Swapping the MMF 5 for an SL-1210M5G

Congrats!!!

So quick update to everyone that partook in this thread. I finally swapped in my Technics SL1210M5G into the system over the MMF5.

I put them back to back and listened to them for two days.

Then I packed the MMF5 away and set up the Technics permanently.

What a lazy table! The Technics SL1210M5G has amazing control and is great at keeping time. Absolutely wonderful player. I installed the Dynavector DV-10X4 on it and better, tighter control on the bass as well as maintaining although I've noticed that the mids and highs are a little bit brighter than before. This might be a cartridge issue? I was also looking into getting the AT 440mla for this.. any opinions on this?

I'm slowly looking into mods right now from KABUSA and seeing what they recommend. I've heard the damping fluid does the most in terms of bang for buck. Any feedback on this part here would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again for all your help, everyone! You've really been able to help me make a great decision!

Tvad,

If i am not mistaken the stylus pressure as well as the antiskate is to be set at 2 for the benz micro ace right?

Michael

Tvad,

The noise is only when the needle is on the lp.....if you lift the needle and the lp just spins there is no noise!

I have attached the ground wire......

I am hearing more than music if i walk up to the tt when there is no volume on.....i am hearing some music from the needle on the record but also hear noise perhaps from a dirty platter or perhaps the tonearm height should be raised?

tvad, did you need to alter the tonearm height with the benz micro on the technics?

***No. This is not normal. I've never heard what you describe on any turntables I've owned.***

I think he's referring to hearing music come off the needle. Perfectly normal.

I am also noticing for very quiet ballads and in between tracks some noise not hum kind of like a muffled sound and on occasion but not often some pops. Is it a fair guess that this means the vinyl needs to be cleaned?

I also noticed that when I switched my preamp from phono to cd, you could hear noise at the turntable itself where the needle is. Is that normal?

Michael

Hey i finally got a cartridge that is a good match thanks to tvad....man its SWEET....sounds real nice on the first spin even though cartridge say 20 hours break-in. I have no isolation other than the tt's own feet and the wood top of audio shelf componet rack its sitting on.

Only thing is that there is slight hum once can hear when no music is playing...the groun wire is connected...hum in speaker is there....no hum when playing cds!

Any hum advice since this can't be normal!

Michael

06-20-08: Tvad
... The largest benefit with the Sumiko or ZuPreme headshells is their azimuth adjustment...IMO. The Technics headshell does not allow for azimuth adjustment.

The azimuth adjustment is certainly nice. The SL12x0 tonearm itself can be corrected for azimuth as well, though I don't know how. Kevin at KAB does, however, and it's one of his QA routines he performs on each Technics DD before he sends it out.

The Sumiko/Zupreme headshells offer a couple of other advantages as well. First is if you need the extra weight for cartridge matching, such as the Denon DL-110/160 and Audio Technica AT150MLX.

Also, I don't have the sophisticated gear to measure it, but I *suspect* that the Sumiko HS is less "ringy" and more rigid. I certainly get a more linear, less "woofy" sound with excellent upper bass clarity with my Sumiko and ZuPreme (I have one of each) headshells than I got with the Technics. To be fair, however, I had a Shure M97xE on the Technics and that could have been part or all of the problem.

It also has better headshell leads. The same leads included on the Sumiko cost $16-20 just to upgrade the Technics wiring to what's standard on the Sumiko.

Finally, the Sumiko/Zupreme HS's have two alignment pins on the bayonet mount instead of one, so you probably get more rigidity at the headshell/tonearm joint.

Tvad,
Okay got you, Well I hope its 12 grams without counting the technics extra headshell weight, because if not then I guess it would be 16 grams..

It works perfect just as is.. But I do have the headshell weight I took it off immediatley and seemed to work dead on when using a digital stylus gauge, and got excellent results off the bat, and did not want to mess with it unless there was some magic reason to do so... Thanks

Johnnyb53, Tvad

So let me ask, the M5g Headshell with headshell leads is 7.5 grams? The Denon with a 12 gram shell should suffice? Now Technics supplies the headshell with a 4 gram additional weight as well bringing the total up to 12.5 grams just a tad over this Sumiko shell.. So why not do that for free and try right?

I am going to give this a shot myself, so tell me guys if I do the stock headshell with the 4 gram weight screwed in and the denon 301 II which states its 6 grams etc... I should get this optimal magic figure of 10 to 12hz?

Thanks

06-20-08: Tvad
The Cartridge Database resonance chart for the 103R indicates that no tonearm mass from 4gm all the way to 30gm will get the resonance to 11Hz.

Right you are. I should have used the chart instead of relying on my math. Even a heavy headshell only gets the 103R into the 13's.

I do wonder, however, if the DL-103 series should be calculated at the stated compliance of 5 or figured more as 7 or 8. The Catridge Database does mention that Denon cites their compliance at 100 Hz instead of 10KHz (as, presumably, other cartridge mfrs do), which could result in a higher figure.

For example, if you use a 15g Technihard headshell and pretend the DL-103 has a compliance of 7.5, resonance calculation goes down to about 10.9 Hz.

At Denon's stated compliance, the best I can come up with (using a 15g headshell) is about 12.5 Hz. Time to tape some pennies to the headshell? :-)

For all this talk about the DL-103 series, you can get an AT150MLX, AT OC9 II, or Denon DL-301 MkII to easily match to an SL12x0 arm at 9-10 Hz, usually with the 12g Sumiko (or equivalent) headshell.

With a 12-15g headshell (e.g., Sumiko, Audio Technica Technihard) in lieu of the stock 7.5g one, yes.

Do the numbers support the Dynavector 10x5?

06-19-08: Tvad
I'm withdrawing my endorsement of the DL103R with the Technics SL12xx, because according to the resonance calculator on cartridgedb.com, the Denon 103R is not a good match for the 12 gram Technics tonearm. It's well out of the green zone for acceptable matches.

But if you swap out the very light Technics headshell for a 12g Sumiko or LPGear, or a 15g Audio Technica Technihard, you can get the resonant frequency down to the 11's. Add the fluid damper and it flattens the resonance out, wherever it is.

All is not lost.

Personally, I'm grooving right now to my brand new AT 150MLX. Mounted on an LPGear Zupreme HS, the resonance comes right in at 10 Hz, plus I have the fluid damper. It's a beautiful match. The cantilever on that thing is amazing. It's so thin you can only make it out by the gleam of its gold plating.

Sticker could say "I am one of Psychicanimal's children."

I want a bumper sticker that says "I was using a Technics 'table before the audiophiles thought it was cool."

I moved from a Linn turntable to the Technics SL-1200 MKII, and I couldn't be happier. I haven't done any modifications at all yet. My first one will probably be the cone feet from Parts Express.

-Dusty

Denon DL301 I use it... It kills a 103 anyway, higher output as well, far better body and stylus stock form no need for ebony bodys, or other tweaks, or step up transformers.

Darn there is an inventory problem on the dl-103 so will také a week to get....a different dealer is offering me a benz micro ace low output for $400. It lists at $550 but since its been now renamed the benz micro ace s, he can give me a deal on it. should I counteroffer $350?

If i splurge for the benz micro ace then cannot afford for now other improvements other than feet+butcher block. Thoughts on denon dl-103 Versus benz micro ace?

Thanks

Michael

103, nice move. When you are ready (further on down the road) try putting a wood body on the 103. :)

The Sumiko Headshell and Denon DL160 cart are a winner on the Technics. I did not want to have to mess around with input impedence on my preamp so I skipped the Denon 103.

Call Kevin at KABUSA.com. Nobody knows these tables/mods better than him. He will point you in the right direction.....very properly....

So I just saw a craigslist ad for 2 M5Gs that hopefully haven't been sold yet. Ideally I'll pick them up this weekend. So if anyone is potentially in the market for a M5G and a (turntable) coffin, I might be posting them soon on a-gon...

I'm excited about that... We'll see how it sounds stock first.. then i'll consider working mods into it...

Any suggestions on the order of mods from most significant to least significant improvement? (If you could give a ball park price to the mod too, that would be great!) Thanks!

Sorry to hi jack thread but..
got my KAB fluid damper yesterday after installation I played a few records that I am very familiar with and the change is not subtle. I am still trying to evaluate but I like what I hear so far.
BTW- for those getting the dampers, now that the new batch is in and is shipping, be very careful not to over tighten the set screws- they will strip very easily. Both the stainless screw and the aluminum part are relatively soft....talk about ruining your day.
This might be the most significant upgrade that I got from KAB. BTW I am using a Goldring g1042 cart that was recommended by Kevin, It seemed somewhat veiled at first but as I put some hours on it, seems to be opening up quite nicely. Could be a sleeper at $400 or so.

If you can't get the money back on the Shure, you can keep it around for testing dodgy used records before playing them with the Denon. Also, when the Shure damping brush is deployed, it enables the Technics arm to track records so warped as to be otherwise unplayable.

But if you add the KAB fluid damper, that will accomplish the same thing (and more).

For future reference, if you want a low-output moving coil cartridge that's very arm-compatible with the Technics, get an aftermarket Sumiko or LpGear Zupreme headshell and mount either an Audio Technica OC9 II or Denon 301 MkII. Both are available at $299, have very modern, low mass cantilevers, and mounted on a 12g headshell, have a near-perfect cartridge/arm compatibility (resonance at 10Hz).

You will also realize big gains in dynamics every time you improve the footing and platforming of this turntable.

If you want to keep it cheap and under your wife's radar, get a set of Dayton threaded brass cones from PartsExpress to replace the Technics feet. Place the spiked turntable on a butcher block cutting board. You can get a 1-1/2" deep one from Ikea for $25, or a thicker nicer one by Cuisinart from Lowe's Home Improvement for $50. Then put shock absorbing footers under the cutting board. You can use Vibrapods at $6 ea. or Mapleshade Isoblocks made of cork & rubber for the same amount of money.

These do wonders for bringing out the dynamics and inner detail the Technics is capable of.

Also, let everything break in, and you may want to get some Technics bearing oil and lube up the motor bearing real well. You never know how much may have spilled or dried up during shipping and warehousing. When I put some in I noticed an immediate improvement in speed smoothness and lowered noise floor. Anything you do to lower noise floor will improve your dynamics.

I just ordered the highly regarded classic denon dl-103 "low output" cartridge that some use for the technics...

Thanks for the help!

Michael

Well the bottom line is its not the table.. it’s the setup of the table and your willingness to do this as correct as possible at this ponit. You made your own assumption correctly, you know you have too much invested to have it fail at this point… They should be able to get you like an audio technica OC9 or whatever I believe and it is about 299 on a sale, It has excellent reviews and you can find the right impedance settings running your MC phono stage I am sure…

But also HIGHLY suggest on learning about table setup, so you can tweak it out and understand what changes in certain parameters will effect what, I suggest playing with the VTA(arm height) trying to use a ruler and leveling it out on the M5G table, also having a 50 dollar Digital Stylus gauge to help you tweak the weight on your cart correctly and even have an idea how heavy or lite you are which will help get optimal bass and treble response and also helps peace of mind so you know realistically how optimal you have everything set up.. Also table isolation and the mats will be a big thing on any table..

So here is your issue, you do not want to spend more, but to justify your journey here at all especially with the front end equipment you have, believe that you will in time need not only the right matching cart, but several decent accessories/Tools to pull the most out of your analog setup if you want to be as good as you know that dartzeel system should be for the money.. So keep the table and patiently acquire all the knowledge and stuff needed to get you to the next level.

I went thru a similar growing pain a few years back and finally figured out, not only do you need a good table and phono stage which you absolutely have, but clean cared for Vinyl which will also dramatically improve your playback via possible RCM… Good stylus maintenance(maybe oznow Zerodust), Good Cart matching your preamps phono setting capabilitys, Good isolation table and possible Platter mats from like Herbies, Iso, boston, whoever… It takes a little patience to set up and align all the parameters on your table to get this performance you seek out of such a sensitive and powerful setup you have. Its not as plug and play as some other rigs that’s for sure.

Tvad,

You are right but i have reached my audio budget given a wife whose limits i am testing. I am willing to spend around $299....not insisting on less

I wanted to exchange the existing cartridge by the same dealer becaus he wont refund the $ on shure cartridge but that is unlikely because of his limited cartridges and so am willing to spend

Off topic, but...... I have a hard time buying a guitar from guitar center...... can't imagine trying to get an analog rig from them...

Undertow,

you are right about the fisher price comment sadly its appears to be my fisher price level intelligence that is holding me back thus far!

any other low output moving cartridges to consider than the denon or benz micro since the dj dealer does not have a wide selection and probably won't let me return the cartridge for a refund. Mind you its only $100 but nonetheless. He tends to have orotofon, shure, and stanton. Unfortunately, I did not see much there in the $299 and below category that is low output.

thanks

Michael

Yeah the cart is an issue period, first off not that great of a cart. secondly its not set up right on top of it! With a dartzeel phono section you could take a fisher price turntable and sound better than most CD's! Something is matched wrong for sure.

tvad,

thanks for the information....I knew something was wrong....I will try exchanging the cartridge! I should have checked that before buying a particular cartridge but as a newbie I did not think of it. One down side of buying a technics from a dj shop is they certainly don't ask any good questions.

Michael

well I took the plunge and bought the sl-1210m5g turntable. the store installed the shure m97xe. I loaded up on some cheap good lp at Amoeba records. I set it up at home and off to the races I went. My first impressions were not great guys. It does sound natural and organic with good bass but it lacks the dynamics that my reference marantz cd player has. Now granted I am comparing the remastered cd to the original lp version of many albums. I am hoping that despite the fact its not skipping and the speed seems accurate that its not set up right with the tonearm. Might have to call an expert and pay someone to help out here in los angeles and propery set this up.

Michael

06-16-08: Tvad
KAB Technics product page mentions the only difference in the MG5 is better wiring in the tonearm and interconnects. I don't believe the tonearms themselves are any different.

They are a little different, but not in a meaningful audiophile way. The M5G arm has a little knurled screw in the gimbal to help keep the stylus in the groove when scratching. In fact, you have to remove it when adding the fluid damper.

I've read more than one review of a stock SL1200 that criticized its dark, closed-in presentation. I never experienced that with my M5G, which has always sounded extended and open, so my initial impression is that the better tonearm wire makes a significant difference, whether you get an aftermarket rewire of a lower-priced model or start with an M5G.

06-16-08: Tvad
...I'd recommend putting the money toward isolation for the table.

True dat. I've gotten some of my most significant improvements in clarity, jump, inner detail, and dynamics from isolation. In my case, I have $20 in PartsExpress/Dayton threaded brass cones to replace the feet, a $25 butcher block cutting board from Ikea, and Vibrapods I had lying around the house.

If I had a little more to spend on isolation, I'd get Mapleshade brass cones and maple board or KAB's Isonoe threaded feet. Then there's the Gingko Cloud as another viable option. I definitely got a big improvement moving to a less resonant, more rigid rack (that was actually less expensive than the welded steel rack it replaced).

That $45 probably wrought the biggest improvement overall. It also creates a better baseline for hearing other improvements, such as better cartridge, headshell, fluid damper, etc.

Guys, thanks for all the responses... Quick question to all.. I'm sure all of you know that the M5G is much harder to come by on the secondary market... Are the mechanical/design differences significant enough for me to wait around for a good deal on the M5G when it becomes available? I know that it does come with a better tone arm as well as better wires in the tonearm. Rumor has it that the bearings and the drive system are a lil different than the MK2 and the MK5 also??

And there's also the fact that it's black, which is aslways great.