Thanks guys for your responses. Certainly food for thought. I currently have some good quality amplification left over from my previous system. Class A solid state: Plinius sa250 and matching pre amp and a "super integrated" Hybrid class A AMR AM-77. So I've got some nice amplification on hand to be going on with with. But I'd like to try and get back to the magic tonality I had with the Avants and the 45 tubes.
Reading between the lines it seems that I should save up my pennies for a while and buy something more appropriate. How does everyone feel about the something like the KR kronzilla or something like that?? What would be more of an "ultimate amplifier" that could take me the way I want to go ? (Without going mental like the Wavac ec300b)
Sorry to change tac on you !!! I appreciate your advice and time. Thanks. |
Those Wavelength Audio products look interesting !!! Thanks. |
Hi Guys, thanks for your very helpful suggestions. While I am very keen to go back to directly heated SET, from what you mention above, I'm not sure the usual fare will be "powerful" enough. Tannoy recommends min 50 watts, but the specs (99db 1w/M) suggest that 8-10 watts would be enough. I have read Jeff Days reviews(and chatted with him) and he loved the Sophia 300b's with the Wests as well which seem to bare this out. Also I tend not to listen at very high volumes.
Off the back of your suggestions I'm going to take the following, pragmatic approach.
1. Run the wests with my current(no pun intended)amps.
2. Try a number of SET amps that I can demo from local retailers (I'm in NewZealand so not in plentiful supply).
3. Off the back of that determine if the Low powered SET approach will work for me.
4. If I enjoy the SET over my existing amp selection, I'll buy a suitable "special" one having saved up enough to spend 10k ish on something used.
Then I'll have to chat to you about pre-amps !!!
Thanks all for helping me to this decision. I'll let you know how everything works out. |
Charles,
I must admit to being an SET man at heart as well. If I thought I could get away with it I'd go 45 based amps but I fear that would be a step too far. I really, really Loved the yamamoto a08-s but at max 2 watts per channel simply not enough for the Tannoys (great with the avantgardes), although jeff Day did suggest that I tried it with the Tannoys. There is a Shindo dealer in Auckland so I may see if I can demo some of their kit if I cant find a suitable SET. Surely I can. Much fun !! |
Jb. I so hope so. I'm looking forward to experimenting. |
Oooo!! I've never heard of him. I'll have a look. Thanks Iso. |
Iso, I've just spent a very amusing couple of hours reading the "triode guild" website. Harvey was not only an amazing audio and social commentator but obviously a very, very funny man. I keep chucking out loud and disturbing my Girlfriend watching "the day the earth stood still" ( the crappy keanu reeves one not the brilliant Michael Rennie one )
Thanks for pointing me in this direction. |
Hellooooo chaps. My greeting is somewhat enthusiastic because I have made a decision( for now :-) ). After much reading I'm going to try and find a Viva Solista SE integrated, second hand. There is one on Ebay now if I can negotiate the price down a bit. It Ticks all my boxes. It's SET , its interesting looking, all point to point wiring etc. and from what I read it does the things that I remember loving about my previous SET. If anyone has experience with this amp I'd like to hear your thoughts. Good or bad. Thanks again. |
Bit of a side step. Does anyone know , or know anyone who knows anything about these amps ??
http://shop.grantfidelity.com/Psvane-845T-Super-Tube-Power-Amplifier-Pair.html
These guys make some well respected tubes, but I cant find anything about this amp range. I've been an early adopter of chinese hifi in the past even though it was rubbished early on(when Shanling first came out I imported a scdt200 It wasn't at all bad at the time). I'm not saying its an option for me, but I came across them and thought they looked pretty cool. They are not cheap and they do a matching pre amp and tube power supply as well.
Any thoughts ?? |
Charles, thank you for your encouragement. It reads as if it has plenty of DH SET magic, and I've read about people driving Sonus Faber Guarneris adequately as well so should be fine power wise.
Phaelon, I think that its the original, I'm waiting on answers to questions. Its a pity I wasn't looking in Oct. It looks like one sold on ebay for just under 4k US ( Grrrrrr isn't it always the way ) I am patient man though and my AMR AM-77 will be very good I suspect. Its suppose to sound like a very powerful SET, and in some ways it does. But of course in comparison , tonality and getting the balance between the performer and the rest of the music, is where the true SET will win. IMO. ( I don't suppose your friend wants to sell his ;-). )
Bvdi. Thanks for joining in. I suspect in the long run you may well be right, but you know what its like. I have a yearning to try and get the SET magic back in my life and I'm going to try it out. My system that I put together with SET's etc, allbeit not extensive, provided me with most satisfying period in my hi-fi lifecycle to date. It almost feels a bit like trying to recapture my youth, impossible but tremendous fun trying. If I were going to try a different design, I might try Shindo. Don't go there yet everyone.
Great chatting with all !!! Thanks. |
I love it when we all get along. :-).
Atmas, thanks for the insights into your design aims. Its very nice of you to share them with us.
When my speakers finally arrive (its killing me) I'll experiment and tell you what I liked and why I thought that way. I'll try and see if I can add an demo SET to my auditioned components.....
So in the meanwhile, have a happy Holiday everyone, stay safe and I hope to chat with you early in the new year.
(I'll have to wait for the speakers to burn in first. Daammmmitttt ). |
I'm pleased this thread has invoked some very interesting comments.
Atmas, I like your explanation of why DHSET do what they do. Very easy to understand, it makes sense to me, especially in context of what the 45's and Duos did for me. I don't think that a Solista is going to come along anytime soon at a price I can afford say 6.5k (more over time). I'm anticipating time for experimentation.
I'll explain a little more what I like and hope to get out of my new system.
I don't consider myself into huge dynamics or extreme performance, what I am into is a totally sibilant free and natural presentation. Overly Bright and metallic sounding leading edges on s's t's etc are my real pet hate.
Tone, images that are super free from the speakers and depth of image is very important to me. I seem to prefer a more relaxed presentation. I think that this can also be a function of the room, that is in hand. I have a dedicated room 10m x 6m which I can treat for acoustics. Its not a huge room, but I believe I can get the system to work well.
If not I have 12m x 8m room that I can use, but that will take some serious domestic negotiation with my girlfriend, probably including expensive bribes. Money that would be better spent on Vinyl !!
I'll state up front, that the romantic in me (and the fact that Jeff Day got on so well with Sofia 300b) will make sure that I'm going to try a suitable SET with them. If I can find a Solista at the right price, it'll be one of those. It appeals to my Arty side :-). I'm aware, thanks to you guys that Power may be an issue. So onto experimentation......
I regard the Plinius SA250 mk4 as one of the best class A solid state amps (at realistic cost levels). Fortunately I have one, so I've got that experiment covered. I also have access to a friends 50w pp amp that actually sounds really lovely with his speakers, so Ok there as well (cant remember what it is right now ). My AMR AM-77 will be an interesting pairing as well. Just for completeness my front end is a TTweights gem/Kuzma 4point/DL103r.
Originally I started off thinking of a CAT SL2 would be great. There was one on hear last month in NY for 7k ish. In some ways I think that would be a great tube match if the Wests require POWER. I'm not too worried about making an expensive mistake as I believe as long as you're a sensible buyer and not in a rush you generally don't lose to much on quality components. I don't really listen very loud, at least its not something I consciously set out to do. I find tracks generally sound best at a level that they seem to dictate themselves , so I may turn something up or down to get better emotional connection. I have no experience with OTL amps, I'm not even sure what they are other than they have no transformers in the output stage.
Once again, I appreciate your experience and enthusiasm, thanks. |
Correction:- JL2 not SL2 and it was 9k. |
Thanks Dover, If i struggle down the room, I'll give it a go. |
Phew !!! For a minuet there I thought It was all getting grumpy and out of hand ;-).
Atma, I appreciate you'r physics based approach to your explanations. Seems to make sense to me.
Charles, I like you're open and philosophical approach to the classification of what will work or not. I think I'm in the same camp as you re trying SET's with these. Probably if there are limitations, the subjective benefits I'd get in the way I listen would more than make up for the downsides.
Personally I have never found the "massive power being better" thing to be true, but there are so many variables here that it is immensely difficult to judge objectively. I'm thinking of a friends class D amps driving his B&W 802's (A horror to my ears). he really loved it, something I couldn't understand.
I am getting a number of truths from this thread:-
1. There are many different ways to get it right.
2. There are more different ways to get it wrong.
3. If we each think that our own system is fantastic then who cares what others think ?? I do like to listen with friends over a nice bottle of wine. But I wouldn't design a system change so they liked it more and me less.
(maybe there is a different consideration in the case of designers who are designing products to be attractive to appreciative customers) Actually that's a thought provoking point...... Atmas do you design to what you think sounds great, or is it a case of trying to please some of the people, most of the time ?? I expect in this industry(at this end of the industry) that its driven by passionate artisans who are designing towards their ultimate personal taste. I think that's the only way that you get truly phenomenal products. i.e. someone pushing passionately, for what they believe is the ultimate way to go.
4. The only way to really tell is to experience for yourself in your own room with your own music. Unfortunately this is not always possible so gathering opinions from experienced enthusiasts like yourselves can help avoid making really bad mistakes.
Thanks all. |
Wow, this thread has taken on a life of its own. Excellent !! I thought I'd drop in to give a quick update on where I am with the power amplifier experiments with WMSE.
1. So I bought the Sophia 300b monos and a new set of tubes ( psvane 6sn7 / Sophia royal princess 300b / RCA 5u4g rectifiers ) all together not cheap. In my system I found this match a little underpowered in the bass. there is plenty of it but its not as controlled or defined as I was hoping. That's not to say that some things don't sound fantastic with them. But its not a combination that I enjoy listening to complex, rhythmic, dynamic music on. having said that solo guitar etc sounds fabulous. I'm keeping these amps they do some things very well. But I need more control so ..
2. I took a risk and bought some (not so cheap)Chinese 845 monoblocs. I was very impressed with the PSvane tubes I'd bought and so I bought a pair of Psvane 845T ref Mono blocs. 2x Two 845's in parallel driven by a 300b and 6sn7 . they are fabulous looking things and they certainly give me more control and better imaging however they are very difficult to match a pre-amp with. The power amps present a 600ohm input load( ridiculously low) to the preamp. My first attempt was with a SS plinius pre-amp I had on hand. This was a fiasco and rendered me an ear bleeding top end and and next to no bass. At this point I am almost crying into my empty bank account. However I have just swapped in my schitt Lyr headphone amp with a set of pre outs on it. This is superior by far. Now I have bass ( thank the hifi gods )- Its still not the most tuneful but at least I know the power amps respond to different pre-amps and can do bass.
I'm interested in trying to get the best out of these amps ( not least because my wife will get the disembowelling cutlass' out if I have to buy more power amps ). I have a friend who has a Cat ultimate mk2 and a Einstein the tube pre-amps and I hope to try these over the next couple of weeks.
In the meanwhile I throw myself open to suggestions as to pre-amps that are good at driving difficult loads. Namely 600ohms. I don't know why they would design a power amp like this. Maybe its because they want to sell their pre-amp that is designed to match. I'd be happy to do that but I don't want to go throwing good money after bad if its not going to improve things.(If you know what I mean).
I'd also like to hear experiences in pre-amp / power amp miss-matches. Has anyone else come across a bassless performance as I describe above and solved it with a preamp switch out. Or should I consign the Chinese power amps to the great transformer graveyard in the sky ??
Yours hopingly,
Myron. |
Thanks for your ideas gents.
Ralph, financially I like the sound of modifying the input to present a different impedence. Is this a "difficult" thing to achieve ?? I know that's a nasty question given the lack of info.
Would both the mp1 and the mp3 drive this load well ??
I do know a very experienced, local tube guy who repairs/designs amps for the domestic and professional music industry here in NZ. Perhaps I'll get them over on his bench and he can have a look see.
I didn't consider modifying the input as I expected that there was a good reason for 600ohm implementation. Its good news that you think this can be done.
I certainly didn't expect it to have this much impact. I never considered input and output impedance previously. Its opened a whole new area for me :-).
I'm very grateful for your help, as always.
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Hi Wylmars. Of the amps you mention above I'd love to hear the Viva's . Listening to my 845 based amps
(http://www.psvane.com/?Jkg/t845/) .The pictures don't do them justice. I think that when I've nailed the pre-amp issue They'll be fantastic. You could also consider the KR Kronzilla series of amps. I very much empathise with your predicament. Its very frustrating worrying about making the best decision you can. It can easily spoil the experience. If I were to say one thing from my recent experience, I'd say that you need more control for the bass than my 8 watt per channel 300b amp gave me. To get that "high efficency" freedom feeling I seem to need more power. Good luck. I'd been keen to hear your findings as well.
Just one last thing, Jeff Day remarked that the Tannoys are very forgiving of amplifiers and you can get great performance with a wide range. I think he's probably right. |
Hi Wrm57,
you are right.... looking at their web site the more costly VAC pre-amps recommend an input impedance of >300ohms, which would work for my amps. Thanks for your response. |
Omsed, I may end up doing that. Been contemplating something like that if I'm unhppay at the end of all this . I'd still need a good pre though. thanks. |
Hi larryi,
What you describe is what I was finding. Almost no bass response. They do a matching 600ohm output linestage. If I cant make other Pre-amps work ( I'm trying the CAT sl1 tonight ) I may end up getting their matching amp. Its not too expensive in the scheme of things.
Thanks for your advice. |
I spoke to the designer and the 600ohms load input is in fact a transformer not set with a resister. So it would seem that this is a transformer coupled design. I tried a CAT ultimate Mk11 last night (100ohms output) and its very good, transparent, non fatiguing etc but I still don't get the extended bottom octaves. On Patricia Barber modern cool I can follow the Double bass line down to the point where I am missing the lower notes. I Still get the leading edges etc of these notes just not the meat ,depth and scale that I've heard before. The best I've had the bottom end so far is with my 75ohm output pre off my headphone amp. but its too noisy.
Can someone please suggest why their 600ohm matched impedance , tranformer coupled design, might work better than a using a lower impedance pre in a bridged model into the 600ohms as I am trying. I know that matched impedance delivers better power transfer lower reflections but that Bridging delivers better voltage transfer. Maybe I just cant get the differential high enough with the low 600ohm input ??
As you can see I've read enough just to confuse myself. maybe keeping and eye out for an Atmasphere pre is the way to go. It does appeal to me.
Thanks again. |
Yes I am enjoying them much more now,
Thanks all for your contributions to this thread. Its been fascinating.
Just for info I've just ordered a pair of Devore Fidelity Orangutan 96's it'll be another interesting journey finding my way around them. Hence my renewed interest in SET amps. maybe I'll end up with Shidno like everyone else ;-). But I'm not going there straight away. At least I don't think I will.
More fun and frustration to come I'm sure.
|
Just a quick update... I tried an Einstein "the tube" last weekend. It was fantastic. Full, tight bass. Imaging left to right and back to front much better. Its got a 50ohm output impedance. That pre-amp is the best I've heard. Its an option but very expensive new.
Now to try and find a transformer coupled design with 600ohm output to see what that does. More findings as I have them. |
Tboooe, yes I don't know how they do it. I know this sounds corny but I listened to the Einstein in a couple of different systems and in each system it was like an extra layer of sound was sort of revealed. I don't know if this is because it is so quiet ? maybe. But the bass seemed to go so much lower ( but still tight) and the highs more extended ( but smooth ). It's a bit of a conundrum. The mids were balanced and very natural. I liked it a lot. If only I could afford one :-).
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Art80342 if you check out Jeff Days blog. http://jeffsplace.me/
You will find the link to that and also a more up-to-date, crossover upgrade project that he's going through with Duelund cast caps. Looks amazing. It is a gold mine of information for everything WRSE. Have fun. |
After much wailing and gnashing of SET's . I have come to the conclusion that the Westminsters love big power. The Sophia electric 300b's didn't work for me, and the parallel mono block 845's didn't work very well either. Right now however they are sounding fabulous. With a Plinius sa250 in class A/B mode. Sounds much nicer than when in class A. Seems odd to me. I will qualify this by saying I've moved house and have the Wests in a better room so they sound very different anyway. So if anyone was to ask my advice in driving these speakers in the future I'd be recommending bigger amps. Just based on my personal findings. Thanks all. |
Hddg, sorry I've been away a long time ( not for any criminal reason :-). ).
my personal, overall findings were that the Wests just liked being driven by beefy amps. The plinius sa250 with Einstein pre amp worked the best for me. I didn't try any super amps, but none of the tube power amps I tried worked very well. If I were to have my time with them again, I'd probably try the pass labs xa30.8 or further up that line if I had large pockets. Together with the best tube pre I could find. Others still love them with SETs. But that's what is so great about out interest isn't it. We all find beauty in different things. It's been almost a year since you asked your question..... what are your findings ?? Sorry for my late reply.
Myron. |
