. For how they're built. For a lot of reasons. Oh well. They are in fact every bit as good as the most effusive praise out there. Anyone reading this who thinks such comments are over the top, all I can say, recalibrate your over the top meter. Please. Your comments regarding internal wiring and sparse damping material is so true. I have completely taken apart and upgraded several Tekton speakers ranging from the Double Impact to the Impact monitor for customers.
Excellent. If you don't mind, what approach did you take? The standard brace and damp it as much as possible? If you're doing it for money as a business I can understand not wanting to give away the farm. While they sound fantastic stock it is certainly true that upgrades take these wonderful designs up another level in sound quality. However, it is a ton of work after they are built!
Yes but from what I am able to see these are just about made to be modded. The inside is wide open spaces, with great big woofer holes at each end. Heck I can even stick my arm in through the ports! Can't see the crossover but Eric says its mounted down low which makes sense that's near the speaker terminals and would provide the shortest total wiring. Lotta work but mostly because there's so many drives. Good access though. I am gonna have a field day in a couple weeks! |
What a climactic moment! I'd take scotch whisky over rum, but otherwise reading these first impressions is inspiring. I hope I feel half this excited when I buy my next speakers. Congratulations, MC, and thank you for bringing such fantastic, genuine passion to this forum! Thanks, and if you want to feel half as excited there's a lot out there will do that. If you want to feel every bit as excited as me then its a pretty good bet you'll need Tektons. Not necessarily these. Far as I can tell there's a whole slew of em capable of putting a great big smile on your face. Its freaking amazing how good these things are. I've had a pretty good run lately, the last 2 years, buying Koetsu Black Goldline, Herron VTPH2A, SR CTS and Euphoria, and DIY DBA. Not a one of them auditioned. All based entirely on studying on-line. Every one of them exceeded expectations, surprising me with just how much performance there is to be had for not that much money. But none more so than this. The Moabs are fantastic. |
grannyring- - I treated all internal connections with Perfect Path Audio paste, but not sure that can be had anymore.
Yes, and I still have some, and some Mats. Experimenting with the Khorus with strips of cut up Mats wrapped around and run alongside wires yielded huge improvement. Much better than simply slapping one on the side of the speaker, which itself is a big improvement. Now this is really a lot of work and expense if you purchase great parts. Not a must with the already great Moab speaker, but I can honestly say the upgrades were worth it for me and others. His designs are so special that they are worth or worthy of special treatments as outlined above. He has done something very special with these designs. He sure has. Its unfortunate so many are misled by superficial similarities and appearance into thinking this is all the same old when really its all the other speakers that are the same old. Eric has the first new thing in speakers since, well I don't know when. I only share this you as I know you are tweaker and if at some point in the years to come you want to play, then have at it! Stock his designs are magical and perform at a very high level. Every other weekend for me is a 4 day weekend. Week after next these should be fully burned in and stable. So possibly as early as two weeks I will be getting in there. Tweaks will be very similar to yours, just different materials, like Mats and fO.q tape. |
baranyi- MC, I am thrilled you love the speakers!! I thought they sounded great at Teajay’s for ridiculous money. The other speaker that many should also consider is the Perfect SET which is 1/2 a Moab but still a very large speaker. It is around 2K and works with flea powered amps. It is crazy good for 2K. Teajay uses those for his upstairs system. While the Ulfs are a monolith the Moabs are still gigantic!
The wiring discussion reminds me of the Supratek preamp wiring controversy. That preamp is still a contender even with its Spaghetti wiring. Secondly, Teckton obviously value engineers these speakers to give the highest sound per dollar. It reminds me of the Magnepan crowd who like to take fuses out and change crossovers, use different wiring, etc. They could make the Magnepans better at a far higher cost but far fewer would buy them. There is no doubt that someone like Grannyring (who if I recall also had Suprateks) could modify these for higher performance but at a different price structure if he was a manufacturer.
Thanks. For the first time in my life I'm starting with speakers with near perfect performance and virtually zero flaws. The best a component can do is nothing, and these do it better than any. All my other speakers had obvious known flaws. I heard them, so there goes the "must audition" trope. They were bought known flaws and all simply because I preferred their balance of known flaws better than the others. Moabs are different in that there's virtually no flaws or weaknesses. That's not to say they're perfect. What I mean is there are no flaws to be corrected. Its all down to extracting the most from a superb design. Vibration control, electrical, mahgister's embeddings. I knew these speakers were destined to be tweaked to a new level. Just never imagined the baseline would be so high. It will be interesting to see Eric's reaction when he hears them where they'll be in a few months. |
Duke knows speakers inside and out, and he was surprised at the quality (and cost) of the woofers Eric uses in the Moab. |
Eric is pretty adamant that speakers today are made first and foremost to look good. I'm thankful to him not just for my speakers, but for his devotion getting the most performance to the most people for the lowest cost.
And now, back to the Moabs.
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I'm so clever, you guys don't even know. Stuck my hand in there and took this pic. Oh wait, that's right, this site uses last millennium tech. No pics. Okay eventually will get new system pics up on my page. Eventually. For now I stuck my hand in the port and got a pretty darn nice picture of the crossover.
The crossover is mounted on a cross brace fit directly behind the lower woofer. Could hardly be more accessible for modding. Remove the woofer, there it is. Lots of sweet juicy targets for tuning this baby up!
The crossover network uses two air core inductors, one solid core, two Mundorf MCap EVO Aluminum Oil caps, one 25uf cap of some kind, and four power resistors. One of the first things I said to Eric about upgrades, I know there's parts out there you love but won't use because of price. So forget price. Use whatever you love, and just charge me accordingly. He said this is the one he uses because its a very nice cap.
One thing I have learned with this stuff, you can waste an awful lot of time trying to reinvent the wheel. I paid Michael Spallone to do his beautiful mod of my Synergistic MPCs because while I could do it with ease, I haven't tried all the different diodes and caps to learn which is best. He has. So I take advantage of that expertise and pay him to do it. Ditto Eric. This is a pretty sweet little point to point wired crossover I'm looking at.
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Corner Audio, Portland, OR, the owner has a really nice selection of tube gear. Its where I found my first true high end speakers, Lineaum Model 10. Anyway this guy sees I'm tuned in and puts on Harry Belafonte at Carnegie Hall. I wind up buying a copy and having it is at first a kind of an audiophile thing. But this is 30 years ago. As the years go by the timeless quality of the music and Belafontes performance sinks in, and as the system improves the quality of the recording shines through, and so this is one with some history.
Never has it sounded better. Even augmented with DBA its evident the bass has a wonderful fulness to it. Its hard to be sure with some music but with this beautifully recorded string bass its clear. Eric has nailed the bass balance. Not bloated. Not tight. Just nice and full the way bass should be.
Belafonte voice is spot on. The midrange is just beautiful. Eric was telling me today how when it comes to measurements the tweeter is the best of all the drivers. He didn't mean Moab. He meant across the board. Which makes sense. I mean, just look at them. No matter what tweeter you choose, the ratio of magnet and motor to coil and cone is just insane with a tweeter. With the ones in the Moab the motors are way bigger than the dome. Imagine a woofer with a motor way bigger than the cone. No way. Even if you did, mass and kinetic energy (acceleration) are quadratic not linear. Do the math, the power ratio with a tweeter is off the carts compared to a midrange or woofer.
Anyway, whatever the technical reasons, Belafonte never sounded better. The string bass on Cotton Fields is awesome. The guitar, bongos, all his accompaniment that used to be kind of down there somewhere in the mix is now up there right on stage with him where it should be. Have I mentioned lately how I love these speakers? And still hardly any hours on em!
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Its already explained in the thread, with reference to the youtube video, that in order for the array to work Eric creates matched sets of tweeters- both per array and per matched set of speakers. Not to be snarky but so much for reading the thread.
Its clear there's a small group for whom information is not information but chinks in armor to be attacked. Reality check: its just information. Nobody knows how to build the perfect speaker. Even when someone gets close nobody really knows for certain why. All we have are examples to learn from. Provided of course we are willing to learn.
Somebody earlier wanted words of wisdom. There you go.
Can we get real for a minute here? Almost always with speakers we go through a phase where its like yeah it does this good but what about that and oh I guess I can live with that until eventually the speaker sounds good and we (hopefully) get comfortable and maybe even come to love it. Someone else mentioned taking some time to get their mind around it, and almost wanting to return them. I can't see that at all. The Moabs were superb right out of the box and now after barely one full day are even more superb. If they are going to get even better that will be something to hear.
Anyway, main thing, setup was a breeze, I haven't felt the need to tweak position, and the sound is right at home and continues to amaze. |
mahgister- Controlling the noise floor of the electrical grid is more powerful effects on s.Q. Its awesome. Unbelievable. I am working on embedding every inch of wire from the meter to the voice coils. |
rbstehno- MC- you have to be writing while your drinking again. You claim the speakers are perfect, you are so wrong.
What Millercarbon actually said: Moabs are different in that there's virtually no flaws or weaknesses. That's not to say they're perfect.
Drinking aside someone is "so wrong." And it sure ain't me. |
We need details on mods and videos. That will help. The three most effective mods are fO.q tape, TC and eMats. When a friend said try them on speaker cables and on the sides of speakers that got me thinking. The Mats are similar to refrigerator magnets in that they can be cut up into whatever size pieces you want. Also there's a label on each side. So what I did, cut a Mat lengthwise, then score each piece not cutting all the way through. Fold into a tube, place over speaker cable, secure with tape or zip tie. Pretty amazing. The most effective locations seem to be where higher voltages are rapidly changing. That's based on the most effective locations so far being speaker cables, drivers, and internal speaker wires, breaker panels and power transformers. Low voltage locations like tone arm, phono stage don't seem to be quite so powerful an effect. Although its a pretty big effect even there, just not quite so astounding. My objectivity meter is calibrated to wife not in room not paying attention. Wife meter never reads improvement when no improvement was made. Wife meter never even moves off zero for moderate improvement. Wife meter readings of dear what did you do indicate profound improvement. Wife meter the other day was OMG dear I could hear from the first note! That's pegged, to where you hear it click hitting the stop and worry it might have been overloaded. There is only one higher reading, that being hit yesterday. I didn't really think it could be any better but it is. For you measurebators out there, that's what we here at the millercarbon ranch call the money shot. That's why I resurrected that old post. We're kind of past the point of talking about more and more detail. Big dynamic improvements came first. Then detail. But the problem with detail, everyone thinks they know what it is. Dynamics too, to a certain extent. With both we think more equals louder. But dynamics is a range not an absolute. The dynamic range is not how loud something will play, but the range between the loudest and the quietest. Dynamic range can increase by lowering the noise level. Likewise, detail can improve by the absence of obscuring noise. Its unbelievable how much of this there is! Power cords, fuses, tape, elevators, dressing/routing cables, static, on and on. A million little things obscure detail. Increased detail is NOT obvious it is by definition subtle. Detailing a car begins with polish, clay, and wax. It ends with a Q-tip going around every screw and crevice one inch at a time. Not even an ordinary round Q-tip either, but one of those special pointy deals. That's what we're talking about here. Details that make you gape. Details that make you feel the need for a better word than details to describe them. Anyway, enough of this, I got the system warmed up now. Later. |
grannyring- The parts and labor percentage cost to selling price is very high. The simple fact is it is highest ratio found in the marketplace by a long shot. The retail price of the all parts alone, excluding labor , is darn close to the selling price. A DIYer would not save money building a set for themselves even it they purchased the parts on sale. It may well cost more. That’s remarkable. The labor time needed to build and paint the cab and assemble this point to wired speaker is also substantial. Wiring/soldering up the 34 drivers to the crossover takes time folks. The crossover parts I measured were all matched to important performance tolerances. What about the time to cut out all the driver holes and install the 34 drivers. How these can possibly sell so affordably is astounding! Clearly a top candidate for best value in all of high end audio history. Clearly.
Every audiophile here should easily see this fact and be impressed. Tekton is most assuredly disrupting the speaker industry and is an innovative tour de force when judged by any reasonable standard. They are setting the stage for more affordable, world class sounding high end audio for all of us. Yes, Tekton is at this point in time, helping change an industry for the good! I am thankful for what they are doing. The competition is taking note and will work harder at offering better price to performance value. They will have to in order to stay viable as the “cheese is moving” because of companies like Tekton and others. So true. Its really not even close. The Ulf reviewer who said 'if this doesn't satisfy be prepared to spend $100k to do better' people think he was exaggerating. I think he was being kind. Its funny because one of the very first things I can remember learning about speakers, way back as a kid in the 70's, is that with speakers there's size, efficiency, and range. If you want both high efficiency and deep bass then it has to be big. Period. Sometimes though the facts get lost in the marketing and this would seem to be one of those times. I was so brainwashed into how speakers "had to be" that I was truly surprised to find a great big empty space inside mine. When now that I think about it a great big empty space is exactly what you need. D'oh! But then on top of that Eric figured out the midrange array, and the importance of low mass and low transverse friction, and how to incorporate all that into a low cost package. The Moabs are awesome. Absolutely awesome. They seem to have needed only a handful of hours to burn in. Or at any rate to get to where they sound like they're burned in. That's the thing about burn-in, you never really know its done until after its been done a while, you realize its not changing any more. We will see. Phusis, the real magic is the array. The MTM array of the top models covers from about 270Hz on up. That's everything from the upper bass to the highest treble, all covered by the same driver with the same superb response. This is probably the #1 reason why these things sound so stupendously right, and image so well. There's always a tradeoff and with these its size. But forget room size, look at speed, he's got so many Tekton per square foot there's hardly any room left to sit and hear em!😂 Yet they sound great. So you just have to be able to tolerate a towering monolith. |
Which they would be, seeing as the difference between them is only about 3dB which is easily within the margin of error of how the meter is held if using a meter, or your exact speaker/listener/room setup if you're going by ear. 3dB is double the amp power, because power is logarithmic. But in terms of how it actually sounds its really not much at all.
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Here we are three days in, speakers right where I put them, haven't felt the slightest need to tweak them. The stage with DBA is as deep and enveloping as recordings allow. Late night listening fully warmed up with clean power is always the best. This is only night three of that and already its at the point you can just relax and enjoy it. All the really positive review comments are true, including the lack of fatigue and ability to sound really good at lots of different volume levels. I'm listening more and longer than ever.
All my other speakers had some volume level they would open up and shine. These have a much wider useful range. They also create the eerie feeling of where's the sound coming from? Of course they disappear from the sweet spot. But its really something to be walking around the room, hear the music, look at these monsters and have to tell yourself that's where its coming from.
Satchmo Plays King Oliver has a real live Louis Armstrong right there in the room. Right size, right sound. Clarinet has this wonderful warm round quality, yet you can easily hear the reed. Linda Ronstadt Falling In Love Again has a music box that is so compelling you can practically hear the crank turning, her voice clear and present and free of strain and glare. Doug MacLeod Serious Doin' Woman is a completely different recording, his guitar and voice realistically life size. Its easy listening to this to think its the top, but the top spot is all Hot Stampers and Nilsson Schmilsson is one of the best. The differences between these pressings is night and day with the Moabs. Yes the other stuff sounds wonderful. The Hot Stampers though are another level. Just like the Moabs.
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A guy with a perfectly normal looking (to me) Samoan name says: MC,
Congrats on your purchase and receipt of the Moabs! I was bracing myself for the ", but, ", but it didn't happen. Another glowing review! Mine are apparently moving along nicely, hopefully no more than another three to four weeks to go before mine arrive.
Regards,
T Thanks and yes quite happy to report the "but" never happened. Indeed quite the opposite. I was dreading they'd be a chore to tweak but instead it looks like made to order for tweakery! I think I read that you integrated a couple of subs with them. Was that out of real need, or just for shitz-n-gigglez? In your room how low do the Moabs extend before the 3-6db rolloff? The Moabs bass is simply wonderful. Its full and round, not lean but also not bloated. There's a character to the sound of a string bass, I think it comes from the body of the instrument resonating, and these capture that better than anything I've ever heard. This includes million dollar Wilsons. (Sorry. But when I hear a good sounding Wilson I will let you know.) But there simply is a limit to what can be done with bass with just two sources. The Moabs by themselves are fine, but with the DBA there is a sense of envelopment. The stage extends, you feel there's no end to it, and your room and everything in it disappears. Without DBA you are listening to a really nice stereo. With DBA you are in the venue. Even with the DBA the bass character of the Moabs is evident. I had the DBA more than a year. I know what it does. Its clear the Moabs are hugely better in the bass than the Khorus. Also remember the Moabs are some 8dB more efficient than the speakers the subs were dialed in for. Starting from that low level I'm now up 2 to 3dB but that's still a good 5-6 dB down. I'm slowly increasing and already close to being there. |
grannyring-
Yes from what I can see they are wired something like that. There's things planned for wires but replacing them is pretty low down the list. I can do better than most wire without having to replace them at all.
mahgister-
Right they are a stone bargain any way you look at it. Not to mention none of the speakers people think compete are anywhere as easy to drive. 50 watt KT88 tube amp, barely crack the volume and its pleasant listening, by 10 o'clock we're at good loud rock out level, where before it was more like 2 o'clock. Just hugely easy to drive!
Been running them on CD to augment the hours and so guessing maybe as much as 20 hours on them now. 10-15 for sure. Really sounding nice. Just a little smoother, little less grain, typical burn-in. There's a lot of different parts. This can sometimes create a situation where one part burns in a different rate than another, and for a while the thing sounds funny, then goes back in line and sounds better than ever. The Herron did that a couple times. These so far are just gradually getting ever so slightly better and better.
b_limo -
You're welcome. My pleasure. There's so many reasonably priced things like SR Orange Fuses that make so much improvement its hard to believe. Its basically the embeddings mahgister talks about, same exact idea, only mahgister has taken the time to figure out how to get the same sort of results for a lot less money by DIY experimentation.
For anyone who likes to tweak these speakers are the mother lode!
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nwres- At what point should a designer stop tweaking and sell speakers? I see Eric as the kind of inventor that has to stop himself from endless possible improvements and finalize a design. And Tekton wants to sell speakers, any of the models. They are trying to reach the widest possible base. I believe that for every $ extra that goes into the cost is one more potential customer lost. It seems to me that Eric saves his lessons leaned in one design and rolls it into the next. New better models, same sound for less = sales. Exactly. Only when it comes to selling in the market Eric is no different than anyone else: They all have to make at least enough profit to keep on making more stuff. So they all become expert at drawing the line. Knowing when to stop. When good enough is good enough, and so lets stop developing and start making. You got it. Well done. My comments are useful information, plain and simple. How people use this information, well that is entirely up to them. Glad to see you're getting something out of it. |
That's one helluva fine pre you built there grannyring. For a minute there I was thinking you had superhuman woodworking skills too, but at least you had to farm that part out. Still, quite the project. Very thorough attention to detail. Vibration control, even down to the laminated chassis. Sweet. So folks follow the link, read, and learn https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8787You seem to love the caps you put in there. What about the Mundorf Aluminum in Oil caps in the Moab? Any experience with those? |
grannyring, there are people here who for whatever reason it serves no interest to engage. Some time after starting this thread on May 22nd I had the bright idea to simply ignore them. So you will notice certain people no matter what they say get no response from me. Its not my job to psychoanalyze, or salve their fragile ego, or explain again and again what has been explained to death simply because they just don't get it. You, and everyone else, feel free to engage them if you must. But you see where it leads. In your own words: "Just not fun or productive." For example, like thecarpathian just pointed out, look at this quote of what I actually said: Moabs are different in that there's virtually no flaws or weaknesses. That's not to say they're perfect. What I mean is there are no flaws to be corrected. This they turn completely around into me saying they ARE perfect. You cannot make this stuff up! Then even after they've been corrected they keep right on at it. Take my advice or leave it, but until someone comes up with a better plan mine is to ignore these people completely in the hope they simply go away and leave us alone to get down to the serious business of making already great gear sound even better. Because what really is fun and productive is sharing ideas on how to make an already awesome component even more awesome. I've gotten some great ones here, and looking to get some more. In two weeks I'll have enough free time to complete Moab Mod Phase One: Electrical Embeddings. While in there for that I will recon the interior and get some measurements for Phase Two: Internal Vibration Embeddings. Then finally Phase Three: External Vibration Embeddings. Already have some great new ideas thanks to rixthetrick. Basically DIY versions of what grannyring has done. Phase One I have pretty well under control. Phase Two is primarily controlling vibration on the crossover board. Ideas? |
Didn't get lucky, T. Put the time in. Years ago experimented exhaustively with ears and meters and everything in an all out attempt to dial in speaker location in this room. Then once I knew for certain where one set was best the next set tried some variations but they wound up in the same place. Went through that a few more times but there comes a point you either learn or you don't. People can say I got lucky. A better interpretation is I am smart enough to know if it ain't broke don't fix it.
If you have OC panels my advice is try the raw panels for placement and size before cutting frames and fabric. Its a lot easier that way.
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Now this is probably good a time as any to point out my Moab results totally vindicates my approach to system building. As a few of the less helpful commenters have pointed out my prior speakers frequency response was anything but flat. If I had followed the accepted wisdom as repeated ad nauseam around here I would have asked around for what to get to match and everyone would have suggested some band aid or other to cover up the faults with the speakers.
Instead what I did was what I always do, look for the best performance value, period. Without regard to whatever weaknesses (or strengths) of my speakers, or anything else for that matter. Just in the last two years that's Herron, Koetsu, Synergistic, DBA, and now Moab. All these were selected without regard for anything I currently have. System matching simply did not ever come into consideration. Might as well have been a blank slate for each of them. Only thing I ever look at is how do people say it sounds.
Okay- exceptions: With phono cartridges I look at output. With phono stages I look at gain. With speakers I look at sensitivity. With all of these I look at them as filters. Crude but useful filters. Once past the filters its listening impressions all the way.
The Khorus midrange was a bit reticent. Imagine if I had taken the customary approach and with all those other components instead of looking for the best "period" had looked for the best "match". If I had done that then now I would have great speakers doing nothing but revealing all the band-aids slapped on over the years.
Which honestly when I look at how prevalent that advice is, how many people actually believe it, and then look at how many people are constantly trading components never finding that right balance, it all makes sense.
I know it doesn't make me popular. Too freaking bad. It sure makes me one happy audiophile.
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speedbump6- Miller, your approach makes a lot of sense. Indeed it does. Thanks. That's why I've been doing it for like 30 years, and why its the approach espoused here from day one. Now I have a question. Was just thinking about this. I’ll be using a Bryston 14bsst2 amp for my Ulfers, and two separate 7 channel 300 watt per channel, all channels driven amps for the rest of speakers. I am wondering if I should add another Bryston for the moabs, since those are 600 watt @8 ohms amps, to balance the fronts and rears, and both sets of speakers are able to handle the higher wattage. Also since the tektons are rated at 4 ohms while the rest of the surrounds and atmos speakers are rated at 8. Supposedly the amps can handle the mix, but was wondering if it would be worthwhile to go ahead and separate them. The short answer: no, because surrounds never get to much more than a fraction the volume of the fronts. The long answer: I was just listening to Peter Gabriel In Your Eyes at a volume level on the amp barely 12 o'clock, a "normal loud" level for demos and stuff with the Khorus, several clicks below full loud rock out level. Sorry but I am not gonna drag out the meter, just trust me when I say its good and loud. So just now I'm way below that on the amp but way above that on the sound level in the room. The Moabs are so clear and effortless even at this high level there's just no sense of strain or glare and its not even the least big fatiguing. It is however LOUD! Percussive peaks are so viscerally powerful it has my brain going, "Uh, wait a minute- I know we like this but, uh, what about our ears?" And the ears are like, "Yeah no big but if he keeps it up we're gonna be ringing him up a long term reminder, if you get my drift." And so we the millerbrainear collective agree to finish the song and then turn it down. That's just two Moabs. You add in two Ulfs and a Center. I do not think power will be a problem for you. |
For the anecdote, i choose my 3 basic components, speakers, amplifier,
and dac with a careful study for one thousand hours( around 1 hour of
reading by day for 5 years) and i never look back....It was fun reading
and part of this hobby.... :) Yes and your "anecdote" is exactly what I do with everything. Its even described in detail earlier in this thread. When done right it works so well that in more than a dozen years and about as many components I have not been disappointed even once. And not because I am easily satisfied, that's for sure! But neither do I spend a lot of time second-guessing myself.
The 3 embeddings of a system in our own house only can gives to it his
real potential, it is also valid for parts of the audio system, like
speakers....
This is so true. I only wish more people would get it. When they don't, the improvement they leave on the table is unbelievable. Oh well. Their loss. Not ours. Its too bad its so hard to explain. My hunch is its a lot to do with electron spin and flow. Its not only electric current that's electrons, its everything. Not only in the wires either but in the fields around the wires as well. Wish you were here in the states mahgister we would hook you up.
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The sum total of these parts is indeed a great sounding loudspeaker. I'm listening to Roxy Music Avalon and its like the music is being performed in a cave. A cavern. A vast empty black space. Reverberations trail off into darkness. Only the music lights the space, sometimes like fireworks. Remarkable stuff. |
jayctoy- MC have you tried the MOAB on classical? Yes, Clare de Lune was one of the first sides to go on. The Moab renders violin so good its made classical captivating. Massed strings now sound like what it is, a whole bunch of individual violins. Almost like you can pick out each one. Solo violin is electric. Like Eric says, there's electricity in the air. There is. For real. Classical is another one where you know he got the bass right because you get just the right vibe from the reverb in the hall. Where the instruments are placed, how deep and wide, is all down to the recording. The Moabs don't make anything any bigger, or smaller, than it is. I do get the impression their height contributes to the effect of scale. They don't make small scale sound big, but when the music does scale up boy do they ever deliver! I have been jumping all over the place throwing everything at them and have yet to find anything they don't do well. |
T, acoustics is an art. You kind of have to be there, hear the room, and speakers, and know what balance you want. Its real easy to over-do it on absorption and make the room too dead. First reflection for example can be handled with something as small as 12" dia panel, or a diffuser, or even something like a painting or panel hung at an angle. Anything to redirect, scatter, or absorb. Doesn't all have to be absorb. Better in fact if its not. Also first reflections aren't even that big a deal if the speakers are out several feet, enough so the first reflection is delayed a good 5ms or more. There's more than one way to skin that cat. roxy54- I look at it as the best of both worlds. Some will buy the speakers as is and be very happy with the great sound and value for money, and leave it at that. Others, like Miller, will take that basic well designed platform and raise it to a higher level through refinements. The tough part, which is the original design and crossover implementation has been done for you.
I agree with you speedbump6. Its really amazing, this is the first time with speakers with no real flaws or problems to try and ameliorate. Years ago I hardly had any idea what to do or how to go about it. Take a few apart, mod a few crossovers, try some stuff, now I have a lot of great ideas. Not hunches or guesses either but stuff proven to work. Eric really did a great job with these. Its like buying a new 911: awesome right off the floor, now watch me tweak that PASM....whoa! Okay. Fine. Great. But usually speakers are so hard to work on. First they try and make em look cool, which usually means lots of trim covering up screws so its a challenge even to figure out how to get in there. No such problem here. Then the cabs tend to be small and braced with chambers, so everything's all crammed in tight spaces. Here you look right in and there it is. Crossover mounted right out in the open, don't even have to take anything apart. Could hardly be easier. What looks to be the hardest part so far, there's just a lot of drivers! I've ordered 3 packs of fO.q tape. |
I wonder why the XO is at 5K for the tweet? Why not 6 or 7 or ? As Eric explained to me, if the center to center distance of the tweeters is less than one wavelength then the waves will sum together as one. This is why there's no comb filter. This is why the imaging is so good. The distance between his tweeters is less than a wavelength at the frequency they operate at. Is that correct? Let's try it and see: http://www.1728.org/freqwavf.htmPlug in the numbers, 5kHz wavelength is 2.7" which I haven't measured but looks to me to be less than the center to center spacing between tweeters in the array. So by crossing over and having just the one tweeter handle that it avoids all those problems. If they were crossed over higher, at 7kHz wavelength is 1.9" and you're gonna be running into problems. Now what does it say on the Moab page? Let's check and see, https://www.tektondesign.com/moab.html ahh yes there it is, "
solidly grounded in electro-acoustical physics". Sho nuff.
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They just can't. Look. Its like this. Say you stick your hand in a cage and the tiger bites it. Do you get mad at the tiger? Why? Is it not in his nature to bite? So there's no animosity. But do you keep sticking your hand in the cage? Not if you're smart you don't. So you can wonder all you want about why some people are the way they are. But for God's sake please stop sticking your hand in the cage.
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raysmtb1-
Now that we all know that Eric is following along, I would like to state
for the record that I’ll be leaving my new Moabs alone (they sound
amazing as they are) They sure do! Now with probably 20 hours they are a bit smoother and fuller but more in the sense of refinement than any real change in character. They really are like Eric says great right out of the box. |
I'm considering doing something like that myself. DIY, of course. If POC works then I would do the Moabs, their crossovers, all 5 subs, and eventually maybe even my turntable. Depending how effective it is of course. Ideally this would be combined with a mass loading/damping system to help control resonance. This all falls under mahgister's embeddings, vibration.
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dmaddox77, I'm agnostic as to which sub is used. My view is REL is as good as any- as long as you use four. And if you do use four then it hardly matters if its REL or any other. Now in terms of doing the best you can for the money with a DBA, its probably four 4-10s and one or two Dayton SA-1000 sub amps. That would be about $4k altogether, and as Duke says grounds for divorce. But probably worth it. |
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mahgister-
Very good Hi-Fi is way less costlier than most think, and upgrading
anything before embedding it rightfully is non sense waste of money... This is why I waited so long before upgrading the Khorus. By then the Khorus had been "upgraded" with vibration control with fO.q tape in place of all the drivers gaskets, as well as stuck to the drivers on the inside. All internal wires, crossover, and drivers were coated with TC, and most of the wires and drivers wrapped with Mats. People can think whatever they want, the fact is these made a big enough improvement my wife noticed without me even saying anything. Not subtle or even debatable, just huge obvious improvement. So much so I am on record in this very thread saying that considering all of that I would be happy if the Moabs started out pretty close to where the Khorus left off. Because, like you have been saying, its almost always better to tweak what you have than buy another component. Totally true. Almost always. Happy to say this is not one of those times. There's aspects to the Moab performance that did not quite touch the fully tweaked Khorus. In all other respects however it towers above. But certain electrical embeddings are able to remove a layer of glare that it did not even seem was there before. The sound becomes slightly more liquid, natural and 3D. Last night I was able to reach in through the port and attach a small piece of one of the Mats and tape an eCard to the tweeter. The Moabs were already close enough that this tiny little tweak brought them right up to where I remember the Khorus being. If not more. Probably more. Which is amazing. Because this is only a tiny fraction of what was in the Khorus. Barely scratched the surface and already gone beyond.
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That's why I use Quad ESL57s. I'd love to try the SET15 but.. Like Billy says they are fast like a stat. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RxRTFx6Cd0&t=338s He's talking about his Double Impacts but its due to the MTM array, which the Moabs have more of, so.... If its low power you're concerned about I wouldn't be. My room is big, I listen pretty loud, and can't imagine why anyone wouldn't be happy with 20 or so good tube watts. When I was looking all the comments like 'comes alive with high power amps' had me concerned. Except it seemed all these comments were talking about high power solid state amps. Which in my book says more about SS watts not being equal to tube watts. Which I'm sure we both know is the case. These speakers prove it. 50 watts, and I don't need half of em. Because: tubes. The SET15 does have great reviews but seems more specialized towards flea watt amps so I would talk to Eric about it if you're truly interested. |
Now with more time on the Moabs, its like going from my old 911SC to a new 911. At first its all massive horsepower and handling. But you get used to the power and the longer you drive the more its the incredible refinement and composure that impresses. What hits me now is the natural effortlessness of it all. Everything is there, its just not hitting you over the head with it. Its just there. Now with more hours, probably about 20-30, I've gone back and played a few sides that were used earlier. Its this sense of ease and refinement that comes through more than anything. Lost on the River: The New Basement Tapes isn't that great a recording (and even worse pressing) but the music is, and Marcus Mumford's singing on Kansas City is beautifully expressive, even better now than before. But what really gets me is Jim James incredibly distorted guitar solo. Almost unlistenable, it sounds so bad that the first few times I heard it I was sure it was just the crappy pressing. Because no way anyone actually wants to sound like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-X3hdFWmerQListening last night though I was surprised to finally actually hear and get what he's doing! No its not Mark Knopfler, but the Moabs are letting me hear the string tone the Khorus, even with all its Mats and TC, left buried behind the distortion. Before it sounded like almost pure distortion. Now its more like music, with a shall we say heavy accent. Probably because they are so blazing fast, accurate, and neutral. Crackles and pops- whether Jim James amp distortion or record groove noise by the way- come and go, and immediately the music is restored. Doesn't "sound fast" you just know it has to be fast to sound like that. Whatever you call it, I'm loving it! |
Not yet. Will be going in there about a week from now and taking pics so should have a major system update coming after that.
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Given my experience, I’m actually quite happy to suggest that you don’t have to spend 10-15K, or more, to finalize a super satisfying, even thrilling experience... Yup. |
For the record... the Moab officially contains over 426" (over 35 feet) in length of internal bracing - it is very well constructed and contrary to a few AG posters here it is actually internally braced - to the tune of 35.5 feet worth.
The Moab has garnered three 2020 product of the year type awards. The Moab and the patented technology that drives it stands on its own merits and does in-fact go toe-to-toe with models costing 10x more - often even measures better than they do too. I’ve witnessed this personally through careful auditioning of our competitor’s rooms and setups while attending hi-fi shows. I do see how the Moab as we offer it could easily ruffle the feathers of some upper-end persnickety audiophile types.
Eric Alexander - audio designer Right. Peer in a port and tell people what I see and instead of "well that's interesting" people completely make stuff up. Just to argue I guess. They do love to argue. And take things personally. Like little children. Unable to think of anyone or anything but themselves. The Moabds are indeed really well built. They would have to be, as by definition in audio how well something is built is determined by how good it sounds- and Moabs sound spectacularly good! Right out of the box! That is one thing that comes through loud and clear in this review, and that would also appear to be one thing certain people absolutely cannot stand. They just aren't built in a way that would make them cost $40k. Or more. Which would be fine. They would still beat and out sell even as pretty little Faberge egg museum pieces. Its just a lot less of us working stiffs would be able to afford them. Which is another factor in upending the apple cart- you're just not supposed to be able to get performance like this through the mail, but only after paying honor and big fat fees to some snooty high end dealer who will come and set them up for you. Speaking of setup, toed them out a bit more last night. Now focused about 3 feet behind my head. Imaging is just as focused as before but now the sound opens up a shade and the stage actually seems a bit more coherent L/R, a thing I would not have thought possible, it was already so good! |
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tektondesign: Great to hear! What’s great to hear Eric are your speakers. Sorry if I matter of factly describe something and some people deliberately misconstrue for no good reason. As if there ever could be a good reason to deliberately misconstrue. Yet they do. A sad fact of life around here. Matter of fact my own personal list of posters so bad they are on permanent ignore is up to 17. But just so you know there’s another list with another 17, all very much enjoying their Tektons, most of them owning Moabs, plus a few Ulfs, DIs or others, and quite a few of them repeat upgrade type buyers. And that’s just this one thread. The Facebook Owners Group is many times bigger and even more enthusiastic. The numbers speak for themselves. Part of my research is looking to the used market. Because if it really is good then people hang onto them, and when they do come up used they aren’t discounted much and get snapped up quickly. Since I only select the really good stuff this is almost always the case. Which it was this time. Not only me, another one here does the same thing, bought new because they just aren’t coming up for sale used. This is the real world: fussy audiophiles put down their hard earned cash and are satisfied. More than satisfied. This makes some people jealous, frustrated, and even sometimes proves them wrong. So yeah they can talk the talk. Just remember, only you can walk the walk. |
Oh yeah, I am having fun and enjoying the heck out of 'em! Also thoroughly enjoying tweaking anyone and everyone thin-skinned, regimented, and otherwise eminently tweakable. Would do even more but when the flame-throwers are oblivious to having been roasted to Hiroshima dust it gets tiresome and pathetic and where's the sport in that?
Anyone thinks there's some kind of required order or time line to go from new to dialed in: wonderful. Glad it works for you. Was a time I had to play the same stupid track over and over trying to hear a difference. Maybe one day they'll get beyond it like I did. Maybe not. Whatever. Don't care. Not my system- not my problem! Meanwhile, back at the MC Ranch we just keep taking good and really good and sometimes like this really crazy good and making it even better. On my timeline of availability, desire, and ability - and no one else's.
Some do learn from this. I know. I get PMs. Probably more of them would comment out in the open were it not for the awful reception they get. What kind of person gets told to their face to just go away, and not by just one but by several, and for very good and valid reasons, and then persists? Not a normal sort of person, that's for sure.
Move on. Please.
listening99, only thing you left out, is if they think its such an important discussion to have then why not start their own thread on that very subject? They could then have all the space and the time in the world to delineate their key points, expand on their ideas, maybe even debate and defend their different points of view. If they really were serious about it that is what they would do. Same as I started this thread because I really was serious about trying to compile a lot of useful information and ideas in one place.
That's what they would do too. If they really did have any useful information or ideas to share. |
