Sub output: Is it the woofer size or the rated RMS

"But the small cone has more linearity in its movement"

Huh?....smaller drivers are made, so that you can use smaller boxes, so that the buyers wife will be happy, or at least, more happy than she would have been with larger boxes in her living room....(no other reason for doing it, purely marketing).

Dave

Stanwal

Hummm, I wonder why all the best subwoofer designs, that have more than one size (10"/12"/15"/18"...charge more for the larger subwoofers?, if the smaller subwoofers are better?

You should quit reading, and get some practical experience.

The subwoofer drivers of yester year, were very large for a reason...more bass, with less power. The box design for the old 30" subwoofer you mentioned was huge (around 5' tall), and required only limited power supply....more in line with the technology of the day.

Dave

I just thought Stanwal's " cone linearity " statement was complete hogwash, and implying some advantage, towards smaller drivers.

Truth is, from 20-80hz (normal subwoofer range)...small drivers have no advantage over larger drivers.... at reproducing these very low freq's

Just trying to stop the spread of internet B.S. from taking over.

Sorry for being "insulting" in my approach....my bad...over and out.

Sobad

Sometimes it's simply a matter of Proportion, like sticking a babies head, on a 250# man. Or building a huge state of the art hometheater sound system, and then watching the movie on a 27" screen....it's just not right.

Stanwal

I didn't attack manufactures at all, I simply stated that the reason they build small subwoofers is marketing. (the wife part was half in jest, and half not). A lot of people want subwoofers, in this day of hometheater. And many of those people can't, or won't buy huge boxes, they want small...and for many reasons.

Manfactures cater to market demands...thats called marketing, in case you didn't know?

I also didn't mention money (although you seem high on that subject...what a snob), didn't mention your $3,000 subwoofers, didn't mention my system...or my subwoofers...you did all that.

I simply stated that your "cone linearity" statement was hogwash, and that the large drivers of old that you mentioned (and implied was the wrong direction), were a product of their time, and of that times technology.

Actually, the two huge drivers you used as examples, saw limited use....smaller 18", 15", 12" drivers were used in most designs as I recall it.

I fully understand that many manufactures make "very fine" small/med/large subwoofers for todays "market" needs....but they don't make the small subs, because they found out they were better than the large subs (although they probably are better than the large subs of years ago, given todays advanced technology).

Stanwal

Some good points, so I'll keep this short:

Regarding Wilson:

(They have Thor's Hammer subwoofer?)...two 15's

Regarding Rel subs:(and in no way intended as a knock)

(Fine subs, but mostly over rated at Audiogon, and probably under rated, at most other forums? To be honest, there has never been a time as now, when so many good subwoofers are in the market, and we are very lucky. The "AUDIOPHILE COMMUNITY" is much larger than Audiogon, and much of the hype around Rel subs stays here, or at least your statement about them " being possibly the best sub available")

Regarding subs, or mains using multiple drivers:

(Multiple drivers give you more cubic inches, they move more air...see the Wilson Thor as an example that works along with your examples. Multi driver subwoofers were not in my subject line, they are a "whole nother subject"...although an interesting one that does bring some advantage, in some systems. My Apogee MiniGrand subwoofers use a pair of 8" drivers in each cabinet, and my VMPS subwoofers use a 12" and 15" driver in each cabinet, and a single VMPS subwoofer, uses only a 12" driver).

Like you, I'm not a hometheater guy...although I wouldn't be without one, and I do enjoy it now and then. My main music system is no longer using subwoofers (except when I play my little MiniGrands). My Duetta Signatures don't need subwoofers to keep up with the MiniGrands, and the large subwoofers rarely came into play, when I did use them for music in the past (so, I thought it a poor return on value)....and I moved them to the movie system where they get more work.

Regarding 20-80hz:

(Two octaves, the first one....one 15" has a clear advantage over one 10" driver in the 20-40hz range)....the winner?, the 15"

(The second octave, 40-80z?...I can't think of any reason, why a single 10" would have any advantage here either)....the winner?, probably an "equal result" at best.

This would seem to give the larger driver an edge?....a 50% win rate at least, while the smaller driver gets no clear win...0% win rate from 20-80hz.

At freq's above 70-80hz, and using a subwoofer at these higher freq's, your on to something, or at least your ear may be....as the small driver, begins to take any advantage away from the larger driver...no rocket science here.

Regarding hometheater subwoofers:

While they do make hometheater subwoofers (I like to call them "west coast subwoofers"....I'm sure you remember the west coast sound)...any "good" subwoofer can reproduce music and movies just fine.

Regarding Quad and subs:

Dipole bass and monopole bass, does not sound the same. In order to mate "monopole subs", with dipole speakers (at least in my experience, and to my ear)...you must use a filter slope that does not allow the sub, to be active above 40-50hz... 70hz max. (lower is always better)....it's not a speed thing at all. While subwoofers do need to be "linear" (except the west coast ones(-:)...they don't need to be fast? If any one driver is playing faster than another, it's playing a different freq. yes?

Any driver only needs to play, as fast as the freq. calls for, and no faster. Large drivers do have a speed limit, because of their size and weight, but 20-80hz is well within that limit for a 15" driver.

So, I'm going to end this short post, and say I agree with you 50% on subwoofers...and 100% on speaker choice...(-:

Dave

161 ten inch woofers have met their match!

http://www.ohgizmo.com/2006/03/06/the-biggest-subwoofer-ever-made/