It is not your speakers, it's your room that is causing your problems. Invest is acoustic treatments or maybe even hire an acoustical engineer. The 20T are awesome speakers. |
Thanks, but I must say I already have; several DaaD 3&4 modules as well as products from Auralex. An acoustical engineer has inspected my room and given me compliments of beeing one of the best rooms he has ever heard! But have in mind, it is not easy to treat low bass. And I feel the 20Ts just produce too much bass in my room, at least according to my taste. |
You need more room damping, you are getting a midbass bump which will likely be with most speakers putting out anything significant below 100 cycles. I have heard the MBL 111, and they are very nice, but sound flat if only playing at a modest level. They sound best with their ears folded back and cranking it out, then the stage is glorious, but lacking the delicacy of your 20T which is a speaker I like very much. (I had the 10T, another great one, and it was short a ribbon tweeter from superb.) But, as the level goes up, so does your bump.....I would work more on your room, and I even apply under tables, and counters with Auralex type of foam, and this sucks more out of that standing wave. A small room is easily overloaded in that region. I even line the top of cabinets that do not go to the ceiling and this is invisible and takes up no room.
Jallen |
The Vandy 5as will deliver world class performance in a 14x 18 and feature built in full range self powered subs with 22 bands of Room compensation 11 per ch.
These simple adjustments allows us to go precisely to the cause of room resonance and nip them in the bud without making the listening room look like a science project with excessive treatments.
Because they are also phase and time correct with proper tilt back you will experience a layering and dimensionality that is truly special.
The unique Battery bias high pass allows your main amp to play on another dynamic level since you are bi amping without complected x overs.
Cheers Johnnyr |
If you like the 20T's, with that one exception, consider a Rives PARC bass equalizer. |
Audioconnection, Ngjockey,
that was more the kind of responses I was looking forward to. Thanks. |
Also been thinking of replacing monos with two stereoamps for biamping. I can then send the high pass filtered signal from my subs to one channel on each stereo amp which will amplify the bass for my 20Ts, and send full range signal (not filtered for ultimate sound quality) to the other channel that will go to the head unit of the 20Ts for midrange and treble. Or is it best that this channel doesn´t see the below 100Hz information as well? |
Cappuccino, some good suggestions and speaker options, regarding what Jallen said about the MBL 111F's "the sound flat if only playing at a modest level. They sound best with their ears folded back and cranking it out"
I disagree with that comment, that's another issue but nothing to do with the speakers them selves, most likely what was feeding them. |
Your room has standing waves which are causing a bass mode in the region you have defined. You have two options 1) fix the room or 2) buy speakers with a built in equalizer or purchase a stand alone room equalizer such as the PARC to use with the 20T. Both aforementioned solutions tackle the same problem but from a different perspective.
Any speaker with a flat response will exhibit the same problem if put in the same the room. If sonic performance is your first priority, then additional room treatment is required. If you need to balance sonic performance with room aesthetics, then something like the PARC would be the solution. |
I agree with all about the room being the issue. I had similar problems with my similarly sized room. The problem was solved with judicious use of ASC Tube Traps and a Rives Audio PARC. You may not need the PARC as your issue is at around 80Hz while mine was at 31Hz and 37Hz, frequencies that fall below the effective range of even large traps. |
Guys,
thanks for your input. I can see from some of the responses that not all seem to have understood my intitial posting and the reason for this thread. As I said I am very happy with the bass I have in my room at the moment. Because of the Aerial subs and their built in EQ I have very nice and smooth bass now. So I do not fully understand why some of you suggest that I should use a unit like the PARC. Is that because you think I should not use the Aerial SW12 subs and their built-in EQ but have the 20T running full range? I must say I find the bass in the SW12 to be phenomenal and they also integrate very well. Also I have found the midrange to improve when I removed the heavy bass burden from the 20T. I have looked up some other threads about JL subs and Vandersteen subs and found that this is a quite common solution to do what I have done, to split the bass signal between sub and main speakers.
My initial post and the reason for this thread was if there are other speakers that would do the job my Aerial 20T´s now have in a better way. For example I am thinking of line sources that roll off at 100Hz or speakers that excell in the midrange, even better than my 20T´s. And btw, I am definately not going to throw in more bass traps in my room... |
If you got two SW12s then you might as well get some monitors. For that matter get a pair of 5Bs. I can't imagine using SW12s with 20Ts. 20Ts are already full range speakers. Why don't you plug the port on the bottom? Email Aerial and see what they recommend. |
Wireless200,
I will not downgrade to 5Bs or other speakers with less performance than 20T. |
Okay, now I understand your question. You are wasting your money only running the 20T from 100hz and up. There are a lot of monitor speakers out there that work well in the 100hz plus region, BUT before you goes down this route, how about trying the Rives PARC with just the 20T to help out with the 80hz bass problem and loose the subs? |
If you remove 20-100Hz from the chain there is still much left, so I don´t know if I agree when you talk about waste of money.
Anyway, I am considering a line source speaker at the moment to replace my 20Ts. It has no crossovers and starts to roll off just below 100Hz. I think it will be a perfect match with my Aerial subs in my room. These line sources are incredible dynamic and throw a huge soundstage. Scary realistic sounding. Sorry to say, but I think they perform quite a lot better than the 20Ts. I have not made my decision yet, but I´m waiting for an offer from the dealer. |
Ariel has spent a lot of research and dollars in developing the 20T lower bass capabilities, and not utilizing the 20T lower bass capabilities, is not fully maximizing the 20T abilities, therefore, one could consider it a waste of money if you are not going to drive them as they were designed. I do not disagree that the 20T does an excellent job from 100hs and up, it was just designed to be full range.
Which line source are you considering? |
I have been amazed by line sources for a while as they are less dependent on room coupling. The line source speaker I am considering specifically is the Adyton Imagic 2.0TC speaker, made in Norway. It has no crossover or passive components in the signal path which minimized loss and increases dynamics. On their feet they are 7ft tall but only 4" wide.
You can see a picture of them here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=album;id=1878#
The 2.0 model is the tallest, the lower is model 1.6. |
And here the picture I referred to: http://www.adyton.no/img/b/8AAX3884_b.jpg |
I am not sure if they are classified as line source speakers but I once heard the Nearfield Acoustics Pipedreams speakers (they look similar to the Adyton)and sounded wonderful. Please keep us updated on your quest. |
Brf,
yes I will. I have already ordered these speakers so now I am just waiting. They will arrive within few weeks. |
Too bad you ordered the other speakers. I didn't see the thread until one of my clients alerted me to your problem. You don't say what processor you are using, nor do you indicate what preamp is doing your music, but I would have suggested centering the midrange at the intersection of 24 off the sidewall and 43 inches out from the front wall. This would indicate a reasonable toe in, but using the Vandersteen method of compensating for room anomalies has always worked
I use the 20Tv2 as full range, but augment them with subs for theater, and given enough power they stay under complete control.
Good luck |
Klatuu,
the posistioning you mention is actually what I have in my system.
I also considered Tidal speakers, but as there is no dealer for Tidal in Norway where I live I think that makes things a little complicated.
I am quite sure the Adytons line sources should be a big step up from the 20Ts. After just listening 10 seconds I understood that these are in a completely different league. I still think the 20Ts are great though. I believe the Adytons should only be compared with the best of the best. You never find a used pair for sale. I know of people who have chosen these speakers over Burmester B100 and Wilson Maxx.
They must of course be paired with some very good subwoofers. I hope my Aerial SW12 will be up to the task. I will use speaker level inputs on the SW12s. |
An update from me since I have now had my new line source speakers for two weeks. I must say they have redefined my perception of high end audio and music reproduction. From the first note I could easily hear that this was something truely special.
I must say that the Aerial 20Ts V2 are very good speakers. But they are also very room dependant and I think need more space than I what had available. I heard my own 20Ts at the dealers shop after the trade-in. With the larger room they have the 20Ts sounded much better than they did in my home (but still quite a lot behind the Adyton line sources, also in that room). Luckily, with my new speakers I have no room issues anymore. And I feel I found speakers I can live happily with for the rest of my life. |
