I think sgordon was yanking peoples chains but you never know.
The champ is here..... |
Charles of course expensive Simply means costing more money. There is no doubt 100 fuses cost more money than most.
Value is a different thing. There can be value in expensive items. But they are still expensive.
Im glad when anyone finds good value in their purchases. It's a free country. If there is a market for something someone will sell it. |
Geoff,
Better get that selective memory loss checked out.
Even so, you can read right? No need for me to repeat it.
In any case you're forgiven. Just don't do it again.
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Once my system is sounding "right" all I need to do to make it sound better is turn up the volume.
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I'm calling you out again on name calling, Jipkait....
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Unfortunately, I think I know the answer......
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Well there's an interesting new plot twist......
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Personally, guys like "mapman" and "wolf-garcia" crack me up with some of their posts.
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Whew. Thank G-d. I guess I won't return that sense of humor I thought I might have over payed for......
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" I know what these fuses bring to a good system." Charles in all seriousness how many good systems have you heard with these?
How do you know all good systems will respond similarly?
If they do not does that mean the system is not good? |
Op my main point is one can predict how a fuse might sound in another system better or worse based on what they've heard or others say but they cannot know. There is a difference. The prediction could turn out to be right or not for many reasons. But you don't know. No one does for sure.
Just saying. . Applies to all things audio not specifically just fuses, even things that are much better understood how it works like matching impedance
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Great art nourishes the soul at any age.
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Wolf when its a labor of love nothing else really matters now does it?
It's strictly a right dominant side of the brain subjective thing. Us objective left brainers will never get it. And vice versa. |
Like I said, never the two trains shall meet.... :^) Obviously no two things are exactly the same. Its what matters to each and why that differs.
What matters can be subjective or objective or both. Two different ways of assessing value. One can be measured and the other not. We're all mixed bags....just different mixes each. |
Abnerjack,
In the case of Magnepans specifically, I think there is a good chance of both making a discernible difference in that my understanding is the fuse is actually directly in the signal path which is not the case with most electronics. Which would make more of a difference of course like always depends on the details. What are you starting with and what are you going to and what are the differences. I suspect that comparison would be easier with the wires but assuming one actually knows what the technical differences are between two fuses, in teh case of Magnepan speakers its quite possible that a fuse change might make a bigger difference. Of course it all depends. In lieu of facts to base a decision on, one might as well just choose randomly what to try first and go from there. The devil is always in the details. I still am at a loss regarding how fuse direction matters so I cannot offer anything more there than most which is if you think it might matter try both ways and see.
A poster on another thread said he considered cables and interconnects as another component in his system. Do you kind people agree with that sentiment and do you consider fuses to be as significant?
Obviously they are parts of teh overall system as are the room, people listening, resistors, capacitors, and any other smaller part that makes up the larger. The question is always what happens when you change anything and how much does it matter? Myself, I have spent considerable time to-date dabbling with wires hearing differences and using them to fine tune my sound. There is a payoff there I believe in many cases. I have not experienced that yet with fuses but others clearly state they have. I have compared fuses in one case when asked and could not say for sure if I heard any difference consistently. My system sounds just the way I want it to currently so I have no plans to dabble with fuses again soon. There is still a few power cords for my amplifiers that I might consider playing with if time and money permits but what I have performs well and sounds great so no rush. |
^^^ And I have no clue why a finely aged English cheddar tastes so much better than a slice of processed American cheese. Maybe the English cheese makers use Quantum Tunneling? :-) ..
I’m sure a simple google search would easily clarify how and why they are different.
A scientific study could even be done using statistics and sampling to determine which more people prefer if anyone cares but science will never be able to accurately predict what each individual will prefer every time. Unless all of one or the other turns outright moldy perhaps. Probably that would still not stop some from saying they prefer it.
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If it walks like a duck and.....well you know. |
I'm glad everyone is enjoying the music. |
The difference between buying a car and buying a component audio system is that the car comes with selected parts all assembled and the user chooses the parts that must work together in an audio system so knowing something but not necessarily everything about each part is absolutely required to get best possible results.
Of of couse things like integrated amps help make things a lot easier. |
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Mapman, Wolf_garcia, Geoffkait, thank you for your unsoliced opinions.
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Your welcome.
Who exactly solicited yours then? How much do they pay? I could use a few extra bucks.
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It's always squestionable when there is no balance in reporting. Applies to consumer goods as well as politics.
Claims that cannot be substantiated on paper do not help.
Its just the way things are. Why should it be any other way? It should not come as any surprise. |
Music is a much more interesting topic than fuses IMHO.
But plenty of appropriate threads to talk about that or you can always start a new one. Better than than water down one about a technology/product,. The music might sound really good without a Synergistic fuse. it happens. |
I was at Capital Audiofest last week.
No mention of fuses came up but the magnetic wire company that has a lot of fans here had a room.
It sounded fine but no better than the others and certainly not best in show for me. I have not seen others indicate it was either.
Their stuff was playing in perhaps the smallest room there with perhaps the largest speakers and the magnetic products in play all over, even inside the amp supposedly.
They demoed with and without plug in magnets for comparison.
Unfortunately they forget to play the same tracks when comparing.
I asked the guy there how it worked. He essentially said it makes the electrons flow the way they want them to.
So you'll understand my skepticism especially after getting no real results with the Red fuse.
Not saying I'm right and others wrong. Just reporting my findings like anyone else.
If I'm missing something that I do not hear or understand, I can live with that. :^)
I'll stick to things I can understand and that are not shrouded in mystery and hype. I'm sure others will do the same.
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Its possible the folks who hear a big improvement had some issue with their other fuses to start with. How just re-seating a fuse alone could change the sound has already been mentioned.
I have no problem with people saying a product can improve the sound or did for them.
But when I hear only that it WILL improve your sound (or else there is probably something wrong with you), that is when I disconnect because that is never a realistic thing to assert.
These things always depend. The possible outcomes when making a change is always better worse or none.
My outcome was none. So was Wolf’s apparently.
Its possible that we are biased one way but obviously others may be equally biased the other way.
It always helps to avoid absolute pronouncements and keep things real.
Especially when there is no well understood objective reason for claimed performance.
What sounds good or better or not is ALWAYS just an opinion, no more or less valid than any other and frankly there is little in these fuse discussions but opinions since the facts are few and far between when it comes to establishing any truly unique value.
The point is nobody really knows why these fuses would sound better. That does not mean that they can’t, only that it is not a foregone conclusion by any stretch that they will.
Trial periods provide a much needed insurance policy for what may as well be seen as "magic" for all practical purposes, but does not change the facts.
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i finished going through all the product literature I brought home from CAF. Everyone makes superlative claims to help get their product attention. Why should fuses be any different. Heck I can afford a few of these fuses easier than most anything sold there that I liked. And they surely are not likely to make anything sound worse. So have at it. Superlative claims are a dime a dozen. Some might even be true. |
I was a salesman for a few years early on ( and a half decent one) but a software/systems engineer for the last 30 or so.
So I can swing both ways in that sense.
I find the same basic tenets that made me a decent saleperson also serve me well as an engineer.
The main thing is determine the problem people are trying to solve and provide them a product or solution that solves it. Sometimes it exists and can be sold, sometimes it has to be built for the first time.
I'm not finding a big problem when it comes to fuses these days so there you go.
I’m definitely more of a meat than sizzle man.
And yes there is a lot of great coffee out there and chances are no two people are likely to agree upon which is the best.
Maxwell House is pretty darn competitive I find these days with some coffees costing 10X as much, if properly brewed.
Saturdays after the gym about 11:00 - 2:00 or so is my time I often get to sit down with a good cup of coffee and really enjoy my music.
Namaste!
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Yes I never thought much of Maxwell House in the past. Has it gotten better or is it just me?
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"And many engineers tend to be a bit too dogmatic and inflexible in how they approach their work."
No argument there. |
When in product development, I worked with many technical marketing folks and always got along well with them, especially the ones who also valued integrity and accuracy. The best companies always place top value on that.
Also I will add that the creme of the crop when it comes to engineers have extreme confidence in their knowledge and abilities and fear little in that regard. Also pretty much true with the best in most any profession I suspect.
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Its true that "analysis paralysis" is a common plague historically, but in software engineering for example, modern Agile or iterative development paradigms address it.
Older traditional development paradigms often referred to as "waterfall" development have fallen out of favor these days in most any progressive development organization.
Waterfall development depended on thorough analysis of the problem up front to determine a plan for development. That approach fails as problems become too complex to assess completely and accurately up front, leading to either analysis paralysis ie doing nothing until the analysis is complete or heading down a poorly understood path doomed to fail.
Iterative development is more agile because you attempt to build something based on the key known requirements regularly, like once every few weeks and then stop and reassess so what was learned can be applied effectively to the next iterative phase of development.
So analysis paralysis can certainly still exist but is far less problematic as a whole these days than in years past.
Today's complex and fast moving world has no room for "analysis paralysis" in product development.
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With the engineer, its the fear of criticism. Not sure about that. The best engineers strive for accuracy and avoid making mistakes that will have consequences to someone down the road. Almarg is a good example here. Also having a law background puts him in a class of his own. Read up about the Challenger space shuttle disaster for a textbook example. I worked in Huntsville Al. at the time down teh road from Marshal Space Flight Center where those engines were tested. My companies Computer Aided Design software at the time was used to design the shuttle. Human error not technology led to its fate. I was still a young pup but I witnessed how all the engineers I knew were totally shattered that day. |
Hmm it's possible that since wolf believes op is not being entirely transparent with his motivation that he feels he need not either.
Only wolf and op know for sure it seems.
Wi such animosity over such a trivial issue as fuses it's no wonder there is so much hatred and conflict in the world today. |
As with most cases where extreme views are expressed the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.
If if one wants to drop hundreds of dollars on fuses more power to them. I'll never understand why but like anything in high end audio all that matters is satisfaction in the end for whatever reason real or otherwise.
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Btw my system is sounding really good today. Not that it normally does not.
Is is it just me or could that red fuse I stuck in there months ago finally be gelling or whatever it is that fuses do over the course of months?
Could be that after attending the audio show last weekend my senses are more in alignment from the listening workout my ears got. |
Hmm well so far there would seem to be a definite correlation between what people actually pay for the fuse and what they hear.
Isnt it it true that typically expectations going in can influence people’s conclusions?
It’s certainly possible.
The other thing for sure is not everyone is floored by these things Is it possible the fuses they start with are as good or better? It can happen.
These are are realistic possibilities. Who's to say what will happen case by case though.
So far it Seems like if you are inclined to put out the dough chances are you'll not be disappointed. |
Dbarger
I'm with you on that.
Charles,
I suppose I was just making a point. Perhaps heated discussion is a better description than animosity. |
Papa I suspect it's mostly me with my ears having gone through a major training exercise last weekend at capital Audiofest and me listening more intently.
After all I'm just a human being not a microphone. My listening skills do not hold constant all the time. |
joecasey with the personal attacks again. Do you have a job? Stalking me can't pay well.
Nice some people find him funny and condone personal attacks from others.
So much for the "respect" thread. Very hypocritical and disgusting! The neighborhood here just went considerably downhill.
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Charles,
I don’t know Joecasey. You’d have to ask him not me.
No people are NOT free to post anything. Derogatory comments directed at others are not allowed and rightfully so.
Looks like his comment was deleted.
OP seemed to think it was entertaining though.
It had nothing to do with fuses or anything audio though so don’t worry.
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I want to know how you know the case uses Graphene? Not to explain why that might be a good thing again. Please read more carefully!
Its a simple question to answer. Has SR stated this anywhere? Or are you inferring it? That’s all I am asking.
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The scary thing is Geffkait’s assertion that its the shielding nature of the casing used for the fuse (use of Graphene in the casing not the internal filament) that delivers results at least makes sense. The problem is it is only a theory with nothing concrete to confirm it. . Nothing I have seen in vendor literature "technobable" or elsewhere confirms this claim. Am I missing something? Geoff, how do you know this is the case? If it is, you'd think the vendor would say so.
This is an example of what I think Wolf is talking about when questioning SR's literature.
My views are never locked in stone. New findings can always change them.
I’m glad people think they sound good, but that can be said for many things so alone is not much to go on. I guess not many things promoted on this site can be had for a mere $100 or so. I think that is a lot of the appeal. Its a cheap thing to try on the grand scale of things in these parts. Just like Machina Dynamica. Not so much anywhere else. Its like shopping the Nordstrom budget basement. You never know what great deal you might find. :^)
Value is in the eyes and ears of the listener. YMMV.
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Unfortunately Geoff just attacks me and clarifies nothing asked.
Just more of the typical pattern of obfuscation.
Its OK. Most people don't give a rats arse about $100 fuses anyway.
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Yes and there is probably now someone out there who believes that if they do not hear a difference with these things it means their system is not good enough. Time for more upgrades in order to not bottleneck the fuse.. This is all nonsense of course that merely obfuscates whatever few actual facts of value might be had. And the believers seem to have no issue with such claims. Its very good for business though if people buy into it.
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nyname what "stock" fuses specifically have you compared the SRs to to reach your conclusion that they are always an upgrade? Yes not all fuses are created equal. I think most everyone on this thread has agreed with that. Also if you are suggesting that a fuse upgrade (to SR or any for that matter) is always the best advice to give someone who seeks better sound I would say you are not looking at all the possibilities for improvement case by case and putting the cart in front of the horse. Once all the big factors are addressed and things sound "right", then I would say tweak away from there and if its a fuse upgrade you want next then more power to ya. At that point $100 a fuse may not matter much but I would still suggest trying a high quality product that is not marketed exclusively to audiophiles first if money matters. It does to most people I think but clearly not all.
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There is much to be learned from the many opinions expressed in this thread despite there being still virtually no concrete information about the products in question.
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OP, Negative input is in the eye of the beholder. This s not CNN or Fox News. I don’t see participating in a balanced discussion as negative. Everyone has their opinions and the facts supporting some of the claims made are scarce.. The truth likely lies somewhere in the middle. The only times I see this discussion going negative is when individuals are attacked personally for expressing their opinion or experience. If we all stay away from that we can probably all live happily ever after with or without the fuses. |
nyname, OK here is a brief summary of where I stand on the topic of SR fuses.
I tried a donated Red Fuse and heard little if any difference.
I do not think all fuses are created equal.
I also tend to agree with Wolf’s assessment of SR and its marketing strategy in general.
I have been an "audiophile" for 40 years myself and have found little value in genral in very expensive tweaks marketed specifically to audiophiles compared to other comparable high quality products. I tend to look towards pro audio companies for my tweaks, not "high end audio" as represented on this site.
For amps, speakers, and other more technically complex devices, I may and have.
I have heard vendors in person reference threads on this site to promote their products and even refer to specific threads as theirs despite denials by participants of having any association. So I am more skeptical than I might be otherwise that some threads here are not used as free advertising. I'm not saying this one is but its not a stretch to think some might form that opinion.
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Wolf has indicated multiple times to various degrees of detail that he did experience the Black Fuse.
The science behind fuses has also been covered pretty extensively in this thread by Almarg, Atmasphere and others who most would regard as highly expert electrical engineers.
So lots of things beyond mere opinion for a reader to soak in here in order to draw their own conclusions.
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nyname if you really care my posts are all here for you to read and determine if any are insightful or not. Why would you need me to tell you which ones are substantive or insightful? So you can tell me they are not? Only you can determine what adds value or not for you.
If you have specific questions or things you want to discuss just ask. I'll be happy to respond.
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OP,
OP,
I am still trying to truly understand the magnitude of improvement people are hearing with Red and Black fuses.
On a scale of 1-100, what would you rate the magnitude of change heard with the SR fuse versus the speaker/floor isolation tweak?
For me, the isolation improvement was much greater than anything I heard with the Red fuse. The Subdudes and Isoacoustics stands each made huge differences in sound that surely anyone could hear. But only on my second level. Not much difference if used at foundation level on solid concrete floor (with thin dense carpet and padding).
Honestly, if the Red fuse made a difference is was hard for me to identify at all with any certainty. So much less effective than isolation when needed.
The difference in results of isolation of my same speakers on two totally different levels of my home acoustically show how even potentially real and effective tweaks will vary in results depending.
Bottom line is there has to be a real problem to solve first and then an effective solution to address it.
So while I do not think all fuses are created equal, I also believe that the problem fuses address has been solved effectively by many commercial fuse products over the years and for very low cost.
So are the expensive fuses a solution looking for a problem or not? Obviously opinions will vary on this.
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barabapapa, those are very interesting.
Isolating speakers from lively floors is a must usually for best sound. I’ve found it to be one of the most basic and effective room tweaks one can do.
There are many products that do this well. The main thing is find one that works for you and your speakers best.
One will be amazed how much better most systems can sound when interactions with lively floors are minimized. Muddy bass is reduced and everything is cleaned up resulting in improved imaging and soundstage as well. It really lets you hear your gear more and not so much the room.
I use Auralex Subdude platforms under my large floorstanders and Isoacoustics brand stands under my monitors and both are similarly quite effective.
These are good examples of products that solve a real problem simply for very reasonable cost that will appeal to many. |
