Your room is really quite small for a sub in general. If anything, I would suggest a REL (which is one of only a few sub brands I would even consider). I used to own a pair of T3s ($250-300 used) which do well in a smaller room and stand speakers that have limited LF extension.
The reason I recommend one of these smaller RELs is that I think most of their bigger subs will overpower your room and possibly even extend too low. At your room size, my goal would be simply to extend down to about 28-32 hz. and do so with a smaller driver (8" in my mind).
I have to be honest though and suggest that you would probably be better served by stepping up to a better performing integrated amp. Since I am no expert on integrated amps, I don't feel right recommending a specific one as I have limited experience with them. |
Hi Earthquake, I sold you the 202's and would highly recomend the Velodyne Optimum 8 sub-woofer. It's a sealed sub that goes flat to 27hz and rolls into the teens. It has a eq feature that sends out several soundwaves into the room, you hook a supplyed microphone to the sub and put the mic where you will be seated. The mic tells the sub what algorythems to set to make everything from 120hz to 27hz flat. It's the only sub I've heard that can keep up with the Triangle. Trust me on this one. |
You need a sub-woofer with equalization, preferably one that calibrates itself. You also need a sub-woofer (or sub-woofer controller) that will put a high-pass on the main speakers.
1) Your room has its fundamental resonance at 47Hz and will have bass increasing below that. Since you're not going to buy a commercial sub-woofer that starts rolling off at that point due to its mechanical parameters you need to deal with the situation electronically to avoid excess low frequency energy.
2) Your room will have horrendous resonances at 57Hz and multiples thereof that give you one-note bass. Notch filters will fix those problems for a single seating position. A higher cross-over (try 120Hz) will move the first resonances out of the main speakers' pass-band so you only need to notch the sub-woofer output.
Forget REL sub-woofers which do neither. |
That room will never be right for bass. It's lousy advice, I know, but... change the room. There's a limit to how much you can fight the physics. |
My room is 10X13X8 and the bass is wonderful. I've had several people comment on how clean and articulate the bass is. |
Drew, that's odd, when I tried the "learning" subs (velodyne specifically) when I had a system in a very small room in the basement my experience was that sure some manipulation could affect performance in specific areas (frequencies), but the sub just wasn't very good.
Applying filtration to a sub that just doesn't produce a strongly musical sound performance and the ability to stay caught up with my speakers (at the time a pair of Wilson Audio Duettes) didn't do it for me.
All the digital manipulation didn't make up for a somewhat lacking sub in the first place.
My recommendation is to find a sub that has high performance characteristics and good speed, whether with or without all the digital filtration/adulteration components built-in.
A finely tuned Yugo is still a Yugo and no matter how good of a condition its engine is in, it's performance will always be limited. |
I agree with Drew.
The best bet that I could point to is either the Velodyne SMS-1 sub-controller (app $400, I use one in my system) or the SVS Audyssey Box (app $800 plus the cost of the required external active cross-over). The specific choice of subwoofer (while important) is -IMHO- less critical in a small room than the use of room correction.
I will disagre with Drew's "auto calibrate" advice - for the most part. The Velo automatic option sucks, it is primitive and doesn't even scratch the surface of what the SMS can do. In fact, all of the auto-calibate systems that I've heard come up short of manual calibration (although they are way better than no correction at all).
IME, manual correction - while a major PITA -is still the best way to go. Disclaimer: there may be good auto-calibrate systems out there which I haven't heard.
As to the sub choice, I use 12" Rythmiks. Very good sounding, very flexible (adjustible Q), and reasonably priced.
Good Luck,
Marty |
IMO ,your getting bad advise outside moving the system to another space.I doubt a room 10-13 room has"wonderful bass"as stated(unless youve never heard a really great system then maybe).To suggest a sub choice for a 10-12 room is quite comical as your basically listening nearfield,again My opinion. |
Mission, You are just speculating. If you haven't heard my system, then it surely is your opinion. |
Mission,
Have you heard any of the DRC systems (ala Audyssey). If not, you may want to audition one. Try it in a small room. I can't guarantee that you'll like the result, but I'd be shocked if you couldn't hear the difference.
As Drew notes in his post, a corrected sub will fix a lot of problems between 40hz and 60hz and, as he also pointed out, it will address room induced issues at and above 100hz, if crossed high enough to do so. IME, if the program material has any information in this band, you will hear those room effects very clearly -even in a small space.
I made the direct comparison some time ago in a 10'x12'x8' room and the delta between the DRC bypass and DRC engaged was DRAMATICALLY audible.
Marty |
All,
I am new to Audiogon and need similar advice on a sub selection. My room is a bit bigger 15x12x12. I recently slipped a grand piano in there and have the piano disc system receiving midi files via iTunes through an airport express, yes it is quite enjoyable. The accompaniments and non-midis are being performed by my B&W Nautilus 802's. Power is a Krell Kav250 & a Parasound HCA2200. I have a POS Polk sub that was bought from Kmart 5 years ago.... :). Anyway, I'm a rookie here and need a sub that will do the job. I had my eye on a Velodyne DD18 but after reading the thread I'm thinking I need professional advice.
Thanks in advance. craig |
'I don't feel right recommending a specific one as I have limited experience with them.'
Then why make the recommendation at all. Those names throw you for a loop?? NAD & Harman Kardon :) |
I have the Optimum 12 and it beats my friend's JL f112. Did a side bt side and the Velodyne was deeper and tighter. We used the mics for both. The JL had trouble with it's in room EQ. The Velodyne finished in 20 seconds. There is an almost $2,000 difference. It's your money... |
I am a newbie after being out of this for 15 years. I recently added a Totem Storm to my old Celestion SL6 si speakers. The improvement in the system was amazing. I don't have a broad knowledge of subs but I can say that I am happy with the Totem. |
