Yep not hard to imagine that cone breakup would be less with smaller drivers all else held constant. Right. This is Speaker Builder 201. The voice coil pushes and pulls on the cone. The force travels along the cone in waves. This is Materials Science 201. That’s why everyone goes to such lengths to find cone materials that are light and stiff and at the same time highly damped. Because otherwise you get breakup, which is really just a word for the cone flexing and vibrating in ways you don’t want. Basic stuff you seem to know, this is more general info for whoever may be interested in learning. Could be. The midrange on the Double Impacts I have heard was very good. Right. What everyone says. Well, I mean, everyone who has actually heard them. |
An interesting approach to say the least. Still, you made it work. Double Impacts with double 4-10s is a killer combo.
I am curious to know why you didn’t go with the Moabs? After all then you would have 34 drivers working for you for the same $4500.
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There may well be such a thing as a millercarbonism. Pithy, thought-provokingly controversial, eloquent and erudite. Very rare and hard to achieve. As opposed to MDS. Think about it. |
raysmtb-
my post about the number of drivers only explains how I made my
decision. I never said that my speakers were the best or that the
Wilson’s were the worst. I simply made a statement that I enjoyed my
speakers and shared with you guys the way that I made my decision. Where
do you get off putting words in my mouth? Happens a lot. Although in fairness its usually more to do with reading comprehension (ie, lack thereof) than animus. Read through just this one thread you will see what I mean. As far as the drivers go, they are right, and you were lucky this time. Even though, in a funny sort of way, now that I think about it your reasoning is valid. Sort of. You mentioned not knowing the science. So here goes. Speaker drivers need high power to weight in order to respond fast. But they also need to do this over a wide frequency range. The problem with this is the lower the frequency the longer the wavelength and so the bigger the driver needs to be. This is how we got to the standard approach of using small tweeters, big woofers, and in-between midrange drivers. Each one of these has its own small range it works best in, and so crossover networks are designed to distribute the music, hopefully in a seamless manner, from one to the other. In this view, which covers the vast majority of speakers, the competition is on developing powerful motors (the magnet and coil that drives the whole thing), light, stiff, and highly damped cones, and exceptionally stiff and highly inert basket, baffle, and cabinet. All kinds of crazy high tech materials are used. Because what they are doing with this approach is trying to make a semi-tractor trailer rig handle like an F1 car. Eric took a different approach. Not entirely new (few things are) but better. Tweeters already have a very high power to weight ratio. Also they are very low mass. So they are capable both of the high dynamics of music as well as being able to reproduce harmonic structure similar to the original music instrument, because their mass is about the same. The example Eric uses is his soft dome tweeter at 0.3gm is the same moving mass as a violin string. But so is everyone else's. These are off the shelf tweeters. The trick is he figured out how to use them in an array to move as much air as a conventional midrange. So in a way its like you said, he has more drivers working for him. More affordable, readily available, low mass/high power drivers. Then he uses the same concept right on down the line. The 14 tweeters in the Moab are functionally one 9" midrange. But one 9" midrange with the moving mass and power to weight ratio of a 1" tweeter. No wonder everyone says the midrange is captivating! The two woofers are equivalent to, I don't know, something like one 15" or maybe 18" woofer. No wonder the bass is exceptional. Don't be distracted by all the drivers. The Moab is essentially a 3-way. |
Thanks, figured it was something like that. If you're serious about the drivers per dollar thing you should know what's going on. Because you got lucky this time! Other speakers with multiple drivers may look the same, but they are not the same.
So to be clear, you got the subs, then you got the DIs, they sounded great but the color was off and when Eric said send em back he'll fix it you took it as a chance to upgrade and will getting Moabs. Is that right?
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amg56-
Hey Miller, it sounds like you are getting excited! How many sleeps to go? I think you mean sleepless? Lol! Yeah, excited, but in check. Now if it was a new 911.... But seriously, hard to know for sure. They've hired people but its hard to know which has expanded faster production or demand. I’d love to see how much you need to re-arrange your room to tune them in during and after burn in. My system is here
https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 This room has had JBL L7, Linaeum Model 10, Vandersteen, and Talon Khorus. All of them sounded best in almost the exact same location. For years my best audio bud was a dealer with a demo room a little smaller than mine. I lost track of how many different speakers he had in there and again, all sounded best in almost the exact same location. The only thing he would change for me, if he knew I was coming he would toe them in more. He liked very little toe in. One time at CES I was helping set up one of the Talon rooms. This was my first CES so I was mostly watching and keeping my mouth shut. The guy was fussing endlessly with the speakers. Eventually he asked if I had any ideas. Do you have a tape measure? Five minutes later, if that, the guy is all smiles. No kidding. Never for the life of me understand why people make it so hard.
Do you still recommend subs with the Moabs? Cheers 🇦🇺
Of course! The more the better! The levels will have to be tweaked for the new speakers. But I am totally stoked! |
raysmtb1- Then when you get to the very top, the model called the 1812 has one
giant 18 inch woofer, 12 mid range and 18 tweeters. That’s the speaker I
would love to hear! I guess if he would have stuck to his theory
instead of having one 18 inch woofer he should have four 10 inch
woofers. I wonder why he didn’t stick with his theory? He did. Its just that there's more to it than it seems. Basically what he's doing is using small highly compliant drivers to emulate one larger typically lower compliance driver. There's a sub video where he taps on the driver to show how freely it moves, how little transverse friction there is. Also there is more to the design than the drivers. As we go down in frequency cabinet volume and porting needs change with the driver. With all his other drivers Eric has figured out a way to make them work as if they were one much larger driver. There's no reason to think anything different here. In other words it may look like one 18 inch, but between driver selection and cabinet design it probably works like 24. And as big as it is already, believe me, you would not want it big enough for however many 10" drivers it takes to do that! |
Thanks, a bunch of mostly music lovers, that's the impression I have as well. Few if any "audiophiles" just people who enjoy listening to music enough to feel its worth putting some money into it. Normal people. I would love to be there to capture the look on their face as some of the guys around here try and explain to them why the speakers they have that sound so good can't possibly sound so good.
nwres are you in the NW? |
Over the top, gushing, and giant slayer are all either your personal evaluation or made up terms no reviewer ever used. We all know there are components of every type where someone somewhere is seriously overcharging. We also know someone somewhere has actually bought that same stuff because they disagree and think its good value for money. Its not silly to claim something performs way better than something more expensive- if that is in fact what you have heard it do. That is all that is going on here, at least with the reviewers, the owners, and those who have actually listened to them. All they are doing is relating what they have heard. Their experience. Not wild made up fantasies. Those really are silly. Those really do not help at all. As much as you may think otherwise. They just don’t.
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Zu. Romulus. Not Moab. Check the OP. Scroll up, check the title. I know this is asking a lot of you but please do try and be relevant. |
Found that Elac ribbon tweeter. For that kind of money you coulda got Encores. I wonder if the effect is as great as $2k worth of HFT?
I have a very nice dipole tweeter been sitting in a box for years. Wonder what it would do.... |
World beater? I thought it was giant killer? If you're gonna nitpick at least get it right. Oh and by the way that was from a Best Of blurb not an actual review.
But hey, at least you found something constructive to say about the subject, the Moab speakers by Eric Alexander of Tekton Design.
"At $4,500, these speakers deliver the power, impact, presence and output of speakers costing as much as 10 times the price, and that is truly extreme value."
Thanks for reminding me! |
While Eric’s tweeter arrays are what grab everyone’s attention, I recognized the woofer that he uses when we were neighbors at an audio show a couple of years ago. It is an excellent woofer. I had expected something much less expensive considering what his speakers sell for. No I’m not going to say what they are, only that they are excellent, and imo are extremely well suited for what Eric is asking them to do. I totally believe claims people have made about low-end impact, that woofer has one of the best motors made today, in my opinion. Boom. That sound you just heard? Mic drop. willgolf-MillerCarbon --My custom made in wall DI speakers just arrived for my independent theater room. They are still massive despite being in wall speakers.
So not your typical anchor screw into sheetrock then I take it. Sized to fit between studs? When you said in-wall, knowing you, (and Eric!) I figured right off throw out all preconceptions. Thanks, and pease keep us posted! |
DBA? Of course! All together now: The more, the better!
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shalommorgan- I just wanted to chime in regarding the Moab’s ability to deliver
impact, power, tonality, dynamics, detail, accuracy....all within a
small room setup. I find that the Moab can be a beast when taunted, but
also be delicate and precise when called upon. Its physical size should
not be miss understood, but rather judge it for its voice. I listen to a
lot of singer song writer acoustic stuff, and to me the music comes
through with such warmth and richness it emotionally sucks me into each
note. Happy listening. You are not by any means the first to say this. This is all premature seeing as I don't have them yet but even so maybe this is something others can learn from. Because I was asked early on how I use reviews. Well one way I use reviews is by looking for insightful comments such as these. Out and out gushing reviews might easily mention dynamics and expansive sound stage. When the same reviewer takes the time to make clear they don't do this with everything, it depends on the recording, well I pay attention to that. Then when they go on to say oh and intimate singer songwriter emotionally sucks me in with warmth and richness, it scales up for full orchestral equally as well as down for delicate/intimate, well that is when I click on over to Fidelity and start checking balances and making plans. "Such warmth and richness it emotionally sucks me into each note." Sign me up. I can hardly wait- and can only imagine how freaking happy you must be to actually have a pair!
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Check out this gem from Eric's Blog:
500 hours break-in! Proper loudspeaker break-in is, indeed, long, and is
to be expected. However, let me be perfectly clear – if a loudspeaker
that you’re auditioning, demoing, or have purchased doesn’t sound
excellent right out of the box (excluding optimizing placement and final
tweaking), immediately pack it up and send it right back where it came
from, period! My offerings included! Then again maybe I think its a gem because its what I have said many, many times before: If its good it will sound good right out of the box- and if it doesn't, send it back, because it probably never will! Ha! |
raysmtb1-
If you go to Eric‘s website there’s a button for his blog. It goes all
the way back to 2010. It’s pretty interesting there’s lots of stuff on
there that he doesn’t offer anymore and you can see his announcements of
stuff he thought would do well that maybe didn’t do so well etc. it’s
kind a cool like a window into the past Hadn't noticed this before. Thanks! |
That's been my experience with everything. Not only speakers. Everything. Every PC, IC, speaker cable, amp, CDP, fuse, phono cartridge. Eric has a blog post on the physical changes in speakers, which apparently can be measured. He describes generally the same thing I have noticed, that most of the break-in happens fast and early, then continues at a slower rate, being mostly done around 50 hours.
The main thing though is what you just said, that they sound very good right from the first minute. Good to hear. |
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Eric this, Eric that. Eric has done his job well, has nabbed people hook, line, and sinker. It is proven that many high performance items, audio and cars for example, before they perform their best. The first part of this is innuendo- a sneaky way of insulting someone’s character without having the courage or clarity to come out and say directly exactly what you mean. But the third sentence isn’t even a sentence. If you can’t write a sentence odds are good you didn’t know how underhanded you were with the innuendo. Maybe like the ungrammatical sentence you didn’t even know what you were doing. Well, now you do. Berylium tweeter is 600 more, how does it sound ? You’ll have to ask someone who knows. I wasn’t inclined even before talking to teajay, who steered me off it as being unnecessary. |
"Wrong" is subject to interpretation where custom colors are involved. People who actually do order usually know what they ordered and don't say just "speakers". And if "speakers" (whatever they were) did come, when in August were they ordered, and when were they delivered?
This thread is meant to provide information helpful for those considering Tekton Moab speakers. Ordering experiences in general may also be helpful, but only to the extent they provide useful information and are not just venting general dissatisfaction. Or trolling. |
mwatsme- Surrounds on the bass drivers are so lite/thin - you can see light through them (on the DI’s). Doubt there’s much resistance there to break-in, maybe on the other drivers. The surround is just the part everyone sees. Inside is another almost identical part called the spider. The surround goes around the outermost part of the cone. The spider does the same only at the innermost part of the cone, just between the cone and the coil. Together they allow the coil/cone assembly to move in and out while maintaining concentricity. https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0013/9716/2041/files/anatomy.jpg?v=1542303947A key element of Eric’s designs is high compliance very low transverse friction drivers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgamPbKdQ9EI am curious to know how you're able to see light through them. Normally its pretty dark in there... |
At the risk of giving attention to people who obviously have nothing to say, and therefore deserve no attention, but the topic, the OP, is Tekton Design Moab speakers. If you have anything to say even remotely on topic, welcome. Otherwise please respectfully take your comments elsewhere. Thank you. |
Rhetorical question* glupson: did I say they LOOK identical? Or was I talking about functionality? Clearly it was functionality.
Is there ever a time you read for comprehension? Or is it trigger troll trigger troll 24/7/365? Because if you tried even the slightest teensy tiny little bit even you might be able to realize there are surrounds that are accordion shaped and they do actually even look almost identical to the spider. If you put half as much time into trying to understand as you do trying to think up an insult you might every once in a while get what’s being talked about.
The point of the whole thing is how it functions. This is the idea behind the whole Tekton line: a new approach to functionality based in the physics of very low mass and very high compliance. The surround and spider of low transverse friction are key elements.
Now please, there are plenty of threads where your constantly irrelevant childish taunts are actually appreciated by your equally truculent little cohort. Would you please go and spend your time there? I’d sure appreciate it. To judge from the PMs I get I’m not alone in this. Thanks!
*Rhetorical means I don’t expect (nor, in this case, want) an answer. |
Would have ordered mine months ago were it not for being hung up on the not being able to hear them thing. The more I thought about it though the less sense it made. Never had any chance to hear any of the other stuff I've bought the last five years or more. Stuff that all turned out to sound at least as good as expected.
It especially makes no sense in light of one of the more frequent comments, that a bunch have said, that Tekton are extremely revealing of upstream components. Anything you change you really hear it. Which when you think about it cannot be true any other way than you are not hearing the speaker, the speaker is letting you hear the other components. This is the only interpretation that makes any sense. Think about it.
Therefore, logically, if I go and listen to Moabs anywhere else its not really Moabs I'm hearing, its whatever else they have. Its their electronics. Their room. Of course the Moabs are in there somewhere. Has to be. Nothing ever is perfect. But of everything involved the speakers are the least of it. 20%. If that.
(In reality the worse the speaker the greater its faults therefore the more of what you hear is the speaker. If Moabs are perfect, they contribute zero percent. The more perfect the speaker, the less there is to hear. Think about it.)
(Flaunts conventional wisdom. Don't care. Because: true. Iconic millercarbonism.)
You've probably read enough millercarbonisms to know no one component is any more or less important than any other. Okay. So to turn around now and say well actually really speakers are the most important- sorry, not happening. Why? No evidence for it. No reason. Not happening.
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And so it is very much on track after all. Thanks, grey9hound, for helping keep it on track. Appreciate it.
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nwres- I am looking forward to your Moab delivery day. I am sure I am not alone. Always enjoy the threads about new gear. They have inspired me to make changes to my system and at times, to appreciate what I have. Thanks. You are not alone, not at all. My system had been stagnant a number of years. For a number of reasons. Guess I was too much an audiophile for that to last. But I was similarly inspired by some of the people here as well. So here we go....! |
Relax speedbump6, the site has contributors, seekers, - and trolls with nothing better to do. He's quickly established himself as having little to contribute and no interest in learning. So process of elimination. Ignore. You're absolutely right about the rest. I don't see Eric going the dealer route. It could be done but would require significant redesign. Currently the market is value buyers and performance buyers. Because let's face it they're not museum piece works of art. That's not a knock, that's the point of the whole first paragraph on the Moab page! https://www.tektondesign.com/moab.htmlForgive me but I must have missed where you said you ordered a pair. Details, please! |
Yes many have said the size of the stage they throw can be huge, and the weight of the bass impact is impressive. But they also say they scale down beautifully for more intimate music. So its not like some speakers that make everything big.
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The answer to your question listening99 is you can easily get 98dB from those speakers, and from just one watt, and in your room. You just have to measure from the same 1m distance as everyone uses in specifying sensitivity.
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This is a good example of why I no longer care all that much for measurements and specifications. Oh, I used to. Years ago I ate this stuff up. If the interweb had been around 20 or 30 years ago it would be me writing pages like Al is doing. What happened was I listened to so many different things that ran counter to measurement, specification, and theory that it became relegated more and more to background noise.
Please guys do not misunderstand me. Please! I am NOT saying no measurements are ever useful. Some are. The problem is you have to learn so much about all the how and why and pitfalls first in order for the measurements to be of any real value.
Like take this example as a "for instance". In order for the meter to be of any use at all it must be measuring the exact same thing as the specification- same voltage, same distance, same anechoic (or whatever) room, same signal. Which we haven’t even said what that is- tone, white noise, pink noise, what? And what weighting is the meter set at? dBA or B? Fast response or averaging? See what I mean?
So the meter is supposed to be able to make up for distance. How? If the speaker is in an open field (or huge heavily damped room) there is no reverb and all the sound comes off the speaker, then the meter would adjust for attenuation over distance.
But if the speaker is in a small lively room things get a whole lot more complicated. Now sound is reverberating off all four walls, ceiling, and floor. Moving away from the speaker from 1m to 2m the SPL drops off much like in the field. From 2m to 3m however now room reflections contribute more and more to the measured SPL.
At some point- and at some frequencies- the SPL may actually increase as you move further away. How can the meter correct for this? Only by using some generalized model, guaranteed to be substantially inaccurate in all kinds of situations.
See how long it took just to explain the erroneous nature of just this one little aspect of just this one little thing? When all along: Was it loud? Yeah man I wouldn’t ever really play it loud like that for long anyway.
All you need to know.
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uberwaltz-
Glupson
Is it your purposeful intent to derail and devalue this thread?
You are making an excellent job of it if so.
Please just give it a rest!
Exactly. But look, at least four different people have told him to get lost. Its also been made crystal clear he’s free to discuss whatever he wants either by starting another thread or just taking his same stale old act elsewhere. Anywhere but here. Same for anyone wants to argue and blather endlessly. There’s a huge amount of information on this thread to help anyone genuinely interested in these speakers including how to get the most out of them. The only real downside is having to scroll past the unwanted waste of space blather. So please, give it a rest. Move on. What? You’re still here? Go! |
Another example of just how much you need to understand in order to make use of specs. Amplifiers are linear, and fixed. That is to say whatever the incoming signal, it is amplified by a fixed multiple. This is true of all amplifiers by the way, except for where amplification occurs in the digital domain. Which is a whole other subject. This is where we have to be careful not to get into trouble, because a pre-amplifier is really just an amplifier with an attenuator, aka trim pot, aka volume control. When the volume control is continuous its a trim pot, a device for continuously varying resistance. When the volume control is stepped there is a separate pair of resistors for each step. Either way they are attenuating the incoming signal. The incoming signal being line voltage is virtually always more than enough to drive power amplifiers to clipping. This is why some use passive preamps, nothing more than high quality attenuators. Okay so active preamps are an amp and an attenuator. If the amp in the active preamp has enough gain then it can put out more voltage than came in. Passive can only output the same or less. That's it. As far as volume anyway. There's a lot more to it but we're talking volume here. Which, I have to say, the absolute least important thing in all of audio is what number the attenuator is pointed at. For some unGodly reason this has so much meaning to so many guys. As if there's bragging rights to it being loud at 4 on the dial instead of 6. Anyone who thinks the number on the dial means anything needs to watch this over and over again until the comedy wears off and you swear an oath never to make that mistake again. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xgx4k83zzc |
I worry you may not have enough bass.
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Youngster, if only you knew. Old Stereophile article about Fabio and his mega-watt Martin Logan system. Chinese food and a movie. Everyone starts barfing. Fabio turns down the subs. Everyone fine. Old Stereophile. Look it up.
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jovialspirit- I’m one of the many believers in what Eric Alexander is doing. I have extensive experience with many of his models, as do my close friends. Like many of us, I’ve owned and heard too many products from different manufacturers to count, and again for the price point they are at, Tekton has checked more boxes for me than ANY other between $1-19k. Which I suppose is why you bought your Moabs. Would actually be nice to have a lot more time to talk with Eric. A designer like Eric, his knowledge base is so wide and deep its like when I talk to one of my neuro or ortho surgeon buddies. They know I know way too much to talk baby talk like they have to do with their patients. But then at the same time if they lapse all the way into the way they talk to each other they can lose me in a heartbeat. Sometimes I’m able to remember a few terms and look them up and understand. Other times they see the look on my face and realize they need to shift gears to my level of technical understanding. This same thing happens when talking with guys like Eric. Any time there is a deep technical knowledge base, could be car suspensions, ortho surgery, or speakers, doesn’t matter, one of the bigger impediments to learning is getting a handle on the appropriate level of discussion. With Eric there is also the complicating factor of proprietary information. Patents or no patents, like it or not, the fact of the matter is the guy has figured out how to do something right, and nobody told him how he had to go and figure it out all on his own. Something I have enough respect for to not expect him to be just giving it away. A lot of the questions I would love to have answered fall into this category. Sad to say guys but there’s stuff I have learned already and more yet to come that I will not be releasing for general consumption simply out of respect for that. 15 employees. Good. Last time I talked to Eric he called me. Hadn’t even left a message. He just saw that I called. Guess I must not be that much of a nuisance after all. |
At first glance I also thought perhaps speedbump6 might be a bit light on bass. Then I thought, you know, he probably knows that room pretty well, and he does have a second system, sometimes you just have to compromise... Yeah which might be okay for high end but we're talking Home Theater here. When you're watching 2012 and the Earth cracks open its just not realistic unless you have enough bass to physically crack the Earth open. I have my doubts. All I'm saying. |
rixthetrick- Sometimes as my mentor told me, a better design can outdo superior components, when it comes to audio. I’d love to hear the Tektons now more than ever. Thanks, that was a much better read than the screed. |
What I was hoping to hear from a guy who looked inside is what's actually inside. Where is the crossover? What's it mounted on? How accessible is it? What caps? PCB or hand wired? How accessible/complicated is the wiring?
Not because any of this matters to the listener. They sound the way they sound regardless of what is in there. Therefore there are only two reasons to go looking in there- to carp and critique, or to tweak and improve. We got 500 words of carping when it would have been so nice to actually learn something.
Oh well. That's why this thread. Eventually some day when they come we will find out how they sound. Then we will find out how they sound with 8 refrigerator magnets. I can hardly wait.
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While Eric’s tweeter arrays are what grab everyone’s attention, I
recognized the woofer that he uses when we were neighbors at an audio
show a couple of years ago. It is an excellent woofer. I had expected
something much less expensive considering what his speakers sell for. No
I’m not going to say what they are, only that they are excellent, and
imo are extremely well suited for what Eric is asking them to do. I
totally believe claims people have made about low-end impact, that
woofer has one of the best motors made today, in my opinion.
Duke This was in direct response to another of the above trolls trolls. So there's no way he doesn't know, and he just keeps on anyway. Sort of a Energizer Bunny Troll, he just keeps on trolling. Move along, troll. Please. |
If you think that's insane, I'll have five subs with my Moabs. Even that is nowhere near what some guys have. Too much? Read the reviews:
"Bass was tight and articulate and seemed to be coming from everywhere,
but well integrated with the music, band, performance. Never boomy or
out of control." https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367Should be even better with the Moabs. |
mofojo-
The Moabs have waaay more than 1k in parts. You could not buy the
components, build cabs, crossover components for what they are selling
for. Final cost to part cost ratio is excellent regardless of what you
think they sound like. Right you are. And very similar to what Duke said, so you are in good company. The woofers in mine will be the same excellent ones Duke saw. The tweeters are all the higher quality ones used in the Ulfberht. Ditto crossovers and internal wiring. These are of course mere refinements. The kind of thing no one would ever notice without a side by side. The Moabs will stand or fall on their native merits. Assuming they stand, they will also be a sort of beginning or raw material. Once having learned on my previous speakers just how much there is to be gained from judicious tweaking and mods there's just no way these go unscathed for long. Never fear dear readers, they will be well and truly reviewed in as-delivered form before I go tearing into them.
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speedbump6-
And correct mojo, if we as individuals tried to buy all the materials
that go into this product, it think we would find them to be a great
bargain. Yes, and its not just guys like us who see a high value for money. Even as experienced and knowledgeable a one as Duke is impressed. |
Funny thing about measurements hleeid, they are always and without fail touted as being so much more objective, unbiased and of course scientific, in other words better. Yet when any of their many seriously significant problems are raised its the very same people who claim the high ground who immediately stick their heads firmly in the ground.
Meanwhile the 800 lb gorilla no one wants to even admit exists is the fact some components really do a whole lot better at engagement, involvement, conveying emotion, carrying you away. They all know this exists, because no one worth their salt has ever not felt it. Can only believe this secretly drives them crazy because they know its there, but darn it, how do we measure it?
I'll tell you how. You find yourself pulling out records one after another late into the evening. You lose track of time. You find greater enjoyment in a wider range of music. Exactly these sorts of comments show up again and again from people listening to Tektons. (Not only
Tektons, of course. Heard the same about Harbeth and some others.) The people who think this isn't scientific or objective don't know the first thing about science, let alone statistics and sampling methods. Logic, above all, is foreign to them.
Trolling, that they know. Trolling they got down pat. |
Roxy54, ghasley,
Thanks, guys. |
The sub2s go well below twenty, so they will add something for sure.
Also subs provide more slam that a speaker that plays at 20hz. The
Ulfers also go down to twenty, so will have four speakers that play at
that level plus the subs. Right, and that is the way to do it. A common mistake is to try and use a crossover to filter and save the mains, make them work less hard, etc. This misses the fact that low bass is a volume proposition, complicated with modes. This is the reason a DBA works so well. The multiple subs add together to achieve the total volume, while the multiple locations work together to achieve lots of small modes. Together the result is smooth, articulate bass response. (As noted in my system review above.) Once you really understand what is going on then its easy to see why removing two bass sources by using a crossover on the main pair is just about the last thing anyone should ever do. It puts an extra circuit in the signal path, and results in worse (not better, worse) bass response. Truly a bad idea. Instead, the better solution is to use all the bass drivers you can, and tweak their output to achieve excellent flat response. Which seems to be what you are doing. Which if I remember right is something you figured out on your own, which is more than I can say for myself! |
I do not understand much about measurements either. No one does. Measurements are crude one dimensional approximations of what is going on. Sound is pressure waves of compression and rarefaction. We will measure the difference between the compression and the rarefaction and call that dB. We will time these cycles of compression and rarefaction and call that frequency. We will measure the dB at each frequency, make a dot on some graph paper, and call that frequency response. There. We have measured your speaker. Only, that’s not the way people hear. We know its not because some other guys said we will get some speakers and measure them and use them to play some different frequencies at all these different dB levels and do a test to see what people actually hear. So we play 1kHz at so many dB and 100Hz at the exact same dB and ask which one is louder? And people always say 1kHz. Even though they are the same dB! So we run the test again and again at all these different frequencies and try different volume levels and do this with a whole lot of people. Because its a really strange result and we want to be sure and get it right. In the end we wind up with another set of measurements called equal loudness curves. These curves bunch up at each end. In other words people do not hear anything like what meters measure. Meters say so many dB is so many dB. Equal loudness curves say really low bass is barely even audible until it gets quite loud, and then once it does suddenly we are more sensitive to it and small volume changes seem big. That’s two big problems just with this one common measurement of sound and we haven’t even gotten to the problem of where is this all being measured? Because sound usually is in a room, with walls, floor and ceiling reflecting energy back, reinforcing here, canceling there, different for every room. So usually they go and measure in a special room called an anechoic chamber. In other words, the measurements are made in a room absolutely nothing like any room anyone is ever going to be listening to the speakers in. That’s measurements for you! |
When discussions get around to dissing factual measurements as being useless (no one understands them?) especially when the facts do not jive with opinion, that’s when they lose me.
That's an insult not an argument. If you understand them so well then maybe you'll be kind enough to explain exactly which part I got wrong. |
Oh man you really do crack me up sometimes. There is always a ground. Think about it. |
