speaker synergy and halo jc-1's

Well, I listened to the VR's today.
First I'll go through the music, then the systems then my impressions.
1. Wagner-Karajan conducting- Tanhauser overture
2. Siri's Svale Band- "Black Bird"-Tr.1 "Don't Explain"
3. Chemical Brothers- "Singles 93-03", Tracks 2 and 4
4. Ben Harper-"Fight for your Mind", Tr 3 "Another Lonely Day"
5. Audioslave- "Audioslave", Tr 3 "Gasoline"
6. Boys to Men- "Legacy", Tr 2 "It's so hard to say Goodbye"
7. Bill Holman- "Brilliant Corners" XRCD, Tr 1 and 2

System 1: Classe CDP-100
Classe CA-2100 Power Amp (100w/ch)
Classe Cp- 500 Pre
VR4 jr
Nordost Thor
Nordost Quatrofil interconnect
Nordost SPM ref speaker wire

System 2: BAT VK-D5SE
BAT VK-250 + BAT Pak (150w/ch)
BAT VK-31SE
VR4 sr
PS Audio (PLC- don't know which one)
Nordost Valhalla interconnects and speaker wire

Unfortunately, the jr's had only about 50 hours on them, and so there was a lot of glare on the top end especially with the techno. I have heard them sound better than this, so I didn't spend as much time with them as I have in the past.
My disappointment stems with the sr's.
Are they accurate? Yes.
Do they have slam? Yes.
Do they present a large soundstage- sometimes- depending on what type of music I played.

What they didn't do is make feel as if I was there. I didn't feel as involved as I thought I should. With some of the music it did become magical, with a lot of it it did not. Don't get me wrong they are better than jr's, but right now I don't feel they are worth twice the money the jr's are. Now they only had 200 or so hours on them, but I thought they should be pretty broken in by now.
I was expecting the difference between the sr's and jr's to be the difference between let's say an XRCD versus a standard issue cd. I feel the differences between these speakers is much less than that analogy.

Cytocycle, I know exactly what you mean about the difference between Japanese and Italian motorcycles. I have had a few Japanese bikes in the past, but now with the Monster, I'll never go back. The Italian bikes elicit a passionate response that the Japanese bikes can't seem to duplicate. I'm not sure if this is the difference you mean between the Wilson's and the VR's. All I know is that when I listen to music, I want it to elicit that same passionate response and satisfaction within me after I come back from a ride. I didn't get that today with the sr's.

The Krell/Wilson combo is going to be a little bright and harsh but you will get the idea if they are setup correctly (Wilson's are like a microscope) The Sophia's will work with SS or tubes flawlessly and it is a stable 4ohm load (doesn't dip below). My friend powers them with an ARC 50watt a channel integrated (and he used a 200 watt ARC D400 MkII SS amp also before) and still has tremendous bass (using transparent Super MM cables). Your JC-1’s will barely come out of the 25watts of Class A bias would be my guess for most of your listening.

The VR's whether it is the bargain Gen III HSE that Tvad and Perfectionist has all have a very different presentation than the wilson's and the SR's may be perceived WP7 comp. but the I couldn't really say as I haven't heard the SR, but it's a huge speaker, the WP7 is know for producing amazing sound from a very small package that disappears in the room, plus fit and finish on the Wilson are extreme! 150lbs each for the Sophia in a small package...that is why the bass is tighter and more defined than the VR's (even though more quanity and lower bass is produced by the VR’s). The VR's have more rock and roll sound, the Sophia can play anything with precision like it's dissecting the music.

Your Monster S4 is awesome I have a friend that just got one and had the stock cans gutted and then reprogrammed. I wanted a Duc 748 back then but knew I couldn't keep me off the race track (I use to race) so I got the guzzi to keep my license in check.

Actually the motorcycle analogy could probably be used.... You could have bought a Jap bike -VR or you could buy the finesse of a Ducati - Wilson. And yes there is a price difference but the Brembo Brakes, fully adjustable suspension, stainless steel brake lines, etc are what put the passion in your Ducati. It's about the feel/control not about the specs. The Jap bike might be faster and even have better ratings, but the Duc just feels right...

Check all the details on the Wilson (he's a fanatic) (like they use resisters in a recessed plate that has Allen bolts on it so that if you blew a tube or played it too loud it damages the resister and never makes it to the driver!) Wilson keeps touch up paint for 5 years for you and plus you can get any color you want and the finish dare I say is better then my motorcycle! Think of fully adjustable suspension on your bike = the setup instructions for the Wilson (much easier on the Sophia's versus the WP7)....

Like I said before either people get it or they don't with Wilson's... just like Italian motorcycles - You should hear the music my 1100cc Guzzi makes racing through the hills being slowed by Brembo brakes and driven out of the corners orchestrated by the dry clutch and fully adjustable hydraulic controls... Magic when it is all working right!

Chris, I'm going to listen to the SR's and JR's on an all BAT system tomorrow and I'll let you know how it goes. A few weeks later I'll cross the border (to MI) to listen to the Sophia's- I think they're with a Krell system.
Now here's the thing- I can probably get the Sophia's cheaper or at the same price as the SR's. Now I'm not sure if you have heard them, but my VS dealer states the SR's compete with W/P 7's, and not the Sophia's. Is that an accurate statement? I know price will not affect my decision in the end- whatever I like best is what I'll get, but I do like getting value for my money. What are your thoughts on this?
The other thing you mentioned in your first post is that the VR's provide a more fleshed out presentation- are they "warmer" than the Sophia's? Are the Sophia's better suited to tube than SS amplification?
BTW, I was surfing around and saw you have a Guzzi- I'm a Duck owner. I have an '02 Monster S4 and I love it.
Cheers

Vargus: The Wilson's are a premium compared to the bargain VR's,but I feel that as a Wilson owner that I would not feel the need to switch speakers (which makes them a bargain in my eye). The Sophia's do not require a sub, but if you are looking for getting a speaker that includes a Sub (aka movies in a large room) the VR4 SE III or the VRSR would provide that. The other cool thing is the Wilson disappear in the room and can be put as close to the back wall using the WASP setup that wilson provides, so they don't overwhelm a smaller room and this was key for me. My room now is 12x16 and I've had them in a 10x12 room also (without the sub)
If you like the intimate sound of your 805's or any good monitor where you can really see into the music and the minute details of the presentation then you will appreciate the Wilson Sophia's. The Sophia speed and crossover integration are truely amazing and this is what I couldn't live with on the VR's. I could life with the Sophia's and less electronics ($) for a same total system cost and be happerier for longer. Keep in mind I'm a planar guy and I value speed and I use to play the upright bass and the wilson speakers are one of the few that.
You really have to bring your own music and listen to a properly setup (which is hard to find) set of wilson's to appreciate the character... moving them 1/4" is very noticable but that's why the dealer uncrates them and sets them up for you in you house!

Chris

Cytocycle, thanks for your response. Since you have heard both the VR's and the Sophia's, maybe you could comment on which would be the one that is more tonally coherent, the one with which you could play all types of music and not get fatigued by listening for hours on end? I've just bought a few XRCD's and even listening on my little Linn Classik and 805 matrix system, I'm amazed at what I can hear, so I've been listening to all kinds of music . Basically I'm asking what will be a better "jack of all trades" speaker, one that I can live with for many years.
Also, do you mean to say that the Sophia's would require the use of a sub, because this will preclude me from buying them.
It's funny you mention using the audio aero direct because I recently spoke to Johnathan Tinn (thanks for your advice, John) at Chambers Audio and that's exactly what he recommended except to use the system with VR4SR's. That system had been my original intent and I'm very tempted to go that way.
By the way I like your choice of colors for the Wilson's. You must be one of the Tifosi!
Cheers

If you like Electronic type music the Sophia have laser imaging (Merlin's are suppose to have this similar quality) and super fast attack/decay which the VR (basically most conventional speakers) as good as they are can't compete with, this is an electrostatic quality but with more dynamics. With that being said the VR provide more lower mid boom, and you won't need a subwoofer. The VR provide a more fleshed out presentation.
The Sophia is more accurate in the details and control but still sounds similar to a really excellent monitor. The nice thing about the sophia is that it is really tolerant of a wide range of electronics versus WP7's and will work just fine with the JC-1's (but get a warmer preamp or use the audioaero direct). Or even a good integrated (Rowland, Bat,etc)
I have heard VR 4jr's with Naim, I've listened to the Perfectionist system (talk about bass hits!) and my other friend has Sophia's (goten1969) powered by ARC VS55i integrated tube amp resulting in probably one of the most amazing soundstages I've heard. I own WP7's and I have heard the Sophias sound good on VTL, ARC, Rowland and I've heard them sound bad (to hot) on Classe and Levinson.

People either get the Wilson thing or they don't...

Thanks for the advice, Perfectionist. I have been reading on this forum as well as others, that the jc-1's need serious break in time- my dealer is going to run them in for me when they initially arrive. I'll move them over to my place when my sound room/living room is finished with renovations. Between the two of us, we should have 1500 hours of break in before I start critically listening. I am going to try to get the SR and JR's for an in home audition, and my local dealer will try to get a pair of Sophia's as well for me to try. I'd say this will probably be in mid Sept. and I'll let you know how it goes.
Jfz- I'd like to try out the Merlin's, but no local dealer. Haven't heard of the Cerious speakers- I'll do a web search for them.
Thanks

Well, first off, be prepared for a 1500 hour break-in on the JC1's, this is fact not fiction.
I think the SR's may be a little too much speaker for that room. My listening area is 17'x17'x10', but the actual room is 40' long. I couldn't imagine my VR4's in a room smaller than mine (17'x17'). But you have to make the call on it in the end. I can't comment on the Sophia's as I've never heard them.

Vargus - In the price range you're considering I would also suggesting checking out the Merlin VSM MX and the new Cerious Technologies "Cerious One".

Shang,
Not trying to get off the subject or anything, but:
How do the JC-1's and the Belles 350A Reference compare sonically head to head?
Thanks.

Perfectionist, I am glad to finally hear from one of my fellow jc-1 owners. I haven't received them yet- about 10 days away- can't wait.
I have heard the vr4jr's with BAT and Classe at a local dealer and was impressed. It remains my first choice, but I was wondering about the vr4sr. Would the sr's work in a room 14 x16 feet in size, or would they be too large?
My other question is regarding comparison between the vr4's (in jr/sr iteration) and Wilson Sophia's Any thoughts regarding strengths and weaknesses as well as suitability with the jc-1's
Thanks for your responses to my thread

I'm using VSA VR4's w/JC1's to great affect, but they need some breathing room. I've not heard the VR4 jr's, but have heard very good things about them and VSA is a great company to deal with. JC1's will easily put a vice-grip like hold on those jr's, this I'm sure of. Check out my system if you want to get a better idea of my thoughts on both JC1's and the VR4's.

Thanks, Schang. I live in Canada and don't have easy access to the SP Tech. Any others you tried out?
I have read alot about Hyperion, but wondering about synergy as well as long term customer support. Any hyperion owners shed some light on this?

Cheers

check out SP Tech. www.4sptech.com
I have a pair of JC-1s and Belles 350A Ref. monoblocks. If you're in Denver area, you're welcome to stop by and hear for youself.