Excellent. Appreciate any unpacking tips you can provide. Listening impressions too, for sure. When were yours ordered?
Tekton Design Moab
Ordered a pair just now. In Dark Gray, to which Tammy immediately said, "Oh the Charcoal is beautiful!" Charcoal sounds better than Dark Gray (even though we are talking about the same color!) so Charcoal it is!
My beloved Talon Khorus do still sound awfully good. It will be interesting to see how the Moabs stock out of the box compare with these tweaked and modded warhorses. Both the strength, and the weakness, of the Khorus is using the 10" woofer to cover so much midrange. Its a strength because it makes for a very smooth and cohesive sound. But its a weakness because its asking a lot of such a large driver to go so high. Talon makes up for it with their isobaric design. Mounted inside and directly behind the woofer is another identical driver facing the opposite direction. The idea is this relieves the front facing driver of having to compress the air inside the cabinet. This does allow for a much faster response, and is a big reason for the wonderful music the Khorus produces.
I have a feeling however it is no match for Eric Alexander's ultra-low mass driver array solution. Only one way to know for sure. So we will just have to see!
https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367
My beloved Talon Khorus do still sound awfully good. It will be interesting to see how the Moabs stock out of the box compare with these tweaked and modded warhorses. Both the strength, and the weakness, of the Khorus is using the 10" woofer to cover so much midrange. Its a strength because it makes for a very smooth and cohesive sound. But its a weakness because its asking a lot of such a large driver to go so high. Talon makes up for it with their isobaric design. Mounted inside and directly behind the woofer is another identical driver facing the opposite direction. The idea is this relieves the front facing driver of having to compress the air inside the cabinet. This does allow for a much faster response, and is a big reason for the wonderful music the Khorus produces.
I have a feeling however it is no match for Eric Alexander's ultra-low mass driver array solution. Only one way to know for sure. So we will just have to see!
https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367
Showing 50 responses by millercarbon
I knew from comments to expect at least a month. When Tammy told me to expect about a month I didn't say anything, even though it seemed awfully optimistic. Some businesses are closed but others like Tekton are getting slammed with orders from people stuck at home getting fat UI checks and $1200 per from IRS. My first table was a Basis with a Graham arm. The dealer took my money and then turns out didn't have the arm and it was weeks with him telling me at one point I should be lucky to get one. I said well when I get one I will but I don't have one that's the problem!! Grand Seiko Spring Drive, beautiful watch, worth every penny, #64 of 200, but waited three months just to get an extra link. These are the bigger companies. My experience has been micro niche market products are not just sitting around waiting for orders. |
While most specs are largely a waste of time, that does not mean we can't learn anything from them. Always keep an open mind! The one thing we can say for sure about audio is there is not one thing we can say for sure about audio. So I went looking and look what I found: https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/loudspeaker-measurement-standard/sensitivity Which is truly amazing because a) Floyd Toole: and b) Tekton Moab. Readers of this thread will know. Its been covered multiple times. The tweeter array covers this same range! The full range none other than Floyd Toole has identified as covering the most significant frequencies in music! Thanks, glupson. Wouldn't have found that without the tip. |
randym860- I own a pair of moab’s. They are incredible speakers they have very good dynamics even at any volume. Congratulations! You must be very happy. Your comment mirrors others who have said they don’t need to be turned up loud to sound good. I have a hunch this has something to do with their incredibly fast and detailed dynamics. But whatever the reason the fact remains a lot are hearing it, and that’s what counts. I also have an svs sb16 ultra that does help a little at very low volume but once you start turning it up the moab’s have plenty of low end and the sub is too much. Very common. There’s even a technical explanation for it- equal loudness contours. Do a search, study the graphs. What they are saying, we do not hear frequencies equally across the range. Especially at the lowest frequencies, they have to be quite loud to even register at all. But then once they do cross that threshold then even a little bit louder sounds a lot louder. That is what the contour lines bunching together is telling us. What this means in practical terms is if you set your subs to sound perfect at one volume level, then when you turn the volume down they will not be loud enough- but when you turn the volume up they will be too loud. This is why the loudness control used to be so common, and its also why its such a challenge to get the bass dialed in. The only real solution would be a variable level that adjusts automatically to your custom spec. Okay, I know, dream on. The compromise I went for is to take my time, make very small (tiny, near inaudible) adjustments very gradually. We’re talking over a period of weeks here. Because it takes time to relax and listen to different recordings and at usual listening volume levels. This last is crucial because what you think is the perfect level changes with volume. The result I came up with, its perfect at my usual critical listening level. There’s a bit more at high rock out levels, which is fine. You kind of want more then anyway. Not a lot more, just enough. There’s a bit less at lower levels, but then it doesn’t matter as much anyway. You can see how pointless it would be to try and accomplish this with meters. The meters register the same dB change regardless of volume. Meters will get you flat but cannot make the judgment call you can of balancing for overall satisfaction. Thanks for bringing this up. It will add to the usefulness of this thread when my Moabs come and we go about the process of getting them dialed in. |
For instance, have you ever read Floyd Toole, or seen him speak on this subject, in which he adduces many scientific studies that have correlated various speaker measurements that help predict listener preferences with a high degree of accuracy? Yes. I have. Have you ever heard that correlate does not mean cause? |
Time alignment is one of those things that the more I learn the more it sounds to me like word salad gobbledygook. At least as far as we're concerned. There may well be some special situations where it makes sense between say designers talking at a highly technical level. In general parlance though its just another fancy sounding term to throw around that in reality carries about as much meaning as PRAT. Like many misleading concepts though there is a grain of truth that keeps them hanging around. Early first reflections for example will interfere with imaging. We even have experiments showing there is a window of something like 3ms to 5 ms within which our brains get confused about where a sound came from. Less than that its a discrete location- sounds like it came from the wall. Within 3 to 5 ms it competes with the stereo image and ruins imaging. More than that and its heard as ambience and we like it. That's just one example. There's lots of others. When I talked with Keith Herron about his phono stage he gave a lot of credit to timing. But he could never explain it to me without getting bogged down in (to me) incomprehensible Fourrier transform equations talk. Which is what I mean about it maybe being meaningful when used among professionals. For us though, as used by every audiophile I can remember, its absolute PRAT garbage. If there was any truth to it then all the Tekton speakers would be incapable of throwing a decent sound stage- and the very best Tekton like Ulfberht would be the absolute worst. Instead of the best. Also don't forget the very best bass you can get is by putting subs all over the room- and placed randomly and asymmetrically to boot! The exact opposite of "time alignment". Clearly you cannot do this with tweeters. Clearly you can with subs. So what we can get away with varies tremendously depending on the frequency we are talking about. Something almost always totally lost when people are talking about time alignment. |
oldhvymec sent me a PM got me to thinking and guess what Dave? I was right! Absofreaking nailed it! Just got off the phone with Eric. Caught him driving to the cabinet shop so we really had the chance to talk for once. Turns out he knows my area, comes up here, might even get him to drop by some time. Anyway, here's some of what we talked about. The following applies directly to the Moab and Ulfberht, and a lot of it is me putting Eric's ideas into my words, bouncing them off Eric and back and forth until I get it down and we're on the same page. So these are my words. I didn't record the conversation, didn't even take notes. But pretty sure we are all on the same page. There's 15 tweeters in the Moab. But only the one in the center is crossed over high like a true tweeter. It has to be, because at high frequency the wavelength is so short relative to the driver you can tell where its coming from. If all 15 were crossed over as tweeters it would be as if the sound was coming from that whole big area and that would ruin imaging. The 14 tweeters in the two tweeter arrays above and below handle midrange. At these frequencies the wavelength is long enough its as if those two arrays are one single driver. There is a technical explanation for this, it happens at (I think he said) at a distance 1.5 times the width of the driver/array. Whatever. Point is, from any distance where we would be listening from its as if its one driver not 14. Also notice the arrays are vertical and symmetrical with the tweeter. This I believe he said he got from Dunlavy. Whatever. Point is, combine the two ideas. The tweeter is one. The top and bottom arrays are as one midrange. The arrays and the tweeter are symmetrical and within the wavelength range to sound as one. This is in effect a coaxial driver. The woofers, same thing. Identical drivers, tuned identically. I mention this because Dave got me thinking about it looking at the ports and they don't look symmetrical with respect to the cabinet, but Eric said its all internally calculated volume. They look physically far apart. But at the frequency range they operate the wavelength is so long they sound like one. This explains why everyone hears these as being exceptionally seamless and integrated, the opposite of what one would think looking at all those drivers. Because the way they are laid out the whole thing functions as one great big coaxial driver. That's just one part of what we talked about. Everything that goes in there, the guy has listened to a whole bunch of caps, has some Mundorf aluminum oil he really likes, and some Jupiter but that calls for a little re-engineering as he said. But this post is long enough already. |
speedbump6: Miller that has always been my understanding from having read what’s been posted online and in interviews with Eric over the years. Yes its probably not anything new. In fact its really like I said up front just confirming with Eric what I already thought was going on. But that's really the whole point: confirmed with Eric. Nice and concise and in one place, on the Moab thread where it belongs. |
if understood properly. What I already said. There may well be some special situations where it makes sense between say designers talking at a highly technical level. And even gave an example. When I talked with Keith Herron about his phono stage he gave a lot of credit to timing. But he could never explain it to me without getting bogged down in (to me) incomprehensible Fourrier transform equations talk. Which is what I mean about it maybe being meaningful when used among professionals.As for me, I'm still trying to think of a time any normal audiophile used the term in a way any more useful than PRAT. |
Who wouldn't given the attention of close to 550 posts (and speedily counting) in less than a month over a pair of speakers you're buying and haven't even received yet? It's an interesting phenomena, I'd say - one that at its core seems to gain traction given some interesting design choices (evolutionary rather than revolutionary), sheer girth and a reasonable price. Hype as well, and likely not least. Is there even a rebellious act behind this aimed at the established high-end arena and its elevated prices? I guess with air travel so hard these days its inevitable some resort to flights of fantasy. Still, "rebellious"! Millercarbon! Hmmm: The James Dean of audio. I kind of like that. And he even drove a Porsche! Sweet! Seriously, this is meant to fill a need. There's plenty of reviews of listening impressions. Some also mention build quality, design philosophy, company history, things like that. Every once in a while there's comments about packing, unpacking, setting up, burning in, etc. But its pretty hit or miss, the info scattered around so you have to search and search and puzzle it all together. I used to think it was dumb and never even had my system pics posted. Until someone asked and then once I did it, lo, people actually care and learn something from it. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 Not everyone. Some. Those who don't.... Conversely we're some that with our choices in the audio reproduction field will see others if not most give no bloody f*ck about what we're doing, and yet we're genuinely invested in our endeavor to see it come to fruition as well. Nobody ever said you weren't. I wonder what this thread will turn into once the speakers are delivered to millercarbon :-) What it was from the beginning: an extremely detailed review and analysis of the Tekton Moab speakers. |
This is all covered above but it's been a while.... The sound characteristic right out of the box was dynamic, clean and clear, and balanced. They did loosen up and improve, sounding even more natural and with an even greater sense of ease. But really, within a few days it was like they were completely broken in. They did improve, but the main thing is how impressive they are right out of the box. These are not speakers you need to run and run and run and never be sure if they're done. Was listening last night, and every night it's the same thing, just unbelievably good midrange. You seem to be unable to get past your own mental mind block. I recommend grilles, so you don't have to cope with the mind block of lots of tweeters producing such a beautifully seamless, focused sound stage. I’m still considering a pair, but don’t want bright in your face treble. If these had bright in your face treble they would have gone back or been sold long ago. That is a real peeve of mine, the way the vast majority of audiophiles seem to want to know when every little bit of spittle hits the microphone. No idea what note a singer is singing, but you can feel each spittle launch off her teeth. I am not a spittle-counter. I want to enjoy the music. That calls for a warm natural sound, the way actual instruments sound, not actual instruments hyped up on audiophile steroids. But hey, don't take my word for it. Read the comments on my system page. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 One of my favorites is the guy who was wishing for a leaner more analytical sound while he was here- until he got back home and found he was missing a lot of the music and longing for what he heard at my place. From my Moabs. Just amazing speakers. Are they prone to tipping from the height of them? Not at all. The way I always move big heavy speakers like this is to tip them over to their natural balance point and then "walk" them one corner at a time. That is how I move into position. That is how I move onto spring platforms like Townshend Podiums. By far the easiest safest way for one man to move something like this. When doing this you will be surprised how far off vertical they tip just getting to the balance point. To where they can be balanced easily with one hand. Where they will tip over and fall is even further. Look how many people are using them on springs! They move almost zero on springs by the way. To tip one over, even on springs, you would have to put some real effort into it. Bottom line it seems to me you are inventing and imagining problems that do not exist. That there is zero evidence for. I can explain anything to anyone willing to listen. But if your mind is made up they are bright and harsh and diffuse and falling over left and right, well these are all the furthest things from the truth. But if your mind is made up then none of that matters. That is where the expression comes from by the way, mind over matter. |
All anyone can ever say is their humble opinion. No matter how vociferous, eloquent, or accredited by appeal to authority still in every case all they’re saying is what they’re saying. That’s just a fact, which yes saying "that’s just a fact" is itself an opinion. That’s all any of us has. Even if we measure something as rigorously and objectively as humanly possible, all those terms themselves are mere opinion. If there’s anything science and history proves beyond a shadow of a doubt its that however dead certain we may be of something today, our understanding can be completely different tomorrow. Therefore, logically, the only thing IMHO can accomplish is to show the reader the person using it doesn’t understand any of this, and more likely than not is using it to signal his virtue and let one and all know how much better he is than the rest of us. Mission accomplished. |
Another one of these giddy Tekton fan boy videos. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDe03qevYiM |
Excellent! Thanks! The Talon Khorus are about two feet shorter but about as heavy as Moabs. Talon shipped Khorus in crates with hard styrofoam. Crates might seem more impressive but crates encourage forklifts and that might have something to do with the first two pairs being damaged in shipping. Not tiny blemish damage either, we're talking cracked wood. I'm pretty good with a hand truck but will probably appreciate some help all the same. This is one of those things like mounting a cartridge- nothing really all that hard except for it being so precious, valuable, and unfamiliar. Being able to read all the steps ahead of time at least makes it not quite so unfamiliar. Thanks again! |
Its what I heard from others, only a lot more detailed. Always assumed that after the top half was lifted off they were laid down on a side and then the bottom lifted so they are upside down and the top half can be lifted off and the spikes attached. It just seemed logical, but now I know for sure. Pretty sure the only way to get images onto this site is on your systems page. Mine will have a whole bunch of them added when the Moabs come. People will freak. And I don't just mean over the speakers. Maybe make one of those "unboxing" videos. Really drive some people crazy. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 |
speedbump6: Miller, maybe one video can just be the salivating and drooling at the sight of them. Lol Actually the famous eyelids strapped open scene in A Clockwork Orange, if you look close Kubrick inserted images of Tekton speakers and that is really what broke Alex in the end. What’s funny is my wife, a classically trained Russian arts major, she’s fine with them. Actually wants me to incorporate some of their shape and color design elements into the room. Well I’m thinking diffusion panels but don’t want the usual blocks of wood industrial unimaginative GIK look or feel. She had some great ideas. Won’t happen overnight but we will get there. Then last night I’m talking to the only woman audiophile I know and not much of a reaction until she heard "Tekton Moab" and then blurted out, "Oh those are sexy as hell!" So there is that. |
Can PRAT be measured, yes it can.Oh, please. There’s a reason I picked PRAT to pick on and its because PRAT is way up near the top of nonsensical audiophile terms. PRAT is an acronym: Pace, Rhythm, And Timing. Pace is the rate at which something happens. You run a 4 minute pace. He’s on pace to win. Rhythm is a repeating pattern. Rhythm is a metronome. Timing is accuracy. Timing by Omega. Put it all together and PRAT is a really precise metronome tick-tock, tick-tock. Only thing is, at least with the metronome we know what event it is that we’re talking about. Tick-tock, tick-tock. That’s it. What event is it we’re talking about with PRAT? Oh sure everyone guesses it has something to do with the leading edges of transients maintaining their relationship with fundamentals and harmonics. I guess. You may guess different. Your guess is as good as mine. That’s the problem. We can’t even agree on what it is we’re talking about. PRAT is gobbledygook. Sorry. But it is. |
I am truly amazed that anyone these days can believe that a non scientific approach to loudspeaker manufacture, that by not knowing what to measure, not know what physical attributes (found in measurement) combined together are going to make for a superior design. Ahh! I see! And where’d you get that from, grasshopper? Not from me, that’s for sure! Lotta people make the same mistake. Read for what they already think instead of what is actually said. All the measurements I’ve been talking about are from the point of view of us audiophiles. For us measurements are mostly a huge waste of time. If you go through my posts and read what I’ve actually said you will see exactly this distinction being made. Even in this thread you can scroll up and see where I said timing may have real meaning in some specific cases between people talking technical design. Of course measurements and a scientific approach matter in design! I just built my own DBA and spent a fair chunk of time going over volume, port diameter and length, because of course these things matter - in design. Eric has said he does a huge amount of his design work on software, tweaks and tunes on software, which is of course entirely measurement and engineering driven. Even Eric however, when it came to me asking about the difference between the Moab and Ulf tweeters he said its a better tweeter. But when he tried to say how cut himself off and said its not obvious. Then you might not be able to hear a difference. Then, "but its better." What he did not say was It has better impulse response, is .5dB flatter, or anything like that. So even in the realm of designers hearing rules. That’s all. |
Where's the people complaining about shills when you need one? Just so happens a “lady” friend who happens to be an “audiophile” too thinks the tektons are sexy looking!! Is she also “blind”?The "lady" was in fact Krissy Tetrault, who if anyone saw the earlier post I mistakenly said Mrock after the late Tim. Regardless, she did in fact say Tekton Moabs are 'sexy as hell". |
His friend has them, yes. And he’s modding his friends x-overs. Okay. Fine. Crossovers are not that complex, the mods he is talking about, swapping caps, etc, unless he is redesigning crossovers its literally minutes. Or if he is redesigning then I would think he would be saying that. He also says, "redoing his Xover for him which will reap over 90% the benifit" which who knows what that even means- except that he hasn't done it yet and so how does he even know? But whatever. Point is he claims to have heard the drivers aren’t as good as some others. Since Tekton uses their drivers in a unique array the only way to know this is to have swapped drivers and heard the difference. Instead he’s comparing tweeters to tweeters when that’s not how they’re used. The tweeter array in the Moab is the equivalent of the midrange in the Wilson Sophia. I see no indication he’s even aware of this crucial design difference. He’s doing everything he can to give the impression he knows what he’s talking about. Color me skeptical. |
Well said. Totally agree. Am on record many times having told such people If you say you can't hear it, I totally believe you can't hear it. If you can, great. Just don't try and tell me I need to prove to your satisfaction what I myself know I hear. For the same reason I tell people if you can hear a difference and its worth it to you and you want to do it then do it. But if you can't or don't want to that is equally cool because you can save yourself a lot of money that way. Its actually quite inconvenient and expensive all the stuff we put ourselves through. We who can hear. We who do care. They should be happy, to get off so easy. But no. It would seem they are perpetually sour and miserable. And you know what they say, misery loves company. Maybe that's why they work at it so hard, to make everyone around them as miserable as they are? |
Seems you did. Try reading the whole paragraph:
Point is he claims to have heard the drivers aren’t as good as some others. Since Tekton uses their drivers in a unique array the only way to know this is to have swapped drivers and heard the difference. Instead he’s comparing tweeters to tweeters when that’s not how they’re used. The tweeter array in the Moab is the equivalent of the midrange in the Wilson Sophia. I see no indication he’s even aware of this crucial design difference. |
This is very similar to the situation with another one people find hard to understand, DBA. Its very hard to see how four small cheap subs can provide far better bass than one or even two that are a whole lot bigger, better, more powerful, you name it. Its true, and everyone who actually bothers to try it not only agrees but is surprised just how much better it is. But a lot of people for whatever reason have a hard time getting their mind around it. Of course the quality of the tweeter makes a difference. Of course a better tweeter is better. To think for even one instant I don’t know that- well then why did I pay to have the tweeter upgrade?? This is just as true for the DBA, by the way. Did the same and bought four better 10" woofers than Duke uses in his Swarm. Duke himself said mine will kick butt. No one doubts driver quality makes a difference. But Duke and I, we are comparing apples to apples. Four to four. Not fourteen to one. The point is driver quality does not make enough difference to overcome the advantages inherent in the method. The use of many subs is so inherently better than one its very hard for any one to give as good bass, almost regardless of how good a driver it is. Driver to driver is just not a valid comparison. They’re not even remotely the same driver. The driver in the Wilson is one large midrange. The midrange driver in the Moab is an array of 14 much smaller drivers. How can you even try and compare the tens of grams mass of the Wilson driver to the tenths of a gram mass of the Tekton? You can’t. Yet that’s what you’re trying to do. One more thing. I could not care less if someone prefers the sound of another speaker. Could not care less. People like what they like. Don’t even need a reason. BUT if someone is going to try and make up a reason, well reasons are not feelings. Feelings can be anything. Reasons need to make sense. Its two very different things. Don’t like it? Fine. Wonderful. Be my guest. For the following reason- not so fast. Now you need to make sense. That's all I'm saying. Not that one is better or worse. Just if you're gonna give me a reason, have it make sense. Please. |
Basically, yes, in terms of functionality its a 3-way. Single tweeter, two 7 tweeter arrays that function as one 9" midrange, and two 12" woofers. The idea is the advantages of the tweeter array are so great they allow affordable off the shelf components to outperform even a much more expensive purpose-built midrange. The questions you're asking are exactly why I'm having my upgrades done by Eric. There's tweaks I will definitely be doing. Known tweaks, massive improvement. But I'm a low-hanging fruit kind of guy who has experienced first hand the things that can happen with even a seemingly simple DIY tweeter upgrade- even when the designer sells you the tweeter and gives you the crossover circuit. One tweeter. I'm gonna try 15? No, thanks. |
You remind me of this one recalcitrant student driver back in my PCA driving instructor days. Time and again I would point out his errors, but he was so sure he knew everything there was nothing more to learn. Finally braking for 2 I knew that was it, braced my feet, held the door, and was ready so that as the car spun around at 90 mph I was able to tell him what to do to avoid destroying his engine. "Clutch. Brake." In your case I am just about ready to keep my mouth shut and watch you crash and burn. At the pace you are going, people already can see you’re on some kind of personal vendetta, it should not take long. One last try. The idea of being able to achieve greater performance from a part simply by using it in a better way is not giddy, its grounded. It was in fact the first thing I learned about speakers way back in 1980! Roger Sanders had a transmission line design for a 10" woofer in Speaker Builder magazine. I built the transmission line. Which at the time, 1980, seemed even more far out than this Tekton tweeter array. But just as with the tweeter array once I put in the time to understand the theory it made enough sense to me to give it a try. The 10" woofer came out of a JBL L25. In the L25 the bass it put out was okay. But the bass response of that same 10" woofer in the transmission line cabinet was out of this world! It was night and day. No comparison. None of my friends back then had ever heard such smooth deep bass, including a friend who had built some monster 15" speakers. One last comment. Mentioned this before. You seem not to be able to comprehend the written word. Let me help with an example, the exact same sentence you quoted: " The idea is the advantages of the tweeter array are so great they allow affordable off the shelf components to outperform even a much more expensive purpose-built midrange." So my question to you is, did I say the advantages of the tweeter array are so great? No. Read it again. What I said is, "The IDEA IS..." In other words that is the idea- the principle, the theory. Did not say it was true or not. Simply related that is the principle on which they are made. At least until you are able to comprehend that much I really do wish you would refrain from hounding me. |
Right. Distributed Bass Array, basically using multiple (typically 4, I have 5, more is better) subs distributed asymmetrically around the room. For example: https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 The only reason I asked about upgrades is because my experience with these things is they are totally worth it to me. So I never did ask is it worth it. That’s a judgment call no one but me can make. Same goes of course for you and everyone else. What I did instead was ask, and this has been mentioned before in this thread, was about something Eric and some others have said, that all his speakers have the same fast effortless detailed dynamic "house sound" but with greater refinement as you move up the line. Greater refinement can come from a lot of places, but a couple for sure are higher quality caps, wire, and drivers. Everyone at this level should know everything is built to a price point and that price point dictates a budget and that budget extends down to the wire and connectors, every tiny little detail. This is why modding is such a huge bang for the buck. We also know the whole point of the Moab (or so at any rate the story goes) was to see how close to the Ulf he could get for a lot less money. Well, obviously he already has made that, and its called the Encore. But its not a lot less. So how do you make it for even less? Well one way is you eliminate 2 midbass drivers. That saves not only the cost of the drivers, but the internal construction and porting, and crossover and wiring as well. It does however mean asking the midrange array to extend a bit lower into a bit less optimal zone, and the woofer to extend a bit higher into its less optimal zone. But that’s the compromise. Talking with a few who have heard both and compared there is a difference but not to me worth double the price. To me. But all that is still only part of the story. You can also reach a lower price point with cheaper parts. So that is the real reason I asked. Because every builder I know is only going to use the very best parts in the very best model. Its actually pretty cool, and I mean really cool, that Eric is enough of a speaker builder enthusiast to even offer this kind of thing. So now the reason for all the background. It may seem strange or even contradictory for Eric to be selling me upgrades while telling raysmtb1 "save your money" the difference is so minuscule you’ll never know. Odds are he’s right. Probably the difference is in the range of what happens as a component warms up, or burns in, or sounds better late at night. Thing of it is, I am just the kind of guy to whom those minuscule changes are not only not minuscule, they are obvious. I mean I’m paying $300 for a White Hot Stamper and anyone thinks I’m giddy about a speaker I haven’t even heard yet you should read what I have to say about Hot Stampers! Anyway what Eric said about the Ulf tweeter was, "Its very hard to hear. You might not hear it. But its better." He had me at "its very hard to hear." |
Don't sell yourself short. Mine will be limited by my meager first hand experience listening to new high end speakers. All I can compare mine to are some million dollar Wilsons. Which is hardly fair. To Wilson. You on the other hand have extended experience with the very highly regarded Double Impacts. A much more meaningful comparison, I would think. I mean, anyone can spank a Wilson. ;) To out-do DI, that takes talent. |
Half of 100 is 50. Half of six is three. Half is half. Do you really not understand the meaning of half? Maybe you should look it up. While you're at it, try arrogant, presumptive, squandered. As in your question is arrogant, presumptive in that you assume to know the answer, and you just squandered the opportunity to have a conversation. Well no one can say you didn't get the chance. Move along now, please. Thank you. |
rixthetrick skip to about the 9min mark https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GFnarjmG1c&t=17s |
That makes sense, but it still doesn't explain for example how he got around the secondary reflections with a baffle that wide, midrange would stay at 2pi or halfspace down to perhaps 700Hz, wouldn't getting it to fullspace be beneficial to reduce phase shift and doppler distortion? Never forget its all compromise, all the time. Eric has made a very conscious decision, clearly expressed on his website, to build speakers that are exceptionally high performance for the money. The kind of baffle you're talking about would no doubt be much better. It would also easily triple the cost vs his very efficient to build boxy designs. Anyway, the more reviews I see, the more positive the forecast :-) The reviews are just staggeringly good. There's probably more content on this thread having to do with technical matters, which in a way is a shame, because for me the technical is merely a curiosity or side issue. As long as the sound is fantastic I personally could not care less how the fantastic sound is achieved. It does make it better that a new approach is so well grounded in theory. But honestly there must be at least a hundred new approaches each of them at least as well grounded in theory. Its actually hard not to believe this is the root of the haters hatred, that Eric has come along and upended their little apple carts. Or had the temerity to give them something new to learn, when they thought they knew it all. (Lotta know-it-alls in case you hadn't noticed!) Shame on you Eric making me have to think, etc. Its good you're not just reading Moab reviews. A lot of the ones that convinced me were others- DI, Perfect SET, Enzo 2.7, Ulfberht. They all clearly achieve the same effortlessly fast detailed revealing sound, the same sound by the way that comes through even on Youtube videos. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj_eRQ8TCAY |
You’re right. Something is off. Details are missing. Scroll up and read through all my posts. One time it says Eric was working while talking. One time we were cut off when some equipment went off and he had to deal with it. Another time I caught him driving. That one was nice, until he got to the cabinet shop and I had to let him go. About half the time I can’t even talk to Eric and get Tammy instead. Don’t know about raysmtb1, but it always seemed to me Eric was busy but at the same time very gracious with his time. First time he answered I could sort of tell he was doing something and asked if this was a good time. Said he was working but okay if you don’t mind, and the whole time we were talking it was readily apparent he really was working on something. The impression I have is of a guy with a whole lot of enthusiasm, passion, and knowledge who just loves what he is doing and is proud of his work. Such people always seem this way to me, eager to share. But then maybe that’s because they can tell I share their enthusiasm. I would never dream of approaching such a one with, "I do not want your story, I want my speakers." If you get a different reaction it could well be its not them, its you. |
Often times by reviews I mean listener impressions. By listener impressions I mean comments from anyone and everyone who has actually heard the component. Reviews is a sort of shorthand for that mouthful. Then all of that is filtered for the details of what they say they heard. Videos are nice because you can see how excited or interested they are, written reviews are nice because writers tend to be more careful and precise with word selection. Well some of us anyway. If you read a lot of reviews about a lot of things you probably have developed a feel for certain reviewers. Well that's not me so what I do is go looking for a couple closely related reviews to see what they said there. I take every single bit of this with a big grain of salt. Some of it so salty it gets thrown out. The rest goes right into the mix. At the end of it all I find myself with a nicely seasoned salad. The complete list of components bought this way that exceeded expectations and I still own: Koetsu Goldline Black Herron VTPH 2A Synergistic Research Element CTS speaker cable Synergistic Research Atmosphere Level III Euphoria interconnect Origin Live Conqueror arm Melody I880 amp and Synergistic HFT, ECT, PHT, Blue and Orange fuses. The complete list of components bought this way that turned out turds: . I don't go by overwhelmingly positive reviews. That's just not anywhere near precise enough to base a purchase on. Reviews work just fine Oz, you just need to drill down into them and look for listening impressions that match your listening preferences better. |
Was searching around a month or so ago when I came across a post from last year and it was really interesting what he was saying and so I clicked on over to check out his system. Really amazing, spent a good little while going over the pictures, studying what this guy had done, wondering why its been so long since he posted. Then I started reading the posts in his system description. Better and better, the guy had links to some pretty cool fundamental research papers. Just fantastic stuff. Why oh why is he not posting???? A lot of what he had done was as far as I’m concerned clearly indicating the guy knows what he’s doing, and more so than most, intelligent mods and just an overall fantastic job of squeezing as much as possible out of his audiophile dollar. Thought there was something to learn here and since the thread was old and he was no longer posting decided to PM. Next thing you know he’s calling and is just a terrific guy and we’re talking and it turns out he’s still very active but stopped posting because he got sick and tired of the same old usual suspects hammering and hounding him over the same old usual baloney. He doesn’t have bull hide thick skin like me and said good riddance. He’s not the only one. There’s a few others, just that I know. Wouldn’t be the least bit surprised to learn there’s ten or more for every one I know about. This is something I’ve noted before. The mods of course are responsible. You don’t get to be the #1 most frequent poster and never have anything constructive to contribute (and not even have a system) yet cultivate a clique of similarly reprehensible rabble, without moderator support. Reeks of favoritism. There is currently a legal response based on Section 230 brewing, but that doesn’t mean there’s nothing we can’t do in the meantime. I would encourage everyone who would prefer to see this site be a repository of useful information to do as I have started doing recently. Give them one, or maybe two, chances to be taken seriously. When they revert to character give them a polite Move on, please. Then ignore, forevermore. It shouldn’t be necessary to ban anyone. It is attention they crave. Attention they will not get. Scroll on up through this thread for examples. Couldn’t hurt. Might just help. |
jovialspirit now I know where "wall of sound" comes from! raysmtb1 you must be beat, both physically and emotionally, after such a long day! Except, Scotty complaining about power??? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT8CRi9k4bo Heh. |
#Miller carbon I highly doubt that you are going to be disappointed. If you are the type of listener that doesn’t have a problem with making a few minor adjustments, (I hope that this statement doesn’t degrade the speaker review) you will find that you have lots to work with and that it will be moldable into your room and system beautifully. Thanks. Not at all. Good to know. MC what are you going to be driving your speakers with? Can you tell from any of my equipment or jovial spirits equipment if you’ll be OK with your current amplifier? Initially and for the rest of the year it will be this Melody I880 integrated. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 Then, fingers crossed, Santa brings me a Raven Osprey. According to Talon the Khorus speakers I had were only 90dB and that was fine. Whatever the Moabs are, they claim 98 but whatever, its more than 90. Between that and experience like yours I know I will be fine. More than likely, better than fine. Majority of my listening is at "satisfyingly loud" level- ie, its loud, but no one ever says turn it down. Every now and then though I like to play me some Nilsson Jump Into the Fire and really feel it. Like concert level loud. Which I think now when I do that between the drum solo and the bass solo and the screaming guitar solo I will be Han Solo on warp drive! Hey look, its the Golden Calf Nebula! Its beautiful! Miller carbon if you have a small dolly and are not a klutz,Moving, unpacking and changing positions is a one-man job. Excellent. What I thought. Hand truck, check. I've moved refrigerators and water tanks bigger than this. But some guys said definitely need help so thought I'd ask. Now I am sure it will not be a problem. Thanks! How do they sound now on Day 2? Anything different? |
The post that was removed is a reminder to follow this discussion. Because when you follow they send email notices and while they can remove the posts they can't stop you reading the emails. Meanwhile, back with the positive posters: Raysmtb1. Congratulations on getting your Moabs! I can relate to your reaction when you first set eyes on the two towering speaker boxes. I remember standing there for what seemed like forever wonder what to do next. Let the fun begin..Enjoy and I’m eager to hear more about your listening experience. I’ve had mine for 8-9 months and couldn’t be happier. Congratulations, indeed! On the one hand the measurements aren't all that much bigger than what I had. Footprint might even be smaller. Height maybe 2 feet taller. But the Talons taper way down while the Moabs are a monolith and stand taller than me! It should be awesome. |
gimmeroc: My Encores were right about 4 months from order to delivery. That was during the black Friday rush and the holidays but it did take some time. Doesn't really matter. They sound great and I will be selling my Wilson Yvettes as soon as I can get them listed. Were they standard satin finish or piano gloss custom color? |