I'd like to have a thread on cartridges that work with the Technics SL1200MK series tables.
I want to buy a Technics SL1210MK2 (the new black version from Musicians Friend) and need a cartridge recommendation. I am using a Musical Fidelity A308CR preamp that has MM/MC capability. My amps are Bryston 7B ST's and I have a pair of B&W Signature 800's on the way to replace my N801's. The MF Preamp is rolled off on top and the system is very listenable for long lengths of time. I'd describe it as detailed, but not too bright.
I really want to try the Technics table as it is relaible and inexpensive ($400 shipped or less for a used table if I go the ebay route). Please do not try to talk me into a different table. I had a VPI Scout and Dynavector 20x (High output) that I sold because I just wasn't using it. I'd like to keep this cheap so that I have decent TT available when and if I want to use it.
What can you recommed for a cart? I'd like to keep $160 to $200 as a max and stay lower if possible. Here is what I am considering:
Denon 103 (not the R) Denon 110 Denon 160
Audio Technica 440 MLa
Shure M97xe
I do not know what carts work well with the Technics tonearm. I know that it is light and some threads recommend a Sumiko headshell for the Denons. What do I need to know here before buying a table and cart.
I just bought Shelter 501 MKII, and mounted it on Sumiko headshell (it requires using auxillary counterweight). It is so much better, than my previous 0.5 mV Grado Platinum. Every aspect of music reproduction has improved. I think, it's tracking better, as well. Very higly recommended. Regarding compliance- Shelter is a low compliance cart, and the extra weight of Sumiko plus the auxillary weight do compliment this cart. There is a school of thought, that says- heavy tonearm is always better, regardless of the cart compliance. I feel, that fully modded KAB Technics (mine has fluid damper, Cardas arm rewire, outboard PSU and RCA connect plate) can serve even fairly expensive cart rather well. I'm also getting ISOPLAT mat and Audiopoints to replace stock feet. Will report on the changes later.
The Shelter 501 Mk 2 works without the fluid damper but you owe it to yourself to put the fluid damper on as it provides the biggest improvement in the arm. I ran the Shelter without but after hearing my old table with the fluid damper on I probably wouldn't have sold my Technics. I used the stock headshell and didn't need the extra weight on the back of the arm, but with a heavier headshell the extra weight would be required. The Denon 103 requires another 3gram brass weight on top of the cart if I remember correctly and the rear weight. The Denon 103's require a really good MC phonostage or a step transformer to sound their best as they are ~.2 mv, whereas the Shelter is .4mv and that's a lot of difference, plus you could get interference from EMI/RFI if you haven't used a low output MC, so remember you might have to spend more on the phonostage to get the most out of the Denon. The Shelter has a much more neutral presentation and way tighter bass, plus the Shelter has a better elliptical stylus and won't wear your records with it's 1.85gram loading versus the 2.4-2.6grams I think the Denon needs and it has a conical stylus.
Drubin: First off THE SL1200's are a bargain and provide a base unit that can be upgraded to pretty stellar results. I intend to buy another SL1200 and mod everything on it and it will still cost less than getting a second tonearm on a high end table. I will do a comparison, but that will have to wait till next year after the bleeding on my analog upgrade has done to my finances.
The SL1200 in my setup with all the mods wouldn't be competitive because of the glass top shelf on my rack. You could rest your hand on the top and feel each string being plucked.. spooky weird. MY SL1200 sounded great on my last $2500 rack on the top shelf but looked really bad in my room. The Clearaudio Ambient provides a constrained layering plinth that dampens all vibration so that I can rap my knuckles on the glass top while listening at ultra loud volumes and nothing is heard. My 5" diameter rear bass port sits level a couple feet away and they don't disturb my table unlike everthing else I've owned so far. The Ceramic Magnet Bearing is stunning and the built in Syncro Power regenerator locks my speed in at 33.3 or 45 just like a direct drive... I considered buying an Technics SP10 MkII and putting a Graham arm on it in a custom plinth but I waited for like 6 months looking for a clean one with no luck (ebay and audiogon).... The Clearaudio tonearm and continous wiring is stunning compared even to the cardas wiring because it has so many splices... I could go on but I don't want to side track this great thread.. it's about the SL1200
send me a PM if you would like to talk differences offline...
Tigerwoodkhorns: I think people recommend the rewire if you don't have the M5G version which has the better cabling (which is what I had). I can't speak for how it sounds with the stock wiring for the other versions.
I think the fluid damper should be an upgrade every SL1200 should have with ANY cart. My buddy is using it with a $90 cart and it made a big difference..
The Shelter 501 mk2 tracked fine and sounded great on my SL1210 M5G without the fluid damper so it's not required. So if you had to do it in stages get the arm re-wired first, buy yourself a cart and enjoy, and when funds happen get the fluid damper and re-discover your whole vinyl collection with each upgrade.
For a higher performance high output MC, how about a Sumiko Blackbird or at least a BPS EVO III? The Blackbird is a S'phile Class B recommended component.
As for the Denon 103, you could get a Zu103 and matched K&K step-up transformer for less than the Shelter 501 (about $775 total).
If you are willing to go as high as the Shelter 501 there are certainly other options to consider such as the Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood and Aurum Beta S as well as the Benz Ace and Glider, all of which can have high output if desired. The Dynavector Karat is a reasonably compliant medium high output MC. The Lyra Dorian is less compliant and, as such, not quite as good a match, with a little less output, but still healthy. The Sumiko Blue Point Special EVO III and Blackbird are high output MCs although less compliant like the Lyra. It will be good to know what loading options the MC stage has in your Musical Fidelity preamp.
Sounds like the loading for the MC stage is 47k although that is unusual. It may be worth double checking with Musical Fidelity. The 350uV spec is more typically listed as .35mV which is withing the window of workability for most but not all cartridges. All of my above recommendations fall within that spec. Benz has models in low, medium and high output, all of which would work with that phono stage. Going with a compliancy of less than 15 might begin to be a liability with that arm. The Lyra and Sumikos are a little low with a compliancy of 12, but probabaly still workable. The Denons are lower still.
i just installed a clearaudio talismann, which i believe is a denon 103, heavily modified by clearaudio, on my 1200mk2. i loved what i hear. a big improvement from the dynavector 10X5. i'm using an original technics headshell. phono stage is lehmann black cube se and loading is at 470 ohms.
I just received a Denon DL160 and Sumiko Headshell. This is a fine combination. It balanced without the counterweight. The Denon has plenty of gain with my MM stage, no need to go to MC.
WAIT! The best is yet to come. Once the cart/stylus breaks in you will not believe how beautiful the DL-160 sounds with the right recordings. I have about 40 hours on my DL-160 and I have jumped out of my seat more than once hearing sounds that are far beyond the soundstage. They shouldn't be where they came from!
Can anyone quantify the improvement with the KAB fluid damper? Will my 54 year old ears be able to hear the difference on my SL-1210M5G with a DL-160. Right now the combo sounds great to me w/o the KAB mod. I have a thick Technics rubber mat, record weight and the standard M5G headshell.
I look forward to it. This is really a nice cart, especially for the price. I was worried about its output because I used to have a Dynavector 20X and I really had to turn up the volume. The Denon is just right.
Here is a review of the fluid damper that is linked to the KAB site:
04-08-08: Jsmoller Can anyone quantify the improvement with the KAB fluid damper? Will my 54 year old ears be able to hear the difference on my SL-1210M5G with a DL-160. Right now the combo sounds great to me w/o the KAB mod. I have a thick Technics rubber mat, record weight and the standard M5G headshell.
I am a 54-year-old with an SL-1210M5G outfitted with Denon DL-160 cartridge, Sumiko headshell, and KAB fluid damper. I definitely hear a difference and definitely consider it money well spent.
I added the fluid damper a couple months after I'd installed the DL-160. When I ordered the fluid damper from KAB, I also got a tube of bearing oil. While installing the fluid damper I also added several drops of oil to the turntable motor bearing. I think this lowered the noise floor and also made the platter spin more smoothly, requiring less speed correction from the DD quartz lock circuitry (my guess).
Anyway, it's important to not overfill the damping trough with the silicone fluid. When I first installed it, I filled the trough about 2/3 full. KAB recommends 1/2. The result at 2/3 full was that the sound was smooth but not very involving. Noise floor was way down, but initial transients were rounded off and blunted while there was improved resolution of room ambience and better note decay at the other end. I lowered the fluid level to 1/3 and that's where I really liked the results. Transients are quick and sharp as ever. I hear the room better, and there is much more natural decay of both instrument resonance and room ambience.
There are two other audible benefits at least:
Stylus movement is better controlled, tracking is better, there is much less overshoot and "groove clatter." This is most noticeable on percussion. Bells, cymbals, brushes, tambourine--all those percussion instruments that make complex overtones in the treble punctuated by strong transients--their sounds are now much better sorted out, more musical. The trough imparts a sense of refinement to the tracking. I think Kevin's right. With the right amount of fluid in the trough, the SL12x0 tonearm sounds refined and in control. You'd never guess it to be the built-in tonearm on a mass-produced turntable. You hear more music, less noise, less overshoot, less clatter.
The second benefit is how the fluid damper enables the arm to track *anything.* By that I mean I have some bargain-bin LPs that are hideously warped--the outer track undulates by 1/2" or more. These records launch most arm setups right into the air, only to land who-knows-where, sustaining who-knows-what damage. Not so with the fluid damper. The stylus simply traces the groove, period. The bigger ramification here is that if a 1/2" warp can't throw the stylus out of the groove, the warp and arm/cart compliance resonances are also well-damped by several dB. This imparts more clarity and extension to bass and more inner detail and clarity overall, without sounding etched or harsh, as the damping also minimizes groove clatter and overshoot.
I still recommend putting the DL-160 on a Sumiko headshell for its additional rigidity, better wire leads and clips, superior coupler to the tonearm, and azimuth adjustment capability.
Also, how much benefit you hear from the fluid damper may depend some on what all else you've done to control vibration. I have replaced the stock feet with threaded brass cones sitting on a butcher block cutting board which itself is supported by Vibrapods. I also use an Oracle sorbothane Groove Isolator mat and KAB's rubber record grip clamp. I also noticed a drop in noise floor by putting the stock Technics felt slipmat under the Groove Isolator. Seems that a heavy mat over the felt mat damps the platter ring more effectively.
The less of this that you've done, the harder the fluid damper has to work. You may hear a more dramatic improvement that way, but the cumulative results of a multilateral approach to vibration control is better.
This maybe a silly question, but I haven't seen anyone use this combination: Is it possible to mount the PeteRiggle VTAF onto the Technics with the OL armboard?
I am getting a used technics sl1200mk5 today and was wondering for a newbie like me which cartridge sounds great and is on the easier side to install. Rest of equipment is dartzeel preamp, dartzeel amplifier......
I was thinking even less than the benz micro ace....either the denon dl-103 or audiotechnica ml440a. Are any of these easier or harder to install on the mk5 technics for a newbie?
The Denon DL-160 mounted on a Sumiko or LpGear Zupreme headshell is very musical, fast, linear, and balanced.
What Tvad said is true, though. Mounting most any cartridge on a removeable headshell is pretty equal from cartridge to cartridge, but if you get a KAB all-in-one solution such as the KAB-Ortofon Pro-S 30 for $239, all you do is plug the entire unit into the tonearm. Overhang and alignment are automatically already in adjustment. This method also eliminates an additional set of wire leads and clips and another detachable joint between the stylus and the tonearm.
thanks for the advice.....has anyone heard the kab ortofon 30 and compared it sound quality wise on the tt to the well-liked audio technica 440mla or others?
If you go to the LPgear listing for the AT150MLX here, there is a link to a pdf excerpt of a Sensible Sound review, I have the complete issue of that magazine, where the reviewer compares the AT440MLa, AT150MLX, KAB-Concorde ProS 40, and another hybrid or two from KAB and Stanton on a KAB-modified SL1200 with fluid damper and other mods. This excerpt only has what he said about the AT150MLX, but it was clearly his favorite, and he particularly mentioned that it was more linear than the AT440MLa. He felt that the 440's plastic body may insert a bit of upper midrange glare vs. the 150.
I must mention that he was reviewing this rig for the purpose of archiving LPs to CD, so overall he might have liked the KAB-Concorde ProS-40 or 30 equally well overall, but gave the nod to the AT150MLX because its MicroLine stylus does a better job of sounding fresher when playing used and worn vinyl.
08-12-08: Tjnindc Does anyone know if you can retip a dl 160? My twin two years olds got to it one day before I pulled the cartridge off...
Maybe it's time to upgrade to an Audio Technics AT150MLX. It's about $70 more than a DL-160, has higher output, is better in every way, is a great match for the Technics arm (especially with a Sumiko or LP Gear headshell), and has a replaceable stylus that costs the same as a DL-160.
The AT150MLX has a retail price of $499 and sounds like every penny of it, but for some reason, you can get it from J&R Music World with free shipping for $249, or from lpgear and other vendors for $259. It's a stone cold bargain.
You might also want to consider an Ortofon 2M Blue.
I guess a new part of your shutdown routine will be snapping the stylus protector into place, removing the headshell with cartridge, and placing it far away from 2-year-old fingers.
HAHAHA. I even got a case when I ordered the 160 so that I could keep it and my Goldring stored safely. sigh. Those two years olds are just a bit quicker than us 40 year olds on occasion.
I was just looking at those two cartridges. My gut says to go for the AT150MLX especially since it has that stylus protector built in. I need a second Sumiko headshell to mount the Goldring on, too. Time for an order...
And time to make the new routine, routine. Removing headshell now.
I just recently replaced my AT440MLa with the 150MLX on my main rig, and moved the 440MMLa into my garage rig. Both TT's are SL12xx's. I was really digging the 440 after many hours of play; a fine little cart at $100, especially compared to my Shure M97xE. Anyway, at $250 shipped from J&R, I figured what the hell. And I was getting tired of swapping the 440 between rigs. Out of the box, I'm quite impressed with the 150. As it racks up hours, I'm loving it more and more. It is a better cart than the 440, no doubt, but it is not fully broken in. And I'm a firm believer in break-in. I should mention that I have zero desire to go to an MC cart. I'm trying to have fun with, and enjoy my vinyl, not make a science project out of it. And enjoying it I am! I will interject here more after I rack up some more hours on the 150...
These are the carts I am enjoying great success with on a 1200mkII:
- Ortofon 2M Red on Ortofon SH-4 shell - Ortofon 2M Black on Ortofon on SH-4 shell - Shure V15 IV (Ed Suanders stylus) on SH-4 shell - Stanton 500E (Saunders stylus) on Stanton shell - Stanton 881S (Saunders stylus) on Stanton shell - Grado Reference Sonata on SH-4 shell - Grado M+ mono on Technics shell with 4 g weight
My favorites are V15IV, 881S and Sonata.
All feeding a Manley Steelhead at 47K Ohm @ 170 pf accounting for the 100 pf in the 1200 mkII phono cable for a total of 270 pf.
Or go one step further with the AT150MLX. It takes the qualities of the AT440mla and kicks it up a notch. It should as it's more expensive. One of the best MM carts on the market, imo.
For my Technics SL1200Mk2 my favorite non MM cart but it is close as it is a High-Output Moving Coil Cart is the Denon Dl-110 on a SH-4 headshell with Nerve Audio Litz headshell wires.
My phono preamps that I've used with this are the Bugle2 Phono from Hagerman Tech or the Emotiva XPS-1.
I may try the Denon DL-160 if I can find out at a good price.
04-27-14: Dave_72 Or go one step further with the AT150MLX. It takes the qualities of the AT440mla and kicks it up a notch. It should as it's more expensive. One of the best MM carts on the market, imo.
I have a Technics SL1210 M5G. I started with a Shure M97xE, moved quickly to a Denon DL-160, but a year later (about the time this thread stated 6 years ago) moved up to the AT150MLX. I've been using it ever since. About a year ago the stylus was wearing down. I considered some other cartridges, but for $225 I just replaced the stylus and it's been chugging along ever since.
It *is* a good match for the Technics DD's. You can improve this match with an LPGear ZuPreme headshell and by wrapping the tonearm in Teflon pipe thread tape. The tape quells the undamped armtube's upper midrange resonance. Once I did the wrap, the AT150MLX really started singing and became more adept at all styles of music.
Glad you agree Johnnyb53. It's really a good cartridge, and at the street price, (i buy via turntableneedles.com for new styli at $189.00 a pop.) it's a no brainer. It does take a while before the stylus to wear down. This is a well built unit, and the cartridge itself is a nice chunk of metal.
05-02-14: Dave_72 ... It's really a good cartridge, and at the street price, (i buy via turntableneedles.com for new styli at $189.00 a pop.) it's a no brainer. It does take a while before the stylus to wear down.
According to my local turntable/cart dealer, the MicroLine stylus is particularly resistant to wear, good for 3-5 times the wear of other shapes. I got 5-1/2 years out of my first AT150MLX stylus before needing to replace it. And even then, it didn't sound damaged; it was just getting dull-sounding and not responding to cleaning.
If you figure in the cost per playing hour, the AT150MLX is an even better bargain because you might get 5 years out of one stylus instead of 1-3.
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