Lewm, Regarding But I am interested in what you know about the Mk3 mods that were done by Bill to Albert's Mk3. Can you describe them in any detail? For one thing, I am curious about what is done to the power supply module. For another, I wonder whether the inventor is supplying some actual parts to Bill, for him to effect the modifications. Nothing is done to the power supply beyond Bill's initial rebuild. My suppy remained here during this last upgrade, so no way anything was modified beyond the motor chassis. Also, regarding Dover I've known the inventor of the mods for 25+ years and have followed the development of his system. Unfortunately there are many issues with his system outside of the turntable with which I have issues so I have to judge that particular SP10mk3 in that context. As the TT is in constant development I may or may not have heard his latest mods. I viewed images of the MK3 that Richard owns and if I had not been told it was once a Technics I would not have recognized it. I have no idea if what was done makes it better or worse than original or how that fits with the mechanical mods he came up with. Richard told me he was using Acoustat 2+2 speakers and all his electronics were built by him. Further separation from mainline components that one might use to judge total system performance. For those reasons I'm not sure I could tell anything about the MK3 or any other table that might be put in play. Not saying there is anything wrong with what was done, more like listening to a system at a show where nothing is familiar and trying to offer an accurate assessment. |
Is "Richard" the guy who invented or first devised the beneficial modification(s)? Even Dover admits in the quoted paragraph that he is unable to make a judgement regarding the modified MK3, because so much else about the system is in constant flux. Yes, Richard Krebs came up with the mods and worked out with Bill Thalmann to perform them stateside so customers don't ship all the way to NZ. Richard told me he spent over fifteen years developing the mods and he (smiling) said he wish he could have been here to audition before and after the effect of the mods. Seems he spent so many years developing it was always a bit at a time rather than all at once I experienced. The mods are quite excellent and as I've posted before provided results that were completely unexpected. I was thinking quieter, more refined, more black background and instead heard drastic reduction in distortion, greater detail, better dynamics and opening up (greater transparency) of all frequencies but without any hardness or shrill added to the extreme highs. What I'm looking forward to is someone doing the less expensive SP 10 MK2 mod. It would be interesting to hear how that goes up against a "stock" MK3. |
Lewm,
Sonofjim has not heard the Krebs mods. His comment about Bill Thalmann mods and Dobbins mods referred to electronics.
There are (to my knowledge) only two people capable of doing the Krebs mod. Richard Krebs in NZ and Bill Thalmann in USA.
I had Richard in my home for a week, I'm pretty sure this information is accurate.
I have NO financial connection whatsoever to either of these mods or shops other than being friends with both. |
12-09-12: Lewm
I guess I will ask another question and also bump this thread. Albert, did you have any truly objective way to know that the Krebs mods made a significant improvement in your Mk3's performance? Or are you reporting a subjective impression, which is perfectly OK? I've had several MK3s. Two here now, one of which is beyond totally restored and for sale here at Audiogon. When my MK3 got the electrical upgrade from Bill Thalmann the Krebs mod was not available. I had hundreds of hours to listen since my first MK3 and I've tested over and over the effect of plinths, mats, clamps, damping, isolation and tonearms. My Krebs mod was gotten to quickly as mine was first in line. We still had the other table here as well as my ultimate reference of Studer tape and collection of master dubs. The first 30 minutes with Krebs mod was such a surprise I could not take in the experience. Not that it was difficult to hear the difference, quite the opposite. My shock was the AMOUNT of difference this made. I'm going to go out on a limb but the Krebs mod might be a bigger upgrade than going from Technics MK2 to Technics MK3. As time has passed the upgrades improved. I know why since I have some knowledge of what is involved. However, unless Richard chooses to share "why" I will not go into that. Based on the massive copy cat designs fostered by my Panzerholz plinth (soon to be 5 years ago) I can understand why Richard and Bill might be mute on the topic. |
Sonofjim (Kent),
I'm surprised that all the phone calls and email messages we exchanged you never mentioned the mods done by Bill.
Are you saying the two tables are almost the same performance (with and without) the mods?
Your tests certainly did not result in the same outcome as here. Also, Bill explained the issue you had with noise on the (non) Dobbins version of the MK3. That was a huge noise generator easily wiping out any benefit of the mods. |
In my view any serious attempt to replinth theSP10mk3 would include throwing away the exoskeleton and motor covers and bolt the motor, bearing & tonearm mounting base rigidly to a common sub chassis to maximise rigidity and minimise any potential movement within the platter/turntable/arm/cartridge loop.
I'm sure dropping the SP10mk3 into a slate or Panzerholz "plinth" makes a difference but it is only a half pie solution in my view. You have obviously not studied what was done with my version of the MK3 plinth, Panzerholz plus metal interior plate attached to the MK3 using stainless steel bolts. Underneath there is a large steel plate with stainless bolts through the chassis and metal plate, into the MK3 carriage. A large non magnetic threaded brass rod attaches to the bearing and undercarriage capturing the Technics from any vertical movement and provided a sync for vibration. The arm boards are attached with stainless steel plate, attached with stainless steel screws and fixed to the same plate as the chassis of the MK3. This is 90 pounds (+) of "cure' for what was originally supplied by Technics. The sorry "glass" plinth by Technics was a joke and none of the tables you list has a plinth with even a fraction the effort and material that was put into ours. Last, the top plate of the MK3 does not matter one whit once the other issues are resolved. In my opinion this is simply an easy way to purchase beater SP10 MK3 and not have to repair or restore the damages chassis parts to make it presentable. |
Understood and I agree. There are many plinths for sale that are nothing more than a cookie cutter hole in a piece of material. Hardly a proper plinth. As for Artisan Fidelity, their plinth is a copy of mine and I resent that. However there are others and probably will be more. My Audiogon Lenco project is here: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vbudg&1082337040&view That was nine years ago, but I built dozens of plinths and worked with high end turntables thirty years before that post first appeared. I agree most people don't address rigidity and that is perhaps the most important thing other than quality of materials. The other people that put everything they know into making their plinth right is Steve Dobbins and Oswald Mills. All of us do it a bit different and each gets a bit different result but those are all originals and represent maximum effort. |
I will leave it to Audiogon members to decide who copied what. Take a look at ads and dates. |
Albert, Why do you think the Technics engineers were able to make the best turntable, but they were not able to design a suitable plinth?
Lbelchev (Answers | This Thread) For the same reason Technics did not know to do the Krebs mods which raise speed stability and improve transparency and dynamics. There are precious few products manufactured 25 years ago that cannot in some way be improved through modern materials and technology that simply was not available back then. |
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Thanks Lewm for saving me the trouble of replying.
The short answer is I heard the difference the upgrade made so I don't need numbers to make me feel good. |
Bury the hatchet would be to drop the subject since my last reply was short.
Additional short answer is my plinth has no relation to the stock Technics plinth other than the radius around the perimeter.
Your's on the other hand copied our iron block and rod, recessed chassis, arm board design, rubber grommet and plate outlet for umbilical cable, metal interior plate sandwich to Panzerholz and pretty much all interior and exterior dimensions. |
12-18-12: Lewm
Yes, if you mean performing the Krebs mods on the Mk2, I too would be curious, as I think there is even more to be gained vis the Mk2 than vis the Mk3. A friend who listens with us occasionally is the first person getting Krebs MK2 mods, at least on this side of the world. His MK2 was still at Bill's two weeks ago but hopefully it's near completion. My friend (Ken) also has a Krebs Technics MK3 so he's clearly the person to answer this question. He has an ultimate system, very high resolution and pro tape machines that serve as baseline for sound. Depending on his report I may invite myself back to his home so I can hear for myself. |
You ask this question: 12-18-12: Lewm
Yes, if you mean performing the Krebs mods on the Mk2, I too would be curious, as I think there is even more to be gained vis the Mk2 than vis the Mk3. Moreover, according to Bill Thalmann, the Mk2 Krebs mods are less expensive than the Mk3 ones. My reply was in response to that. Is that not what your question concerned or do you not have interest in performance differences on the more affordable MK2 mod? I spoke to Ken yesterday and he has his modified MK2 back from Bill's place. With the holidays it's not likely I can get over anytime soon. |
Lewm,
Nope, not a dunce at all, these threads get so convoluted it becomes difficult to follow.
I hope the MK2 mod is wonderful if for no other reason than it's an affordable upgrade on a turntable that's reasonably easy to find.
The days of clean Technics MK2s for $800.00 are long gone, but even at current prices they're cheap. Especially compared to something like your Kenwood or MK3. |
