Talk but not walk?

^^^^^^^

"And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.."

The messianic complex is complete ;-)

Exactly glupson,

MG critiqued people as fakes, and that there was absolutely no doubt that there were people here on audiogon faking it, not having done the "empirical testing" to have justified the views they were espousing.

When asked to elaborate, he instead went all obfuscatory and dismissive of anyone who didn’t just agree.

Well ok then, if he wasn’t going to engage honest questions, and was going to call out other people as not being sufficiently empirical (those accusations of people unnamed and hence with no justification actually given) then he invites examination of his own post, methods and claims.

But he can’t seem to take the heat.  

glupson,

Good luck with getting any straight answers.

But your persistence is admirable...for much of the thread I felt like Sisyphus but now you are taking your turn at the rock. :-)

Well, it's nice to see this thread turn to the promotion of MG Tuning, that it was intended to be!

I mean, we don't have any other threads on this topic. 

theaudiotweak,

I don't think you'll find logic goes very far in this thread. ;)

It’s interesting that MG and his follower can continually accuse people of being "trolls" in this thread. They use the term "troll" to avoid interacting with any challenging viewpoint. They just toss the term around as an insult in an evasive manner and never show how it is actually warranted. Let alone the accusation of "faking" that MANY here have been asking them to clarify or back up, and which they continually evade.

Yet, when I break down exactly why MG’s posts here actually fit the classic definition of trolling...e.g. the ^^^^above type of behaviour....THAT post gets removed.

Mods, would you like to explain this apparent double standard, please? 

Who else but Michael Green and his follower have actually explicitly expressed pleasure, glee, at the way this thread has turned out?  That it turned out as MG planned.  "Genius" his follower calls it.   Does that not tell you anything?

jf47t,

1. If you are honest.

And

2. If the techniques you and MG espouse are sound.

Then nothing should concern as being a "trap." If you have answers, you just give the answers. One only worries about a "trap" if one has something to hide, or if you aren’t confident in what you are presenting.

Note when MG asked me a question about capacitors, even though it was clearly a disingenuous set up to try to find a way to dismiss me, I immediately answered. No problem. There’s no "trap" if you just answer something honestly to your ability.

And of course, MG did indeed just go on to keep ignoring my questions, even after I answered his.

glupson

When geoffkait claims to have identified a fallacy, this is as good as a guarantee that you have not used that fallacy.

(And of course your post contained no such fallacy).

Congratulations, the point you made has received the geoffkait seal of approval.

;-)

So let's recount for a moment, in case anyone has forgotten:

Someone starts a thread talking about empiricism vs theory, criticizing "talking" vs walking.

Then at some point he starts making claims - "talking" - about things like capacitors changing sound when untied. 

He's then asked reasonable questions such as:

1. What measurements can you present to support your claim there are  changes between a tied and untied capacitor?

2.  How do you relate those measurements to audibility?  

3.  How did you test this hypothesis while controlling for variables like imagination and bias?

Then the OP runs away from those questions.  And has an underling take his place in continually avoiding any tough questions, supplying instead constant over-the-top praise of the OP.

Leaving us to question the OP's actual commitment to empiricism and "walking."

 

jf47t,

Posting the OP yet again!

I wonder what you think you possibly gain by reposting the OP like a brainwashed bot who can only Praise The Guru and mindlessly repeat His Words? That MG is apparently looking over your shoulder on all this stuff speaks quite a lot to the type of Followers He is looking for and the level of discourse one will find in His Method.

I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid,

......

why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks.

That was MG’s "talk."

Yet when asked to "walk" and show his claims would hold up to the scrutiny one would find in "empirical testing labs" and among "science folk," ....MG suddenly evades, evades and then vanishes.

It was just talk.

BTW,

on mpingo discs:

I had done some “walking” with the Shun Mook products in the past - their Speakers which I thought were terrific, and their mpingo discs.   I tried the mpingo discs in the ways they instructed.  Didn’t hear any effect whatsoever.
 
But of course negative results never count. I’ll just let geoffk add that to his Prof Can’t Hear arsenal of jibes.  There you go geoff: a free gimme :-)

How did my attempt at vibration isolation “go awry?”

Geoff,

I’ll try once more to elicit content from you:

You claimed my attempt at vibration isolation went awry.

How?

C’mon, show you can do better than Michael Green and support your claim. 
:)

Re geoff’s comments on my isolation project,

The project he refers to is one I’d made a thread detailing .

The building of the isolation base was occasioned by trying to add re-enforcement and isolation to a flimsy older Lovan rack, to accommodate my new and very heavy full aluminum transrotor turntable.

This is was not a rack I trusted with my turntable in the first place so I had to redo it before even setting up my turntable.

I ordered and checked out a large number of isolation materials and products, eventually making sure I used the ones that I could measure as having significant isolation. Hence I ended up with a thick maple wood block base, atop a sort of “layman’s” version of constrained layer damping, held up my Townsend isolation pods (springs).

The result was at the very least a very obvious reduction of gross external vibrations - both by hand feel and measuring with a seismometer app.

Place a hand or iPad with seismometer app on one of the lower “untreated” shelves and one can very easily feel foot fall near the rack, and the seismometer registers huge, ringing spikes of vibration.
But place a hand atop the isolation base and you feel no vibration transmitted even stomping the nearby ground. The seismometer app also registers almost nothing. (Even these results are welcome as my youngest son stomps through our house like Godzilla).

I finished my thread by pointing out that this situation of having to rebuild my rack before listening to the turntable meant I had no before and after reference and could not rightly tell anyone the sonic dividends the base may, or may not, have rendered. I also pointed out that not being an expert in these issues, and not having been able to carefully draw a line via more rigorous testing from anything I employed to a sonic result, the honest position for me was to admit this and not make any such claims that I couldn’t back up.

But that nonetheless it was fun and interesting playing with all of this stuff, learning what I could to the extent I did, and that it was a DIY project that Was satisfying in its own right.

Now...THIS^^^^^ is what geoff would like to spin into a project “gone awry.” And in geoff’s world of making grand unsubstantiated claims, being honest enough to refrain from making overreaching claims counts as abject failure.

Something to contemplate when reading his never ending attempts at barbs and insults.

And of course Michael Green would still never acknowledge any of those effforts as “waking” instead of “talking” because: 1. I didn’t use little tuned wood blocks or tear apart my equipment and 2. Acknowledging my efforts as “doing/walking” wouldn’t fit the narrative he has going that I’m just a Faker/Talker.

elizabeth,

My sentiments are in hearty agreement with yours! There’s a limit to how much energy I’d want to put into just being able to listen to music, and dialing endless audiophile tweaks sounds like drudgery. Especially the keep tuning, tuming, tuning per program material of the MG school! Let alone tearing apart much of my gear. The Tuneland photos are to my eyes aesthetic nightmares and it seems pretty obvious why, even if effective at all, it’s going to have a very limited audience.
You can’t show rooms like that to anyone and claim “I’m just all about the MUSIC, maaan!”

No. You really aren’t. Normal people, especially musicians, can happily enjoy music without tearing their equipment apart in the worry that every errant vibration may be diluting the sound quality.
This is the sign someone really is in to THE GEAR and tweaking. And there is nothing wrong with that, either!

I have my own lines to draw about where I want to spend my time and mental energy, and I would NEVER try to draw them for other people. (And call people “talkers” because their efforts don’t align with mine).

I am already well into “kooky” territory in my efforts relative to the non-audiophile (and I continue to experiment with things like room acoustics etc).

That’s why I’ve continually supported in this thread any Tuner’s hobby. If they get a kick out of opening up their gear and trying Michael’s ideas, more power to them. I hope Michael’s techniques really work out for them.

glupson,

prof,

Do not get into it

.

It’s no problem.  I know exactly what I’m getting in to with the occasional interaction with geoff.  This was just a little opportunity to remind folks that our neighbouhood dog that barks at everyone is toothless ;-)

@glupson

I don’t know if you read my post before certain persons-who-dish-it-out-on-their-own-website-but-flag-critical-posts-here got their way and had it removed but...

You are experiencing just what I wrote about. “Walking” is simply a term the OP applies as he wishes, arbitrarily. If you are at all critically minded you will never have that term used for whatever you try.

You are dealing with a religious type of behaviour. It’s like prayer: negative results will never be counted. If you don’t get the claimed results, it can only be you who is to blame. You are doing it wrong! Yay for unfalsifiable beliefs!

jf47t

What is a claimed result? It reads like you are saying that any time someone plays something and describes what they heard it is a claimed result.

Yes, that’s right. That’s what the word “claim” generally means. Are you unfamiliar with that word?

I’m on a long train ride in Europe (hence browsing on my phone for a bit).

Thats a claim. The claim itself doesnt establish it as fact. It may be true or false. And it can be discussed as to whether it’s a believable claim on various grounds.

glupson made a claim that he tried one of the MG tweaks. You have expressed skepticism about that claim. Interesting how easily skepticism comes to you for other people’s claims, and it’s reasonable to express that skepticism. But if anyone directs their own skepticism at your claims you start calling them “trolls.”

How about a level playing field where people can be honestly sceptical about your claims aren’t simply dismissed?

Notice Michael immedialy wanted more evidence for a claim - e.g. photos of glupson’s tweaking?

Why then does Michael immediately become allergic to evidence when asked for something like measured changes in a signal before and after such tweaks to capacitors? Or in this case, between an amplifiers with a case on or off?

Btw, what is being discussed here regarding the amplifier case isn’t “ the hobby of listening to music.” My son is currently listening to music on his iPhone, which doesn’t require taking apart the iPhone. What we are discussing are technical claims made on behalf of the type of tweaks MG suggests, in this case that removing cases produce audible signal changes.

Robert,

The issue mentioned in your observation certainly has been an obvious one.   I’ve been heavily involved in many forums and discussion groups since around ‘96 or so and I’ve never had a post removed.  Yet in this thread “someone” has flagged and had 3 of my posts removed!   

Could this be the same person who has continually yelled “troll” in this thread yet no one else has been thin skinned enough to have those posts removed?   Could it be the same person who in the self-protection of his own forum liberally rags on people here as trolls and other disparaging comments, but where replies correcting his mischaracterization would surely be blocked?

Nah, couldn’t be!....

jf47t

above is what is called a fake statement, as anyone can read on this thread

Infortunately for you, anyone on this thread can see how assiduously Michael avoided answering questions raised about measurements that would support his claim that tied and untied capacitors alter a signal audibly.

Can you point to where Michael replied with such measurements? A link perhaps?

What Michael said was "let’s set up a lab and test these claims together in real time for everyone to witness".

So Michael has set up a lab to test these claims? Good! Where are the measurements showing the signal of a capicitor is audibly altered when untied, or the measurable differences of an amp, preamp, CD player signal with a case on vs a case off? We can presume you are making claims within the same natural world science describes, right, and you are not claiming magic?

Remeber that Michael has already been making these claims as true. He didn’t need our help before doing so, hence if this is really empirical Lab Work, isn’t it reasonable to ask for both a coherent technical explanation of the “problem” AND measurements suggesting the technical parameters have been altered in a way that fixes the problem?

BTW, a link to a cover of widescreen review does not do anything to address the reticence MG has shown on his claims being discussed in this thread.

glupson,

Your interaction with the Tuners reminds me of an episode of Oh No Ross and Carrie.  It’s a really entertaining podcast where Ross and Carrie “join” or interact with various fringe movements and report on the experience:

http://ohnopodcast.com/

The recent Flat Earther episode was a fun listen.   I think you’ll notice some similarities to what is going on here :-)

Hi ml876ag,
I'm just curious if you could produce something beyond an insult?
Can you, for instance, show something I wrote to be unreasonable or not true? Thanks.

@jf47t

Of course it doesn’t. The can of worms that keep getting opened on this thread are from the trolls making claims that their questions don’t get answered.

Ok, that’s your spin.
Now try on for the moment putting it the honest way:
In this thread Michael Green has made claims about how altering certain features of a piece of gear changes the sound, and some people have asked reasonable questions about those claims which Michael Green has not answered.

Really, just try even saying that out loud. Being able to speak the truth is good for the soul.
Instead, you continue to imply that those of us noting Michael’s evasions are "trolls," where in fact, we are simply reporting the fact Michael hasn’t answered the questions.  A fact you can't show to be wrong, so you continually resort to name calling.

What is it that you have against basic decency and honesty? Why can’t you just admit the questions I asked of Michael - e.g. on what technical basis do capacitors change the sound signal when untied and are there measurements to verify this? - have not been answered by Michael?
They are simple, obvious, basic questions any "engineer" making a technical claim, or anyone familiar with empirical science, would expect to be asked and would have an answer for. Imagine an engineer in a professional engineering society makes the claim that untying capacitors alter the sound signal. He can absolutely expect, as sure as day follows night, to be asked questions like "what is the technical basis for that claim, what technical parameters change, and what measurements support this claim?"
The fact that Michael Green refuses to answer these simple, logical, normal empirical questions - not "demands" as you need to characterize them - speaks volumes about his insecurity in the face of such questions. The fact Michael may have ever measured anything before - e.g. resonant qualities of X material, or taking room measurements after placing room treatments - does NOT justify every claim he makes. So pointing to some other incident of Michael measuring something does not answer the specific questions about, say, the capacitor tweak he claimed in this thread.

On your...sorry...Michael’s...thin-skinned account that my asking such questions is what a troll would do, then engineering and scientific community would be comprised of "trolls" because they...gasp...."demand" answers to these types of questions.

Let’s try an empirical prediction:
If this post is answered by jf47t, we can expect something along the lines of "Michael, The Great Empiricist, answers those questions ALL THE TIME!"
Yet we can predict he will not, in fact, answer the questions I’ve asked.

Nothing evil is going on here from the other side. Just simple, normal questions like "can you give more information in support of that claim?"But jj47t/Michael Green have painted "themselves" into a corner from the start by first calling out people asking such questions as "fakers" and "talkers" and trolls, Trolls, TROLLS! (I’ve never seen such liberal use of that epithet!). So now they can’t answer these questions in an honest way such as "I don’t have such measurements, but here is why I think the claim has a basis in reality..." because that would be to answer to trolls...Trolls...TROLLS!!!!!!!
This really is the strangest performance I’ve ever seen from a manufacturer.

geoff

Uh, demands for proof and demands for measurements are the tools of the obstreperous and irascible troll.

I love it!
The enterprises of engineering and science becomes, on geoff’s account, "trolling." I’m sure it would perfectly suit geoff’s world if anyone could get up to the podium, make a claim, and not be asked for any backing data or cogent theory. "What? You don’t just accept what I’m telling you about my magic pebbles or teleportation tweaks? TROLLS!"

It’s ok geoff, we know: You weren’t really impugning the methods of engineering and science. It’s actually ok to ask skeptical questions and measure things in those disciplines.

It’s only in desperation, when you don’t have any ammunition against someone’s position, but want to call them a name anyway out of frustration, that you seek any excuse to throw words like "troll" at them.  Someone asks a skeptical question, or for any data for a claim?  I don't like them:  TROLL!
But we do understand how critical thinking and skepticism are "the enemy" to folks like yourself, and your "products."

When are you joining the Tuneland forum? They need more people who think like you there! (Or...anyone...really...)

jf47t,
What’s it like not to be able to engage in honest conversation?
What’s it like to want to evade honest, reasonable questions so badly, that all you can do is repeat calling someone names over, and over and over?
Have you not given any thought as to the look you are giving your company here?
Of course, after implying yet again I and others are trolls for asking questions, instead of showing where those questions were answered (doesn’t exist here) you’ve again produced another empty evasive post simply calling people names. And of course you can’t, and haven’t once, pointed to anything I’ve written that was a "lie" or that was untrue, or unreasonable to ask, or that I’ve "defamed" anyone etc. You are just throwing garbage at this forum, and hoping it sticks. Please...stick to Tuneland for that kind of stuff. You already have a thread going there where you can badly mischaracterize anyone you want and yell Troll! Troll! Troll! without anyone around to push back by pointing to reality.

There’s got to be something in you recognizing what you are doing.
But, hey, since you can’t help yourself, stay tuned for another look at your troll description again....;-)

You've bored MG off the pages ...

Somehow I don't think so....
;-)

"For the on-lookers..."
To those who have visited the Tuneland forum, especially the Tuneland thread devoted to this Agon thread, have you noticed something kind of odd?   Something...missing?



Is there ANYONE we've seen more enthusiastic about Michael Green, and more involved with that MG is doing and thinking 24/7 than his fervent devotee jf47t?
It was jf47t who has mostly taken over from MG here and who posted the links to the Tuneland thread about this thread, and has constantly updated and reminded us about that Tuneland thread.


And yet, jf47t doesn't seem to appear anywhere as a participant on that Tuneland thread (or, as far as I can see, anywhere in that Tuneland forum subsection).


Isn't it....odd...that MG's interest level in this thread remained so high as to create his own ongoing Tuneland thread monitoring this one, and to have jf47t continually show up to interact here and point to that Tuneland thread as it updates, and yet when you leave Audiogon and go to that Tuneland thread, "jf47t" seems nowhere to be found and it's only MG posting?   (With a couple comments from one other participant who doesn't seem to be jf47t)?


Maybe it's worth asking: 


jf47t, given it seems you post so often in this thread, and seem just as enthusiastic as Michael about discussing the "trollish" behavior here, and clearly continually visit the Tuneland thread you keep linking to:  why do you show apparently zero interest in participating in the Tuneland thread? Couldn't Tuneland use more participation from folks like yourself?

That's too bad grannyring.  You certainly struck me as sincere in being open to Tuning. 

Though I doubt anyone who visits Tuneland will be much surprised.  Michael Green's posts on Agon foretell what you would likely find there. It's long on talk...but with very little substance or precision. Mostly just self-promotion posts by MG from what I can see.

@jf47t


The question put to you earlier jf47t was:

If the Tuneland forum is so wonderful and such a font of interaction and information, and you seem to be visiting there so often as to tell us what's been posted over the last 24 hours:  Why don’t you seem to participate in the Tuneland forum? Don’t you have anything to ask...or to offer there?

Especially: why aren’t you showing up in the Tuneland thread about this thread? You sure like discussing tuning and us poor trolls here; why not there, where you have a thread devoted to us that you continually link to?

jf47t,

So you are telling us you use a different screen name on Tuneland?

Ok.

Can you link to a thread in which you actually participate?

The "angry stalkers" bit is an obvious excuse. Nobody is "showing up at your door."  Personally, this thread is the only one I’ve interacted with MG in, despite that he’s started and participated in other Agon threads. And I’ve no interest in interacting with him even in other Agon threads, much less his own forum where he wouldn’t allow people he calls "angry trolls" in the first place. Notice that you specifically keep linking to your Tuneland thread IN the very thread you call filled with angry trolls...but none of those so-called "trolls" are showing up to try and barge in Tuneland threads? We don’t care to.  Because...we aren’t in fact angry at all, despite your paranoia. Absolutely nothing in this thread has angered me at all. I can’t imagine what MG or you could actually say that would be worth getting angry about. You mistake skepticism about some of your claims for anger - that’s your own paranoia talking, not reality. I have in fact wished Michael well, and success, more than once in this very thread. In fact, here I go again:  I wish Michael nothing but success in his life and business.  I'm sure he is a really nice guy to hang around.  And some of his products are intriguing - as I've said numerous times, I'd enjoy hearing his tuned speakers in a tuned room.    I’m just pointing out some sub-par forum behavior when I see it, and simply asking questions, and pointing out they aren’t being answered. I wouldn’t have had to keep pointing this out, if you/Michael didn’t keep suggesting they have been answered....when they have not.  In no way do I have to hate someone, or be "angry" in order to to notice they may be doing great stuff somewhere else...but are behaving problematically in at least one thread.


On the tuneland thread that you relentlessly link to, there are posts by only one other member other than MG. And having encountered that same poster before (who uses the same screen name elsewhere) it’s obviously not you. So why haven’t you participated in the very Tuneland thread you want to keep showing us, and that you are obviously monitoring?


And if you participate in Tuneland...why are you suddenly acting so shy and secretive, when you have continually wanted to promote it for people to check out?


Michael G has no problem linking to his threads there. Grannyring doesn’t seem to have any problem telling us about his post there. And you certainly aren’t shy about people seeing your posts here! What would be the difference in seeing any of your posts in the Tuneland forum you want everyone to visit???? So...how about pointing to anywhere you’ve participated in Tuneland.


After all, you don’t want to leave the impression here that you just poofed into existence in this one lone thread....do you? ;-)

jf47t,

You may want to pass on the last section of that post to MG in case he missed it.  It's probably my last post directed to him :)

And btw, my interest in Tuneland doesn’t go beyond being utterly bombarded by links to it in this thread. We kept getting invited; so we looked. I wish the Tuneland forum success, but I don’t have any interest in visiting it again. I’m glad it serves other folks, but I didn’t see anything that would compel me to stick around there. (Though again, if there were an MG tuned room/tuned speaker set up at a show I’d certainly enjoy hearing it. I don’t doubt something interesting may be going on).


I hope MG’s other Agon threads are more successful than this one.

Cheers,

Of course you aren’t biting.


If you wish to leave the audience speculating as to why not....your choice.


You probably won’t take my advice...but perhaps re-visit this thread some day and consider what you may have done better. My first post...and many afterward, were sincere attempts to simply help you not shoot yourself in the foot. I’m sorry you are so primed to see anyone not immediately embracing everything you say as "trolls" but that only exacerbates the problem.

Again..not angry at all. But I’m certainly puzzled why any manufacturer would behave as you have here. It just seems so unnecessary.

And even though your actions puzzle me, I still very honestly wish you success. I’m happy for any success you have, and for any "Tuner" who enjoys "The Hobby."

Something got your many posts deleted prof.

Correction: *Someone.*

Despite your many accusations of "troll" and "fake" and any number of disparaging insults, neither I nor the others you disparaged were bothered enough to ask a mod to delete any of your insults.
Because...we don’t actually have such thin skins and don’t actually get as angry as your paranoia suggests.
You want to call me a troll? Fine, I won’t cry to a mod and ask your post be removed. I’ll simply ask you to back that up, and anyone will see that you can’t. No need for anger.


Whereas....someone so thin skinned for criticism, who actually *does* get angry enough at criticism that he wants posts pulled, had the mods delete those posts.

Wonder who that could be?


(And you retreated to your own forum to further mock people here as trolls and other names, continually posting the link as a "ha-ha, look at what is being said about you on our forum!" bait. A class act all the way. But, again, hey...it’s your reputation....).

Thanks for the kind words, folks.

Everybody:  Welcome to the "faker/talker/troll" club now, I guess ;-)

Too bad MG won’t ever let himself acknowledge I (or others he’s called trolls) may have sincerely said or asked anything reasonable. But he went down the "you’re a faker/troll" route early and hard, and apparently pride won’t let him back out. Ah well....