@Duke I never had the maggies 2 feet away. I tried it today but really did not like it. As it is now, they are back to 5 feet away from the back and 2 ft away from the side. When I cross them to 45 degrees, the 'sweet spot' is broader but the image is blurred. I prefer the proper positioning for now, about 15 degrees toe in so that each panel faces my head. I do not understand how to measure the effects of reflections except for trial and error. So when you talk about reflections from the back wall, this is what I perceive as essential to the imaging. As a quick test, the image stays coherent even as I walk close to the imaginary line connecting the speakers and even walk past it towards the back wall. This tells me that I am hearing the reflections because the speakers are actually behind my head in this position. This 'walk close' test is how I 'measure' the reflection strength and direction. In terms of getting rid of the wall coverings, I never really tried that. I could just gather up the curtains with a tie to expose the wall and windows. Are you using dipoles (electrostatic, maggie, etc)?
speakers for a large room
Although the room is 45' x 15' , it is separated into an eating area, a sitting area, and a listening area(15'x15'). However, the ceiling is slanted and high and the separations between the areas is achieved with partitions only. The listening area is well damped with curtains and thick carpet.
Currently I moved a pair of magnepan 3.7i driven by a pair of sanders magtech mono block amplifiers into this room. These amps are rated to 2000w into 4 ohms and I have to be careful not to blow the fuses on the maggies . Preamp is a Schitt Freya +. The sound is superb. Until I set this system up, I really didn't know what people were talking about when they said they could 'see the instruments'. Positioning the maggies 5' away from the back wall is no problem but they cannot fill the room. I added a pair of rhythmic subs and the lower end is better. The imaging does require proper positioning and seating. You cannot really have a good listening experience unless you are in the sweet spot. That limits the experience to two people sitting really close. In addition, they are big and now with the subs, I am getting dirty looks from the boss of the house.
So I am looking for a pair floor standing speakers that can stand up to this room but that might be less imposing. Budget <12k. The walls have heavy curtains, thick rug on the floor so echo is well controlled. The weird asymmetric shape of the room also prevents any boominess. I listened to the B&W 802D but found them harsh (I don't remember the amp that was driving them). I remember a pair of salon2 and they had quite a large sweet spot along with beautiful clarity. Used the salon2 are around 11k. I have looked at (but not listened to) the Golden Ear Triton reference as well as the Triangle Magellan reference and the Gershan avant garde. Revel f228be are also on my list. I would like to keep my amps and preamp.
I mostly listen to vocals, jazz standards, and folk acoustic although I also put on some ambient when I am reading, cooking, etc. I am getting on in years and have noticed fall off in my ability to perceive the upper frequencies but still enjoy listening. No video/movies.
Which speakers would work well with my amps and this big room? I am looking for a bigger sweet spot (soundstage?) , more presence to fill the room a little better without losing the clarity, the realism and the quick response (articulate?) of the maggies.
Currently I moved a pair of magnepan 3.7i driven by a pair of sanders magtech mono block amplifiers into this room. These amps are rated to 2000w into 4 ohms and I have to be careful not to blow the fuses on the maggies . Preamp is a Schitt Freya +. The sound is superb. Until I set this system up, I really didn't know what people were talking about when they said they could 'see the instruments'. Positioning the maggies 5' away from the back wall is no problem but they cannot fill the room. I added a pair of rhythmic subs and the lower end is better. The imaging does require proper positioning and seating. You cannot really have a good listening experience unless you are in the sweet spot. That limits the experience to two people sitting really close. In addition, they are big and now with the subs, I am getting dirty looks from the boss of the house.
So I am looking for a pair floor standing speakers that can stand up to this room but that might be less imposing. Budget <12k. The walls have heavy curtains, thick rug on the floor so echo is well controlled. The weird asymmetric shape of the room also prevents any boominess. I listened to the B&W 802D but found them harsh (I don't remember the amp that was driving them). I remember a pair of salon2 and they had quite a large sweet spot along with beautiful clarity. Used the salon2 are around 11k. I have looked at (but not listened to) the Golden Ear Triton reference as well as the Triangle Magellan reference and the Gershan avant garde. Revel f228be are also on my list. I would like to keep my amps and preamp.
I mostly listen to vocals, jazz standards, and folk acoustic although I also put on some ambient when I am reading, cooking, etc. I am getting on in years and have noticed fall off in my ability to perceive the upper frequencies but still enjoy listening. No video/movies.
Which speakers would work well with my amps and this big room? I am looking for a bigger sweet spot (soundstage?) , more presence to fill the room a little better without losing the clarity, the realism and the quick response (articulate?) of the maggies.
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- 22 posts total
@topjetboy wrote: " @Duke I never had the maggies 2 feet away. I tried it today but really did not like it. As it is now, they are back to 5 feet away from the back and 2 ft away from the side." Well I admire your quest for knowledge in trying 2 feet! Yup, it sucks. Those additional 3 feet (to bring them out to 5 feet) make a huge improvement, because of the additional time delay they impose on the arrival of the backwave. " When I cross them to 45 degrees, the ’sweet spot’ is broader but the image is blurred." Maggies are NOT good candidates for the extreme toe-in that I suggested. Their radiation pattern is generally too wide, and the tonal balance changes at different horizontal angles due to the side-by-side driver configuration. " Are you using dipoles (electrostatic, maggie, etc)? " No, I’m using what might be called an "asymmetric bi-directional" configuration. The first-arrival sound comes from a fairly directional front-firing array, then the reverberant field is augmented by an up-and-back firing array, whose output bounces off at least one wall and then off the ceiling before arriving at the listening area. This long two-bounce path mimics the path length of a dipole speaker pulled at least 5 feet out into the room, but without requiring that much distance. The SPL and spectral balance of the up-and-back firing array is user-adjustable, for adaptation to different room acoustic situations. The Part-Time Audiophile took some good photos at a show last summer. Note the aggressive toe-in, and the up-and-back firing coaxial speaker installed in the speaker stand: https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2019/06/17/new-gear-from-audiokinesis-and-resonessence-labs-t-h-e-sho... Duke |
There’s a pair of Nola KO 2s for sale at Upscale Audio for $7670 ($14,000 retail) that may deliver everything you’re looking for. Like the Maggies it’s a dipole design but with a line array of multiple dynamic midrange and tweeter drivers that helps with scale and dynamics. As a result they play large yet retain a relatively small footprint. Just another option, and best of luck in your search. |
"nice setup." Thank you! "I was looking for the mentioned ’space generator’. Is that something from another dimension?" Yes and no. We interface the pandimensional locality field with a velocity zone, then rotate the phase such that the spacetime continuum is expanded instead of time-dilated. So space isn’t actually "generated", but our marketing department thought the name sounded cool. Seriously, the "Space Generator" is that upwards-and-backwards firing coaxial. The madness behind the method goes something like this: In our home audio listening rooms, there is a competition between the spatial cues on the recording (which are desirable, whether they be real or engineered) and the spatial cues of the playback room (which are undesirable). The ear/brain system can pick out the recording venue reverberation cues in the recording FROM the reflections in the playback room, even down into the noise floor, because it recognizes the harmonic patterns. And we WANT the reverberation in the recording to be presented from all around, so we don’t want the room to be overdamped. Unfortunately all too often, the playback room’s "small room signature" is stronger and therefore dominates our perception. We may we resort to aggressive absorption which can be a net improvement, but we lose much of those beneficial late-arrival reflections along the way so we never really achieve "envelopment". Now it is the earliest in-room reflections which most strongly convey "small room signature", so THOSE are the ones we want really to minimize. We do this by using a directional front-firing array and aiming (toeing-in) to avoid early same-side-wall reflections. Then in order to effectively present the spatial cues on the recording, we add a bit of extra reverberant energy via the coaxial unit, aimed such that it takes at least 10 milliseconds longer than the direct sound to reach the listening area. This time gap in between the direct sound and the strong onset of reflections is the key. With this set-up and a good recording, the venue cues dominate over the "small room signature" cues of the playback room. So it sounds like you are in a much bigger room... hence the name "Space Generator". Now in all fairness your ear/brain system is coming up with its "best guess" based on a poverty of cues, but this is still generally a significant improvement over conventional speakers. The tonality doesn’t change when you toggle the space generator off and on, but the spatial "feel" does. (The only time we have heard some detriment is when the Space Generators are turned up too loud, and then clarity starts to be degraded. So the "sweet spot" is just before that happens.) That being said, you can accomplish essentially the same thing by pulling your Maggies five feet out into the room, like you’ve been doing. We’re able to fine-tune it a bit more to the specific room acoustic situation by having controls on the Space Generator section... for instance, we’ve found that the "optimum" relative loudness level of the Space Generator section is not as loud as the backwave of a dipole normally is. The math that I use indicates your Maggies may sound even better about 7 or 8 feet out into the room, but that may not be practical. (The same psychoacoustic principles apply in concert halls. In locations where the ear can differentiate between the direct sound and the reverberant sound the listener experiences both clarity and envelopment at the same time, and these are the really good seats. Credit to David Griesinger for this insight.) Hmmm. Maybe my first explanation made more sense! Duke |
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