Synergistic Red Fuse ...

So even though I am not hearing a difference so far that's two scores now for Synergistic Research in any case  1) 500V rating would appear to denote an unusually rugged and durable product and 2) good customer service.

Its to be expected that some will hear differences and some not with many more esoteric products.  

So given all that I would say the Red fuses are a sound product possibly worth the investment for some but probably not all.   That's not so bad, is it?

Myself, I would probably only buy a fuse from an audio specialty company for a premium only if I hear a clear difference I like.  Otherwise,  were I to need a fuse, I would probably go with a quality product for much lower cost from a commercial electronics supply house,   just like I often end up going to products from companies that deal with pro audio rather than home/high end for effective tweaks at reasonable cost.

One thing I wonder is how many people actually take the time to a/b the sound with 2 fuses repeatedly. That is what I tasked myself to do. Gotta admit I feel pretty silly now having spent time doing it and not hearing much of consequence. If I had bought the fuse instead of just testing a loaner for free, I would probably pop it in and just leave it there no matter what since I made the investment and the thing seems to sound fine. Once I did that, as time passed, it would become even harder to clearly associate any changes I hear to just the fuse. Heck I change nothing for months sometimes and things never sound exactly the same to me. Is it me? the system? The fuse? The humidity and barometric pressure? Who knows. As long as it sounds good in general day in and day out, and it makes me want to listen more, I am happy and will not sweat those details.

OP,

Also I will comment that I think I heard similar aspects to the sound that you originally identified when you started the thread in that I was trying to listen for taht and other things as well. At times I thought it might be somewhat associated uniquely with the red fuse, other times not. At the end of my session I was not sure I could identify a consistent advantage for either fuse.. So the contest was a wash for me in the end.

When done, I left my original fuse in in that it came with the unit and I could not identify a reason to change. The ARC sp16 has easy rear panel access for changing fuses, which helped greatly. I probably changed fuses up to a dozen times for comparison while listening. Other units may involve more work, removing covers, panels etc. If that were the case, and I had actually purchased the red fuse rather than using a free loaner to eval, I think I would have been more inclined to just leave the red fuse in and move on.

One thing interesting to me at this point is I can’t say conclusively that both fuses sounded the same. I definitely think I heard different things at different times, not unlike what Cymbop indicated, sometimes with the same fuse, but the differences were subtle and could easily have just been due to what I was specifically listening for at any particular time. So I definitely did not hear anything that indicated to me that the two fuses always sounded exactly the same. The differences were just very subtle and hard to attribute alone to just one fuse or the other. Just enough to cast some doubt. I started a thread recently asking people to rate the magnitude of various tweaks they’ve tried. For me the magnitude of this one was very low compared to some others I have used for similar cost where the differences were apparent immediately and consistently from there..

I’m thinking towards the weekend when I typically have more time to listen I will pop it back in and give it a more extended listen, probably using my much larger OHMs  where I spend most of my preferred listening time, then maybe compare again.

I guess its the mystery of a lot of high end audio that helps keep things interesting. How often does everyone ever arrive at a consensus with anything when it comes to this stuff.

I think I recall at least 2, but who's counting....

Also worth noting that since nobody knows how this fuse works its magic or why it is quite possible that results vary widely case by case. Nobody knows otherwise.  Perception is clearly always in the equation but all gear is different as are fuses being replaced. Its a pot shot, hit or miss, call it whatever as best I can tell.

How can anybody state that the fuse will always work when nobody  can explain why?   There is no basis for that.    Its a potshot at best.  If it sounds like a winning proposition then go for it.   Just put the dern thing in and enjoy it.   If you enjoyed your gear pre-fuse you will after as well most likely.   Maybe more just knowing that very nice fuse is in there.

One rather mundane thing I just thought off with the red fuse.   Every fuse I have ever used is glass.  When the fuse is suspected of blowing, you easily examine the filament inside through the glass  for a gap to confirm the fuse is gone and replace.   

Can't see inside the red fuse.   If no sound in device, you either have to take a meter to the fuse and measure resistance or just have a known  good backup available to swap in and try.  But you can't tell if the red fuse is good or not  by just examining it. 

I know that's not very exciting compared to sound of fuses but still worth noting.    Always a good idea to keep a spare good fuse or two around.  You might suffer with a normal fuse for a short time for that then order and replace that with a new red or black fuse eventually.

Geoff. For someone always declaring straw man arguments of others you sure are a champ.  What does a tice clock have to do with fuses?   Answer:. Nothing.  

No place for skeptics in Machina Dynamica world.


GEoff note: I am actually using the fuse.   So am I still a "skeptic"?

Are you using the fuse?   Have you heard the results.  OR are you just strawmanning?   

One thing for sure is you are a vendor selling products that have many skeptics.  I understand your pain.  :^)

I would not pay hundreds of dollars for what I've heard so far.  So not a hit here quite yet.   

The Strawmen are flying now..... :^)

Let's get Warren on this thread if someone at ARC can add insight to the SR fuses.

Look, bottom line is you get a 30 day return period, right, so you can return it if not worth it by then.  So there you go.    No risk really to try.   Please just be honest and report your results here either way.   Don't let anyone intimidate you.

GEoff have you specifically used SR Red or Black fuse, the topic of this discussion?

Are you saying all "audiophile" fuses perform the same?


If so what differences did you hear?

Talking about other products or fuses and using that as basis for the particular products in question is a strawman argument. If that’s the best you can do then so be it. Nothing wrong with that other than it means essentially nothing in the context of this discussion about SR fuses.

maybe I’m too rebellious as I tend to stick with my instincts, and my instinct still tells me to avoid herd mentality in all things especially those with suspicious or personally illogical underpinnings.

No herd mentality? Hmm, well you are a wolf, right, not a sheep? :^)

Oh boy. Here we go.

Call me a bad person but I am dot agnostic personally.

I also think I need to find some new interests.  These fuses are like a black hole.   Even the red ones.

If someone else is interested in trying the 3A slo blo Red fuse OP sent me let me know.   I'll forward it on if OK with OP.    Otherwise I will pop it back in and give it some more time.   Or return it to OP if he can use a spare.   Its not doing much for me so far.  Maybe others will have more luck.

jwm

Yes at least in some cases.

I have dnm reson, harmonic tech and mit ics and i always hear a clear difference between these.

Note these three are each very different designs and the sound reflects that. Some ICs are more similar than different and I would not expect to hear as much if any difference in those cases.

Regarding feet under components, yes, always when called for with a turntable in particular. Also isolating stands or platforms under speakers when resting on lively flooring like suspended plywood. I’d recommend that to anyone. No difference with same if solid concrete foundation.

The difference between these tweaks and the fuses though is the fuses are essentially a black box with little info to work with regarding how they work or when they are most effective or not. So its a potshot/hit or miss. Almost every tweak enhancement has known dependencies that determine effectiveness. You are shooting totally blind until you try with fuses. That’s really the only objection I have and why I would not recommend them to others. There is nothing to base saying they will work or not on other than what I hear. Each case could be quite different and results vary as we are seeing here.


Here’s a thread I started recently recapping relative effectiveness of tweaks for myself and others who post.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/most-effective-tweaks-2

There is no reason to expect everyone will agree on effectiveness of any specific tweak because results almost always depends on other external factors and people try different things depending on their needs and goals.

I'm checking out of this love fest now.  Just not feeling it.  

Yep. And Jeb Bush should have won the republican presidential nomination as well.

I did not get the results expected. That’s a fact, not a strawman argument. Others did so I am glad for them.  

Why is Geoff so determined to discredit my findings?   Its just one data point.   I guess he gives it special weighting.   I am honored.

"Oh, brother, this is getting weirder and weirder. In any case it looks
like you're on your own, Scooter."

Good news for me that you are not on my side at least.  

Yes thanks to op for lending me the fuse.   It'll go back to him or I will pay him for it if I decide to keep it.   I should get some more listening time in this weekend. 

Dave it would take me a long time to put 75 to a hundred hours of burn in time on the fuse.   I typically get in a few hours a week of listening.   I do not leave the arc tube preamp on when not listening to save life of tubes.    I'll do the best I can though.  We will see.   The book is still open for me.  

If the fuses are directional and it matters, it should not be a mystery.

Do what OP suggested early on. If you have a question or issue go to the source (Synergistic Research) ask your question and let the experts resolve it.

If you find out anything new of interest, please share with others here.

" "Al’s a bit of a fence sitter with things like this. "

My guess is, as an obviously very accomplished, seemingly altruistic, unbiased and knowledgeable EE who loves music and audio, (not to mention a very precise thinker and communicator), Al would rather make decisions that are consistent with the technical facts. So the more facts to base things on the better to help jump off the fence.

Just my gut assessment....

By the way that combination of things is very hard to find. Congrats to Al’s parents!

There is a uniform ethereal quality to the music tonight.   

Yes, just buy them and try if interested. Return within 30 days if not floating your boat.

Is that the end of the thread maybe? What else really matters that has not been covered?

I guess we’ll find out. :^)

Maybe once we solve this problem we can all then move on to world peace.

Wolf, 8000000 volt burn in of a 500V rated fuse doesn’t come cheap. Imagine the electricity bill alone. Not to mention hazard insurance for the folks actually in charge.   Do they have that in China?

Namaste!

Well I guess if one cared enough one could easily call Synergistic Research and ask any question they like.   Nothing like getting info straight from the horses mouth.   There is probably a simple yes or no answer to most questions.

If I get the urge to actually buy a fuse from SR, that is what I will likely do prior.   There should be no need to guess if one has questions.

Seal it in my heart and mind.  Johnny Cash performing before me on solo guitar.  Is he talking about the fuse?  🙏

Les Mis soundtrack now. Meh.  Never my favorite recording  but doing fine.  

Ok now l via l viaquez by Mars Volta from Francis the Mute.   Here's some potential ear bleed material that might chase many out of the room.  It has its edge but nothing that probably should not be there in the first place.   This is rough but I'm surviving.   It's not the fuses fault.  Another just par for the course. 

Papa I always feel the vibe with my stuff running the big Ohm 5s.   Feeling it tonight as well.  Hifi is a team sport.  I'm throwing just under 20k at the music with this system.   The fuse is playing with the team very nicely.   How much it is contributing uniquely is still no easier for me to say.  But I like what I hear and would rather just listen than muck around with fuses as you advised. 

Santa Clog.  Klezmer anyone?   Rough Guide series seldom disappoints.   Very nice.  Trench town rock by bob Marley.  Wailers on harmony vocals I think coming through nicely.  Bass line holding together nicely.  Fuses seem up to the task along with all the rest. 

I'm heading down to chill to some music now.  Will pop the red fuse back in and see what happens.  

Astro lounge by smashmouth.  Sounds very good.   Visi d'art from Tosca.  check.  Jet by PM and Wings.   A track I know well.    Not hearing anything radically different but sounds great as usual.  

Everything you want by vertical horizon off one of those now sampler CDs.  Very listenable.   No harsh edges.  If I close my eyes I might be fooled.  

You get the picture.  Things sound very good.  The fuse is definitely not embarrassing itself. 

Charlie Haden and Kenny Barron the very thought of you.  Fine recording just piano and upright bass.  I am there!

Papa very kind of you. If I I keep the fuse which seems likely I will want to maybe I can send something your way to try in exchange.  I have some spare Ics and such sitting around. Plus various other things.   I'll contact you at some point soon to discuss. 

The Johnny Mann singers what the world needs now is love sweet love on readers digest melodies and memories collection.  You've never heard how good Muzak can sound off your daddy's radio.  Artificial stereo mixing in the recording but fools me who cares. 

Finally for the night I'm queuing up seventh sojourn cd by the moody blues one of my favorites and a recording I know well.   I posted a review here years ago that's probably still around. 

Things are sounding really good. Some Neil Young Harvest Moon, Hair original Broadway soundtrack (one of my favorite bass guitar rock performances).   Now some opera on RCA Red Seal.  Awesome.   Squeezebox touch on random play so getting a nice random sample of my music library to listen to. 

Rhapsody on a theme by Paganini from Somewhere in Time soundtrack.  Very average recording but did not seem to matter. 

Temptations cant  get next to you.    A little closed in but convincing nonetheless. 

Soundstage is wall to wall about 22 feet or so and totally detached from speakers.    But that's par for the course for the Ohm F5s in my largest listening room which also happens to be L shaped. 

Im just listening and not mucking with changing fuses.  The red guy is in there sans quantum sticker thingy. 

Stones good times bad times.  Good times tonight I would say.  The music is sucking me in. 

Belshazzars feast on Rca red seal again. Orchestra and choral work and very good recording.  A nice challenge.  Again very ethereal. Lots to hear in this one. 

Things sound good papa.   I have no issue leaving it in. 

Smoky Robinson tracks of my tears from the wonder years soundtrack box set on laser light label.  Awesome. 

Well if teh Black Fuse truly uses Graphene as claimed then it might well be more conductive than silver.    How about in teh interest of science open up a Black fuse and report on the contents for us?

If the graphene claims can be verified independently that would score another point for SR and also help justify the cost further.

It could be like those flavored drinks,  yeah there is a little pomegranite in there but its mostly sugar and artificial flavorings.

"Skeptic" mopman out.

Georgelofi,

I have no doubt that no fuse is likely the best fuse for performance but I’ll pass on that. It is what it is. If I need better sound I’ll figure out some other way to get it beside eliminating the fuse that the designers deemed wise to put in there..

" Are you noticing while listening to your Ohm 5 system that instruments have a more tactile organic presentation?"

If there is a difference it is very subtle but this is as good a term for what I think I might be hearing different as any.   The thing is I am not really hearing a clear difference with recordings I am most familiar with.

 Are you finding yourself more immersed into the music than is usually the case?

I was immersed last night but usually am when I am relaxed and able to focus on the music and not other things.

Are you finding yourself listening to entire recordings/CD/vinyl/high-rez downloads, instead of jumping around from recording to recording and/or cut to cut? 

Not enough listening yet to say.   In general, sound quality hardly ever prevents me from listening to particular recordings.  I find most to be involving even if technically limited.  As long as no clear unintended distortion is there.   That was a big goal for me putting together my setup, to be able to listen to and enjoy all music.

jafree, I need to pick up more of the Hayward mixes.     I think I have his version of In Search Of the Lost Chord and maybe Octave but that's it.

OP,

One thing I should say is that I am not one to continually pick apart how my stuff sounds.   I've managed to get past all that with the setup I've assembled currently.   The fuse is there and sounding good.    It may be  providing some change in the sound.   It sounds really good fuse in or out.  If there are differences, they are subtle so either way works.   I dabbled with a/b compares the other day and am done with that.   The fuse will likely stay in now that its there.   If it blows would I replace it?   Dunno yet.  I'll wait to cross that bridge.  I am not likely to be running out and replacing all my fuses with these though.

Papa also someone above pointed out that the fuse ARC put in their unit appeared to be not your typical Walmart variety fuse.

I would agree. The slo blow fuse that was in my ARC sp16 looked quite substantial and nothing like the slo blos we used to sell at Radio Shack. Some thought appeared to go into it. So I don’t think its safe to say that those making our gear always give fuses the short shift. There are many reasons why ARC has been as successful and been around as long as they have. They make great sounding gear to start.

Also I noted earlier that back in my hifi sales days, I recall convincing myself that slo blo fuses made more sense for use in hifi gear than fast blo and developed a preference for those based on teh gut feel that every slo blo fuse I have seen has a more substantial filament and is more forgiving of current passing through and I think its a safe assumption that teh fewer bottlenecks anywhere the better..

Its also almost always the case that one can only judge something new in comparison to what came before it. The quality of fuses being replaced by audiophile fuses surely varies widely. That alone could account for why different people hear different results. I tend to downgrade any review of any product when the reviewer fails to acknowledge what the gadget he thinks sounds so great is replacing.

So for me, its never been about whether a fuse can sound different or not. Its more about the value proposition of various options. $100 is small fry to pay as part of a 5 digit system. Yet there may well be other commercial fuses out there of similar quality still for less than $1. That’s still a huge difference to justify. When the time comes to replace a fuse, I will surely still consider all the alternatives based on pure technical merit.   If the $1 fuse does not cut it, no big loss.