System assembled; only a final decision about speakers remains


Thanks to many posters on this forum, I have nearly completed assembling an audio system.

Because I started off my questions on this forum regarding speakers, I’m posting my outcomes here. I’ve not finalized speaker choice. While I took "Speakers first" to heart and attempted to do things that way,  slow production times and the virus prompted me to research and purchase in multiple areas. I wound up getting everything but speakers first.

I am enjoying my system with some loaners at the moment (review to come), and then (if the cosmos allows) I will seek synergy between this system and speakers. My hope is that the speakers ordered (Salk SS6M) turn out to be keepers, but they'll have a 30 day trial period. No idea when I will receive them. Oh, and I need to do some additional thinking about power and wiring, etc. And furniture.

So, to the various posters who chimed in with suggestions and information (I took extensive notes and you are now part of my informal library), here’s what I assembled:

SPEAKERS
  • SALK SS 6M — these are being built (well, after the shutdown is lifted) and then I’ll TRY them for 30 days to see if they work. Others are being considered. Opinions are welcome.
  • Sub: REL 328
AMPLIFICATION
  • QS Linestage
  • QS 60 Monos amp
SOURCES
  • CD transport: Cambridge CXC
  • Streamer: Bluesound Node 2i
  • DAC IT (peachtree) — older; just to tide me over
  • DAC ORCHID — this is my keeper

CABLES

  • Toslink: for CD player
  • Coaxial digital: Analysis Plus Digital Crystal & Audioquest Forest
  • Interconnects RCA: Analysis Plus Copper Oval
  • Power for sources and amps: Pangea Audio AC 14 & 9 SE MKII
  • Speaker cables: Analysis Plus Oval 12

POWER

  • Conditioner: Panamax 1500

hilde45

Showing 22 responses by hilde45

@kenjit I chose the Salks because of the described experiences of listeners and reviewers. They will be built, I will listen to them, I will compare them to other speakers, and I will keep them or send them back. No charts required.
I’m really glad to update everybody and appreciate the help. I look forward to hearing the speakers whenever they come because I think that the people who testified to their quality knew what they were talking about.
And I will definitely look into the power situation. I only paid $80 for that used $500 unit and it’s giving me power for my equipment right now — so I’m very glad to have something. But yes, that is something to sort out. And I appreciate the suggestions about that, too!

@tvad Why wouldn’t my Panamax be doing those beneficial things already?
Worth an experiment. At the moment, my system is very very quiet when nothing is playing.

@djones51

Don't borrow trouble — including OCD! Exactly.
Do I have problems now with noise? Not that I can tell, though some here suggested that I might easily discover an improvement by just plugging things in without the conditioner. Easy enough to test. (Like making a dish without X amount of salt; it can improve by simple subtraction. Not OCD to try that, for sure.)

My goals are simple.
  • Protect my gear. (overall value is not strataspheric: $13k or so)
  • Run reasonably clean power.
  • Not break the bank doing this. (In other words: try to keep this below $1k)
The gist of what has been recommended to me is:
1. Dedicated line.
2. Whole house surge suppressor à la Environmental Potentials EP-20503.
3. Power conditioner.

Because advice comes in bits and pieces and from different people, I do not know if 1, 2, 3 are ALL necessary. For example, if I got a whole house surge suppressor, then wouldn't I just need a multi-outlet for plugging in gear down the line?

@djones It sounds like your new listening room is fine without a dedicated; you just plug your stuff in to protect it, don't have noise — so you're good.
@zx10 Appreciate your input on speakers — Elac, Tekton.
@twoleftears twoleftears — I didn't know that the Panamax fell into that category. Good to learn that distinction.
@tvad Tvad — who could resist a comfy Eames chair? It might almost cause me to take up pipe smoking.
Thanks. I couldn't tell from the EP2050 website's photos HOW that surge suppressor protected the whole house. At least, the photo I saw connected with that product seems to be affecting just one breaker or two. 
Thanks, guys. Without OCD (and not to make light of that condition, so I'll stop using it, now), I like the idea (a) of protecting gear throughout the house, and (b) having something just for my audio gear that I can point at and say, sotto voce, "my bodyguard."
Thanks @b_limo   
so, you’re comfortable running your amps into the wall without protection?
I have seen that advice and I’ve also seen many people say that they would never take that risk with their equipment especially given the crap that’s on our electrical lines or the possibility of an electrical storm. I would be worried that I would forget to unplug it or that the storm would happen in the middle of the night.
Thanks, @almarg  A good solution to varied requirements.

One final question -- because I'm really tempted to just copy your solution:

Do you think that you lose any benefits by attaching a $71 dollar power strip to a high quality filtering unit like the Audience? I realize that you've economized, but I know you must have confidence that that power strip is not compromising the Audience unit. That $71 strip passes muster?
@almarg Thanks, Almarg. I’m curious — why did you choose to run the two-outlet Audience Adept aR2p unit into a multi outlet power strip and then address that with the Shunyata unit to attenuate noise? As the Audience Adept product notes, "the aR2p can provide power conditioning for an entire audio or video system albeit without component to component isolation featured in multi-outlet Adept Response conditioners."

In other words, why not buy a unit which performed the functions of the Audience and the Shunyata combined — a unit which also separates noise from digital and power equipment? Were you economizing or is this a superior way for some reason? [I think I just answered my own question -- the aR6 from Audience is $3495. So it seems you found a way to get the benefit using the 2 outlet unit with a power strip?]
P.S. I found a good review about the Audience here: https://www.stereophile.com/content/audience-ar2p-adept-response-power-conditioner-sweepstakes
Thanks to you both. Good accounts which give me enough confidence for a modest investment.

Two further questions:
1. Would my Panamax 1500 "surge suppressor/line conditioner" be able to simple serve as the power strip? If so, then all I’d need is the Audience?
2. Also -- how old is too old for these Audience units? I see one for sale for $345 but it’s date of mfr is indeterminate.
Thanks, Al. I just bought one online -- 2016. First, I wrote to Audience and found out (a) warranty is still good for 6 more years and (b) warranty will be honored even if I'm not the original owner. Good product, good company. Done. (Just need to get that power strip.)
P.S. Anyone want to weigh in on power outlets that are not crazy expensive (e.g. under $100)?
Why do I want a receptacle? I guess mainly because for a small amount of money I can just cross that factor off my list. I have good power cords, and now a good filter/suppressor from Audience. My outlet might be just fine, but dollars to donuts it could stand some improvement. I could spend $10 I suppose or $50. At this point, it’s so fractional -- and I just negotiated a $50 price break on a half-price used version of the Audience -- a savings of about $425. SO...if there is a chance it could make a difference, I could simply spend $40 and then dismiss "the outlet question."

@djones--gotcha. Receptacles. Yes, I think I found my conditioners' answer. Thanks!
@atmasphere Thanks for returning me to the original (and most important) unanswered question.
There are some basic facts I know to pay attention to with my amp (e.g. it’s monoblock tubes, w/ damping factor is 20, putting out 60 watts), etc.
When I look at potential speakers, some facts are given — their sensitivity, nominal impedance.
I realize, too, that different speakers have different power requirements at higher and lower frequencies, and that often one needs to know the nominal and minimum impedance — or, better, the impedance curve of a speaker.

I have read a lot of articles and even tried a spreadsheet as shared by Hans at this video:
www dot youtube dot com/watch?v=itKqSWH07_Y

What would help me is to have some basic information as to what a speaker’s specs should look like in order for an tube amp of X power to drive it comfortably.

Something like:
Assuming these specific variables (about listening distance, loudness, music type, room size, etc.)…
IF: you have a 60w tube amp with a damping factor of 20,
THEN: make sure you get a speaker that is, at least:
___ sensitivity
___ ohms nominal
___ ohms curve that looks like [insert description]
___ other metric(s)?

Having a rough and ready chart like this could help me rule out of bounds any number of speakers.

The Salk SS6m speakers I ordered mention/show their "ruler flat response" and note that they are "phase coherent in the crossover region." Then, the site gives the usual (pretty vague) specs as
  • Sensitivity 90 db
  • Impedance 8 ohms
  • Amplification 50 watts
www.salksound.com/model.php?model=SS+6M

Jim S. told me that his speakers are driven comfortably with even 30 wpc in a room larger than mine. So that put me at ease. But if I entertain other speakers, it would be great to have a chart to suss them out.
@dill  D'oh! Newbie mistake. I shall channel Professor Housman and conduct a shrouding.
@kenjit I could ask Jim what makes his speakers better, but my guess is he'd do what anyone who makes good equipment would do — shrug and tell me to try them and return them if I don't like them. And I suppose if I ask for evidence of perfect phase coherence, I should use all caps — just to let him know I'm "on to his little scheme"? [I mean, dude — didn't I already say, right at the beginning — that this is simple? Buy, try, keep, or return? I can explain that to you, but I can't understand it for you.]
@atmasphere Thanks for your post and I'm copying a bunch of this into notes. I moved from a Salk 83 db speaker up to a 90db speaker after a conversation with Jim. The cost of the speaker went up, but my required amplifier power went down — and so did the cost. I thought I'd be safe with 60watts tube. At this point, I'll just have to try the 90db speaker and hope Jim was being conservative. Otherwise, it will go back and I'll keep in mind that figure of 93 db and the other good details about the 4 ohms, double woofer, and various ways of tackling the math.
@hshifi I read recently that even with a whole house protector, one should retain something for protection at the wall outlet. Maybe you're just doing an experiment?