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Speakers most critical component, , now what fq's are most critical in speakers

So now that we have established that speakers are the vocal chords of a  system, thus making speakers the single most important component in any high fidelity system.
We need to open discussions of what fq's should we be ~most~ concerned about in deciding which speakers  offer the highest fidelity within this hz range?
Bass  20hz-30hz, Can we just let this go for a  moment, As there is really not much in classical within this range, Jazz you do have drum sets going on, its not all that much to be missed.
So really bass  begins to be critical at 40hz. 
High fq's, ,,,again is there really much happening in the highest registers in classical? Not really. jazz has snares and other percussion, but again, hardly much to make any dif if missed out in the say 12k+ hz registers.
I know Richard Gray did mention, although there might not seem to be much going on in the highest hz area, its the ~ambience~ which a  high quality tweeter brings into the recorded sound. I agree.

Now we  are left with the rest, the wide midrange area. Which represents 90%++ of our music.
lower mid-bass, starting at 50hz - 200hz
Low midrange 200hz-say 500hz
Mids 500hz-1khz
upper mids 1k-3k+++
These are rough figures
Point is,  should we be so concerned about the 20-40hz's, when basically only less than 1% of the recordings possess this fq range. 1%, who really cares if it is not ~there~.
Now for the highest fq's, well again, should we really be so concerned how high a  tweeter can voice? 

The one design that strikes me as fulfilling this super critical midrange voicing with fidelity and a  seamless wide band soundstage  is the design callled high sensitivty wide band driver, otherwise known as  ~The Full  Range~
There is no so called ~mid`tweeter~ that can match the performance of these same fq's when compared to a  high quality FR single source.
From the low mid bass all the way to highest upper mids, the FR just has a  much larger voice coil and cone area for dispersion. 
Mid tweeters are a failure, Including both Seas Flagships The Millenium and  The Cresendo.  When heard next to a  quality FR .
With this single source wide band driver, no additional tweeter is needed. 
Now in the low bass, say 30-80hz, it is recommended  adding some sort of  bass modual. 
Which will bring in another dimension making the bass floor, more richer and dynamic, eliminates a  sense of ~flatness~ about a  single source's voicing.
Now I've not heard the single source drivers from the 2 highest labs. My guess is both labs also will benifit from added bass configure.
So now we need to look at what bass configures voice the cleanest, low distortion, sublime and subtle.
For this task, I recommend you look at Seas Excel either the older Magnesium Cone or the newst Magnesium cone called Graphene, which are like 50% more cost, Not sure if its worth it. 
The ideal size will either be dual W18's, or a  single W22, maybe even a  W26.
This Magnesium cone material is so sublime in the 40-60hz's, that hardly any driver on the market will match it. With the copper phase plug. Not a  neodymium magnet, but still packs a gorgeous tight rich 40-60hz bass , and voicing the low mids with pure clean fidelity. Pricey but worth it. 
Capacitor for the Excel midwoofers should be Mundorf SilverGold Supreme of if you can afford it SESGO. 2X's the price of reg supreme. Superior vs their Aluminum model.
 



mozartfan
15 responses Add your response
mozartfan OP
2,143 posts
 
Compression tweet has no meat on the bones. Ribbons not beefy enough.
Seems a  high quality 6.5 FR is ideal for capturing a  true high fidelity complete  wide midrange fq band. 
With some type of bass configure beefing up the lowest end, 40hz-60hz. 
As i say I am not all concerned with the 20hz-40hz. 
There is just not enough music in the under 40hz to make me go further swaping out what i already have.
Now if you have no Seas Excel, I'd suugest go a  single Graphene W22 or a  W26 Excel Magnesium. 
b_limo's avatar
b_limo
2,274 posts
 
I agree and disagree!  Big fan of seas excel.  Listening to some right now.  Also a big fan of bass.  My speakers play 25-26hz very strong.  I had a dip at 70 hz where bass was mia.  Dont underestimate the power of placement and room treatments.
kalali's avatar
kalali
1,977 posts
 
I'm not sure if I follow. I may be looking at the wrong Seas drivers but the W18 or W22 are not full range drivers and at 88 dB I wouldn't categorize then as highly efficient. I thought you were talking about high efficiency full range single drivers - like what I have in my Omega Super Alnico Monitors. I think they sound fantastic for certain genres of music where upper bass through lower treble region is more dense than other regions. The high efficiency combined with the lack of a crossover gives single drivers a perceived sense of immediacy that is quite noticeable. 
audioguy85's avatar
audioguy85
2,018 posts
 
Do yourself a favor and go listen to some Tannoys. I think that once you do, you will be hooked. That dual concentric driver is a beauty. I got the Eaton legacy and they are all I will ever need.
mozartfan OP
2,143 posts
 
I'm not sure if I follow. I may be looking at the wrong Seas drivers but the W18 or W22 are not full range drivers and at 88 dB I wouldn't categorize then as highly efficient. I thought you were talking about high efficiency full range single drivers - like what I have in my Omega Super Alnico Monitors. I think they sound fantastic for certain genres of music where upper bass through lower treble region is more dense than other regions. The high efficiency combined with the lack of a crossover gives single drivers a perceived sense of immediacy that is quite noticeable.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes the W18,W22 older model Excel Magnisium are low eff at 87, 

I would prefer to havea  single W22 Graphene Magnesium the new flagship midbass as adding extra low end for my future Vox 8 98 db eff single source. 
The Thors dual W18's will be employed for that task.
Perhaps the Vox 8 does go as the specs say, donw to 20hz. who knows.
In my limited expm f FR single source drivers,, the soundstage can seem a  bit flat.
When I added the dual w18's in the system the sound field has more depth, width.
Seas really engineered a world class  midbass in their Excel technology, Magnesium seems to be the  most perfect cone material in low bass asa  bonus the low midrange is pure , clean, natural.
The Millenium dome tweet suffers the same weaknesses as all dome tweeters. 
The Millenium is the  only  weakness  in my system, But its a big liability,  
AS midrange is 90++ % of the music. 
Seas  in  the Millenium and their new flagship the Cresendo , are attempting for this 1.3 inch dome tweeter to handle both low mids and upper highs. 
I must say the human voice is extemely accurate, no fatigue, no muddiness. 
It is the soundstage, too small for my classical music. 
Here is where  a  high quality FR can out perform any dome tweeter in production from Scanspeak and seas.
Sure a  high quality pure dome tweeter can work excellent in the highs, but then what do we do with mids??
Here is  where a  high quality FR can outperform any midrange/tweeter combination.
There is so much music left unheard , due to low db sens lack of ~~transparency~~.
The subtilities, nuances in any recording medium are so muffled in a  low eff driver. These nuances can be detected when a  FR acting as mid/high driver is employed. 
Bass is just a bonus.
But is it enough low end, with fullness, depth?
The thing with these high sens FR drivers anda  100watt PP/KY88, is the limits on  the gain, Just a  pinch of the vol and its already loud enough.
But now the PP can drive the 87db W18's. 
its going to have to work.
W18's @ 87db + FR8 @ 98db
I'm running the W18's with a  FR8/94db, and works** just fine**. 
Huge caveat here

Thing is vol is hardly at 8 oclock. More like 7 oclock. Yeah I know I'm only using say 10 watts of the Defy7's 100.. 
It IS what IT is.  

mozartfan OP
2,143 posts
 
I agree and disagree!  Big fan of seas excel.  Listening to some right now.  Also a big fan of bass.  My speakers play 25-26hz very strong

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Which Seas Excel are you using?
I want to place a  W22 Graphene in where the bottom W18 is, But they are too pricey, $1k pair. For what?  Some fq's below 40hz? Not worth it. ...but then,,,who knows down the road,,,

mozartfan OP
2,143 posts
 
Here is Troels Gravesen’s design using the W22 + a W12
He asks <<Is there too many xover componets??>> Then goes on to explain why the need for so many caps,resistors etc.

It looks to bea very nice sounding speaker, But its too many xover parts for my cup of tea.
I’ll stay with the W18  dual drivers.
Just 1 cap, 1 coil, 1 resistor, lots of solid bass, gorgeous lower mids.
Here in this article Troels gives upa breakdown of low bass/mid range fq’s.
Lets all go over the specs.

byw I disconnected the LII Fast8 FR and hooked up the dayon 3 inch FR where the Millennium was in the Thor cabinet. WINNER!!!
The Fast8 was too warm.
The LII Fast8 was 94db. The Dayton FR 3 is 85 db, right there with the W18’s. Now the mids/upper highs are perfectly in line with the bass from the W18’s.
If I swap out one W18 for a W22/Graphene, the deeper bass just might get on my nerves.
Swapping a W18 fora Graphene W18 might be doable, but price is like $1100 pair..?? For what?
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/TJL3W.htm

IMHO
The dual W18’s EXOO1’s are the best bass response from any design. If we cionsider small/mid size room enclosures.
Larger rooms, W18 Graphene/W22 Graphene.
arafiq's avatar
arafiq
1,665 posts
 
I read through your other thread about speakers being the most important component in the chain. I’m sorry but it doesn’t sound like it was established conclusively that speakers are the most important part. I see no consensus forming around that opinion. My suggestion is to halt this thread temporarily, go back back to the first one, build consensus, and then come back to this one. You’re welcome.
mozartfan OP
2,143 posts
 
 I see no consensus forming around that opinion.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On several of my recent topics, this Q has been raised (by me) concerning speakers as the very VOICE/Vocal Chords of a  system. Some well seasoned audiophiles here agreed.

I shared several testimonies as to how i arrived at this thesis. 
Some members here have supported this belief as fundamentally sound.
Hinting at this proposal ~~Speakers are everything~~~ The rest is only for nuances/support. Nothing more.
Now its true phono is superior to cd as source medium, But we are  speaking in  a 1 to 1 shootout. 
Not sure what you've missed in some of these topics/posts, But its there, trust me, others have opined in agreement.

Jadis' JA800 will sound either fidelity with fidelity speakers or highly colored with coloration speakers ~~warm/muddy/grayish/non sparkley/rough voice, just plain old distortion, These distortion LOUD speakers are out there selling under big namses and high prices.
Been this way since the early 1970's. 
Thats why I bought into Seas..
Now someone here suggested I take a look at seas FA22 8 ohm, 94db Full Range, which i dismissed. 
My research this moring has brought me,,back to
Seas FA22RCZ Full range, 8 ohms, 94db, from their Prestige line.
Just ordered a  pair from madisound.
The few YT vids just completely blew me away.
Not sure why I overlooked the FA22.
Perhaps the newer FR technology had me so enchanted , so enamored with their design, I just could not look at Seas  ~~Older model~~ as a  potential in this class.
Could not have been more wrong.
The FA22RCZ, arrived FEDEX home delivery. 
will post a  YT vid once installed in a  cabinet.
I wish to thank the member who altered me to this driver,which i had looked at many times past 2-3 years, 

Seas comes through yet once again.
I still have plans to order the W22NX003.

http://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=375:h1597-08-fa22rcz&cat...

mozartfan OP
2,143 posts
 
Here is a  recent 2 weeks ago, review on the FA22RCZ,
All the wonderful descripts on  this drivers, bass/mids/highs,, falls in line with my impressions from the several YT vid uploads.

This tech geek has nothing bad to say about this driver, 
Its a winner in all 3 FQ ranges.
You can skip to 5:37 to get his final assessment on the performance.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldTlvnKlBic
ebm
9,311 posts
 
WOW I didn't know that.
mozartfan OP
2,143 posts
 
While preping my Thor cabinets to accept the FA22RCZ,
I noted the Thors had a lot of fluff white pcaking insulation,
I ripped it all out, I mean it was stuffed all chambers it is a Transmisssion line, so has a  wall running up center , opening below and then sound travels up the back line and out the top rear.
Now these W18's really have PUNCH,,But actually too much.
I will use attic insulation. Very easily you can peel off 75% of this 4 inch thick insulation, leaving about 1 inch. I will placea  12x12 piece behind each W18 and also the FA22RCZ.
This way its dampened , but allows the bass to flow out transmission line top rear port.
Might seem likea  lot of bas, 3 woofers, but at my listening gain db, it should work OK. 
a single FR 8 inch will not deliver the low end that will make fora  nice soundstage.
Added woofers are needed for a single source driver.
I also will cancel my idea about addinga  W18NX003. 
I have more than enough bass with these W18E001 and I realize now why Seas chose the lighter of the 2 W18's, the 001, and not the heftier EX001.
Dual 001's are more than enough bass. Dual  EX001's would jave been bass heavy.
I am not at all missing the 20-40hz's. 
The W18001 goes down to 40hz and its Rock Solid Bass.
This elusive 20hz-40hz is not all that appealing to me. Itsactually going to bea  nuance. I prefer low vol listening levels, and near field listening. 
The 20hz-40hz would  perhaps might seem too agressive, and just get on my nerves after some listening.
I am actually glad to cancel  the W18NX003 project, 
The FA22RCZ arrives friday or saturday, I'll sart on cutting off the face plate of the Thors tomorrow and have things ready for the build.
I will place the FA22RCZ sandwiched between the W18's, right where the Seas Millennium tweeter was ~~trying to carry mids and highs~~~ with success in light  jazz, but not in classical orchestra. 
ONly a  FR can voice orchestra/complex jazz with success in the mids/highs. . 

mozartfan OP
2,143 posts
 
ONly a FR can voice orchestra/complex jazz with success in the mids/highs.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Not only Full Orchestra/complex jazz, 
But also no other speaker in the universe can voice female jazz vocals like a  New High Tech Full Range, whether it be magnet or field coil
Here is a field coli in female vocals
HA! not even  the $400k Wilsons can match this voicing.
btw my house here in new orleans appraises  near  $400k. 
 

I'm guessing the Feastrex is like $40k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TrHCbq_Oyg
mozartfan OP
2,143 posts
 
The above speaker sounds superior than the actual recording in the studio itself. 
Better than live, Hows that for full range magic.
IOW the speaker sounds superior to the artist voice. 
The speaker can sing better than this female vocalist.
mijostyn's avatar
mijostyn
8,570 posts
 
Mozartfan. you are groveling in antiquity. First of all 20 to 40 Hz is an entire octave and all kinds of stuff happens down there that contributes greatly to the realism of the presentation like the thump you get when the bass player's thumb bangs the string. Many synthesizers frequently go that low. Lauri Anderson loved to do that. Systems that lack the ability to project bass under 40 Hz sound like the artificial music makers they are, wimpy. 
Arguably the finest tweeter operating on magnetic fields is the Magneplanar ribbon tweeter. The only driver better is an ESL. Some horns are up there.  Dynamic drivers are uniformly terrible. They are a poor impedance match to air and they spray high end indiscriminately all over the place bouncing off everything creating a high frequency din that is indecipherable. 
You really have to move beyond dynamic drivers with the exception of subwoofers. Ribbons, Planar magnetics, horns and ESLs all done well are seriously superior.  And forgetting about 40 Hz and below is the recipe for producing a transistor radio. 
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