Roll the low end out of the mains with a simple cap XOver, say 80-100Hz. Check out
http://www.ielogical.com/Audio/SubTerrBlues.php for integration advice. I ran a single 10" w TC-50s in 16 * 30 * 7 to good effect. Adding good low end increases realism beyond all proportion. The operative word is good. As a composer friend opined on hearing my system "Every other subwoofer I've ever heard just boomed!" Were I you, I'd opt for something with continous phase and a polarity inversion. Without them, integration will be problematic at best and impossible at worst. Check out 2x ML800x as control is far more extensive than the RELs Ignore everything millercarbon says. |
Why is a subwoofer high level connection genius?
IMO, it's as hopeless as trying to mate a whale with a mackerel.
Rolling the low end in the mains and properly integrating phase and level therewith blows the doors off padding the low end unless one is very, very lucky. |
But I guess "coloring" the sound of the sub(s) the same as you are the loudspeakers is a defendable notion.
Nope. Only true if the subs are 100% transparent. Doubly untrue on tube amps due to transformer/main interaction. |
A simple 6db/oct XO HiPass is easy to make. See http://www.ielogical.com/assets/Audio/PassiveXO1.png for a picture The circuit is just a Y with the appropriate cap in the main amp line. Fc = 1/(2 π R C) where R is Ω and C is in F. 10nF is 0.000,000,010F R is amp input impedance See
http://sim.okawa-denshi.jp/en/CRhikeisan.htmAs a general rule for small 2 ways, ½ to an octave above the claimed -3db point is a good rule of thumb. e.g. for 60Hz speaker, 85 to 120Hz. 85Hz is not exactly ½ octave, but close enough. Use good caps. Teflon or Polypropylene or Polystyrene. Avoid mylar and worse. |
Simply visit their website and they have a page where you can enter the data of your room size and speakers and they will match you with the perfect sub Nonsense! Limited speaker brands, model choices and room parameters. An utter waste of time! Some of the most egregious sonic travesties experienced have included REL subs in dealer show rooms. 20 years ago REL were tops and they still make some very good subs today. Others are price point pathetics. |
These low frequencies are inherent in the acoustic resonance of large spaces. Therefore present in all music that is well recorded in a large space. Nonsense! It’s only present if the material was not filtered, which was often SOP for records. Any or all of the microphone, input channel, mix output, cutter could have been filtered to make the disk more playable. OTOH, some unfiltered large space recording have enough sub-audible low end to put a plate amp sub into thermal shutdown. Adding a 12v 100 or 120mm computer fan run on ≈3.5vdc will keep the amp cool and dramatically extend its life. see http://ielogical.com/assets/WinterBlues/Force_Fan.jpg Airflow is toward plate to force air up the channels. The fan is held in place with the compliant mounting plugs. Even Saving Private Ryan or Telarc 1812 w cannon won’t shake it loose. |
ATC SCM19 has a published spec of
Frequency Response (-6dB): 54Hz-22kHz
Even 1000w is never going to get low end from it or any similar 2-way.
Power requirements fall approximately 50% per octave. Using the SCM19 as an example and rolling the bass @ 80Hz requires an amplifier of only 50w vs 200w full range. The smallish woofer is relieved and more easily accomplishes its task as a mid -bass & -range driver. There is no free lunch and no 6" driver is ever going to have the same output at 20Hz or even 40Hz as at 200Hz or 2kHz in any box of reasonable size.
A purpose built sub with 300w RMS peak has double the power necessary for the 20-80Hz range as the 50 for 80-20kHz. Something in the 10-12" range with similar sonics to the mains & properly set up will add musical realism beyond any amount of power.
IMO, unless one has completely separate HT & music systems, one should opt for musical sub[s] |
There's a reason you see RELs with 2 channel high end systems at the shows where some of mostest, awfulest sound on the planet is purveyed. IMO, any sub w/o a continuous phase control, polarity invert and multiple slopes is a toy. |
any quality sub can be integrated into a system if setup correctly
define integrated
More ≠ Better. Without multiple slopes, phase, polarity and optimally delay integration will suffer except for a very small subset of mains. IMO, some units are jewelry aimed at the ignorant. From where they were 20 years ago, REL has definitely moved in that direction. Chrome feet w logo. PuLeease! |
@soundermn I bin doin' dis a long time. I got da tools. Tryin' to set up subs w ½-arsed controls is a YUGE PITA. IME, high level inputs w a toob amp is a bad idea. Transformers are current devices and many speaker impedances are all over the map in the low end, causing similar input vagaries to the sub. Ergo, the sub is mimicking the eff'd up main low end. BTDT. Roll the low end out of the mains. If they were any good in the bottom, subs would not even be an issue. My tongue is about an inch short from all the times I've bitten it when subjected to systems with ½-arsed subs.
======================= As a composer friend once said on hearing my phase correct sub:
Those little speakers aren't putting out all that gorgeous bass?!?!?!?!? - No, there's a subwoofer at the end of the sofa. - Every other subwoofer I've ever heard just boomed!
- Almost...
======================= Others on later phase correct systems: - Joe Pass is sitting right there!
- Man, your system is so precise!
- etc.
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I did not say REL are junk. They have moved into the HiFi Jewelry market adding things which do nothing for the sound and leaving out things that would. Phase ===== To get low end out of a small woofer requires adding EQ to the amplifier which adds phase shift and group delay. Sound has magnitude and phase. This is why an out of phase pair of mains sounds the way it does. The amplitude is the same, but the phase is 180° out. The VECTOR sum is zero except for driver and room anomalies. So to integrate a sub, one needs both level and phase controls for the best VECTOR sum. A 180° polarity inversion is the equivalent of moving the sub ≈14 feet @ 40Hz. And a different distance for every other frequency.
Note that a phase control is not a perfect solution, it's just that it's next to hopeless without it. See http://www.ielogical.com/Audio/SubTerrBlues.php for further explanation. Tube Amps ========= The REL instructions are either written for or by someone with ZERO understanding of output transformers. Google stereophile phase in Images. Notice how the impedance rises in the low end of most speakers. With an output transformer, when the load impedance rises, SO DOES THE OUTPUT VOLTAGE. Since the REL SpeakOn input is high impedance, the sub output will increase due to the increased voltage even though the amplifier input signal does not change in level. For the gazillionth time, roll the low end from the mains with a simple 6db/oct passive xover about ½ to 1 octave above the mains -db frequency and drive a sub with multiple XO slopes, phase and polarity controls into the LINE input. Follow the interface guidelines under Setup at
http://www.ielogical.com/Audio/SubTerrBlues.php. There are links to model your room, main and sub placement. REW
https://www.roomeqwizard.com/ also has good modelling. |
^^ Nonsense.
Adding wire to the SpeakOn adds L&C to the speaker main amp circuit.
Using an XO reduces the main amp load, increasing dynamic range and reducing distortion from the main loudspeaker.
I agree there is no free lunch, but High level from the full bandwidth main is not how any pro studio or sound reinforcement system is done.
It's a bad joke foisted on the ignorant looking for a free lunch!
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No Electronics. Passive XO with teflon or polystyrene or polypropylene caps. The best RCAs. Wired with silver plated teflon coated wire and Ag solder. Listen to something with no low end like a Cecila Bartoli aria or Winton Marsalis solo. I defy anyone to hear it. With well mated subs, the increase in mid bass clarity has to be heard. See http://www.ielogical.com/assets/Audio/PassiveXO1.png |
Do the math & call me back... |
Rwwear. No they don’t.
He meant HiLevel inputs. There's nothing magical about SpeakOn. IMO, they're just a $50 FanBoy addon. |
SpeakOn is a connector!! It is a locking connector developed for sound reinforcement. It is overkill for a home subwoofer.
It's FanBoy HiFi Jewelry as it serves NO SONIC PURPOSE.
RCA, phone plug, banana all work as well.
Since you're such a fan of the pro SpeakOn, pro systems don't drive the low end in PARALLEL with the range above it.
When you have your EE degree, call me back about tracking the amp output. |
The $50 price comes from markup.
My company installed thousands of Neutric XLRs in the 80's & 90's in pro studios. IMO, Switchcraft is a more rugged connector. SS vs pot metal, but a royal PITA to assemble. SC will with stand a road case rolling over it. Neutrik not so much.
All the stage monitors where I produce our shows use SpeakOns. They are a great connector.
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I’ll reiterate again: Taking a high level output from a Tube Amp is a bad idea. The speaker impedance controls the LEVEL INPUT TO THE SUB. See http://www.ielogical.com/assets/Audio/TubeAmpSpkrV.pngThe input to the sub is ≈7.7db lower at 20Hz than 60Hz. Blecchh !! SS amps will exhibit considerably less change, but are NOT immune to LS impedance.
Current which drives the LS is not in phase with the voltage which drives the sub. The sub introduces its own phase errors which is why ALL subs need Continuous Phase and Polarity controls. Without them, unless the sub was engineered for the system, it’s a crap shoot. Mostly crap!
ROLL THE LOW END FROM THE MAINS AND USE THE LOW LEVEL INPUT !!!
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ever measured a voltage sweep in to the subs?
unless the speakers are resistors or crossover-less, I'll wager it's not flat. |
Unfortunately a large proportion of the audiophile community is digital phobic.
also engineering phobic |
