I am running my SBT with EDO, running USB into the digital input of an Oppo BDP-105. I can't say if this configuration is better or worse than using coax or optical into the Oppo, but for classical music stations with CBR/high bit rates, even from wifi, the sound is quite amazing thru Sennheiser HD800S cans, almost CD quality on chamber music. A bit mushy, though, on loud symphonic music passages.
But, I am having a problem. I turn the power off on both SBT and Oppo when done listening. Each time I power them up, the "Oppo BDP-105" digital output option disappears from the 'digital output' menu, and no music comes out of the Oppo. I have to reboot twice to get the Oppo DAC option to appear in the menu list. Anyone have a fix?
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My system is very high resolution, going from wireless to wired made a HUGE improvement. Wired sounds more contigous with less gaps. It shouldn't make a difference if the DAC buffer is large enough ...
I'm using EDO disabling analog outs and sound is higher resolution. |
I don't know how much of this stuff is system dependent. I really can't tell you how much of a difference disabling analogue outs or wireless makes.
I can say this, tough. With TT 3.0, you can use an SSH program to switch the display on and off, on the fly. I use my iPad to do this. When switching the display on and off, there is a definite audible difference for the better when you switch the display off. It's as though a slight veil has been lifted.
Of the two, I'd say that EDO is easier to deal with. It installs from the Touch itself from the 3rd Party App menu. Once you install it, all available changes can be made from the Touch, through the menus. When you want to uninstall it, you just go back to the menu and choose to uninstall it. Just make sure to uncheck the option to automatically reinstall it after an update, otherwise it will just reinstall.
TT 3.0 is a bit more involved. It requires a terminal program to transfer files to the Touch. It isn't hard and the instructions are pretty clear. All adjustments and available options are accessed through the use of the SSH program. The upside is that removing it requires nothing more than a hard reset.
Oh, TT 3.0 suggests that you change an option in the server software allowing the decoding to be done on the server. Be aware that if you are running wireless, you network may not be able to handle the bandwidth necessary for hi res files; the operative words being "may not." |
Thanks for your input and recommendations Loftarasa. Keep us posted on your comparisons between Toolbox 3.0 and the EDO app Tonyangel. Will be interesting to see what you think when going back to TT3.0. A lot of people find improved sound from disabling wireless not because wired sounds better necessarily but because you are removing unwanted noise and unwanted artifacts by doing so streamlining the Touch so to speak. Google "Archimago's Musings MEASUREMENTS: Logitech Touch as transport!" Blog for some interesting Squeezebox graphs. One test shows no measured difference from disabling the analog outs. Should I try EDO first, then TT3.0 later? I would need to use a Wireless Bridge to go Wireless in my current setup. Thanks everyone! |
Fair enough. Did you try the direct USB out using EDO to the Oppo? |
There you go. That was it. I found it to be a bit of a PITA too. No need to mess with them, really, with TT 3.0 and EDO, which are pretty much tweaked as it is.
I've continued to listen using EDO and I'm finding that the image is also a bit less defined. I'm going to listen more tonight, but think I'm going to go back to using TT 3.0, when I feel like reinstalling it. |
I think it was Dynobot / Dynaudiorules -- I apply his switches to turn off samba and wifi but the thread priority changes were very hard to find a sweet spot on so I left those out.
https://sites.google.com/site/computeraudioorg/squeezebox-touch-tweaks |
Loftarasa,
After reading your post, I went and removed TT 3.0 and reinstalled the EDO app. I've been meaning to try it anyway, since I jut got a different pre amp.
When going from the TT 3.0 to the EDO app, in my system, the stage got wider, but I lost some depth and the vocals are more recessed. I'm gonna run it like this for a while and see, but I think I'll ultimately go back to using TT 3.0.
All we're ultimately doing is tweaking the priorities of the threads to get the sound that we like. Apparently, TT 3.0 and EDO use different priority settings for the different threads, hence the change in the character of the music, along with the improvements that we get by killing unneeded things like wireless and analogue outs.
A little while back, I happened across a thread by a guy that took the time to isolate the interrupts controlling the threads that affect the character of the music. You could make changes on the fly to A/B the effects of the changes, then write the changes that you liked into the config files. For the life of me, I can't find the thread now.
Isn't a shame that you can't do the same with a CD player? I really like my SBT. |
I've tweaked my Touch a lot! I think most agree the analog
outputs can be easily bettered with an external DAC (I use a
NAD M51).
So just get an optical and a coax cable and run it into your
Oppo - see which you like better.
Here are the tweaks I've applied:
1. linear power supply - made the most difference. I use a
DIY AMB O11 supply. I also compared it to the iFi iUSB
(which can power the Touch) which is very good. John Swenson
also designed a Touch supply which is meant to be excellent
and cheap to construct.
2. Triode EDO applet mentioned above - this thing is great
and allows you to disable the analog outputs as well as
enabling 192 output over USB
3. A good coax cable. I always prefer coax to optical. The
1.5m thing is really a rule of thumb. It's premised on the
reduction of signal reflections along the transmission line
but this is difficult to control without measurement
equipment, and it's wholly dependent on the impedance
matching of the Touch to the receiving DAC. So what one
person says is best is really what's best for their
particular DAC. That being said, I've tried several coax
cables for the Touch using different DACs and found the
Wireworld Starlight 6 consistently a very good match. It's
also not that expensive.
4. Aftermarket USB-S/PDIF converter - made a nice
improvement as well. I use the iFi iLink + iUSB. The iLink
gave the bulk of the improvement and the iUSB I would say is
optional overall.
5. I've also tried the Touch Toolbox and didn't like version
3 that much, so have removed it. Soundcheck also recommended
the expensive Meicord ethernet cable but I don't notice much
difference with it. I also tried the Squeezebooster inline
choke but it only makes a very minor change.
So...try the EDO plugin (it's free), try optical and coax
into your Oppo...consider a new power supply and actually
you should test going straight into the Oppo using USB as
according to this spreadsheet it works with the EDO plugin
(then the iUSB + Gemini cable would be a more compelling
upgrade later)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?
key=0AqiK6WHnz5FHdEtlalVRb29pX3N2WXhfMlAzNmFMZnc#gid=0 |
Tuneman, really, I don't even remember if the Touch will play 24/192 files without the "Enhanced Digital Out" third party application. If you are getting an unsupported file error with 24/192 files, you should try installing the "Enhanced Digital Out" third party application.
As far as having your server (whatever it is that you may be using) doing the decoding, your success is going to be dependent upon your setup.
If you are feeding files over a wireless connection, you may run into problems because sending the decoded file over the network takes up a lot more bandwidth. If you run into problems having your server doing the decoding, just leave the setting so that the Touch is doing the decoding.
I have my NAS and Touch on a wired network and have never had any problems having the decoding done on my NAS. I use a Synology Disk Station. |
Thanks Kr4. Would probably go digital RCA coax out of the Touch. Really like the way the Touch operates so would be reluctant to give it up.
Thanks Knghifi. Have heard positive things about the Bolder upgrades but remember them being pricey.
Thanks Tonyangel for your findings. I hear disabling the analog outs improves the sound using digital. I want to leave all outputs active to start so I can compare the analog to digital outs. If I do indeed like the digital outs to a DAC better then disabling the analog outs would be my next step. I use some of the settings Klaus (Soundcheck) recommends like disabling apps you are not using but have not installed Toolbox 3.0. Is it a pretty easy and painless process? One thing recommended is to change where the FLAC is encoded. When I tried the Soundcheck setting for this my HD Tracks 24/192 albums would not play at all showing an "Unsupported Sample Rate". Switching back to stock setting they played fine. Of course they are downsampling them to 24/96 as the Touch analog outs will only play 24/96 and below. I run my Touch wireless which may be a factor. I have heard that 1.5m is best length but also have heard 1m is optimum length as well. Some say it doesn't matter. Anybody tried it? Thanks! |
Tonyangel, very interesting "Toolbox 3.0 Squeezebox Touch" info. I will give it a spin if ever use SBT with my music server. I'm already using most of the Media Server settings.
Thanks! |
Tuneman,
You can use the USB as an output, but you have to install a third party app to make it work. It isn't a bad deal, though. From what I understand, the third party app was written by a guy that was on Logitech Squeezebox team. The app is call "Enhanced Digital Out" and can be installed directly from the Squeezebox via the internal menu. You just have to enable all third party apps. The little mod also allows the SBT to do 24/192.
EDO also allows you to disable the analogue outs when using digital.
There's also a little app written by the same guy that disables the screen. The screen will come back on with a key press, but will go blank after a set time. When the app kicks in, it completely disables the screen. I was surprised at the difference that disabling the screen made.
I don't use the EDO app, because I have no need for the USB mod. I use a "Toolbox" mod that did improve the quality of the sound for me. If you want to check that out, just do a search for "Toolbox 3.0 Squeezebox Touch."
After applying the mods, I could not tell a difference in sound quality when going with a linear power supply. I just went back to using the wallwart because it's smaller.
As for the sound quality of optical vs. coax, you'll just have to try them both to see what sounds better to you. If you go coax, make sure that your cable is 1.5m long. There are a few threads on the subject. I don't remember the exact reasoning behind it, but can say that going from an 18" cable to a 1.5m cable made a small, but noticeable difference for the better in my system.
I've messed with my SBT quite a bit applying tweaks and such. You can get some good sound quality out of it. I've also found that just about any external DAC of reasonable quality will improve the sound quality versus the internal SBT DAC. |
I use SBT connected to a PWD MKII DAC via coaxial for internet radio ONLY. It's connected to my squeezenetwork account bypassing laptop and it sounds very very good. I like playing Jazzradio.com and some classical stations for background music.
If use with music server, I would get a linear power supply and get Wayne @Bolder to upgrade digital out. Bolder is no longer in business and Wayne has changed careers but can still do the upgrade in his spare time. |
The USB port on the SBT is for input unless you tweak it to provide output. Easier would be to connect either the optical or coax output to the 105.
Or, you could use the 105 in place of the SBT if you had a local display. |
