Speaker shootout question -- do you position the same or differently, depending?

FWIW, "roughly" optimal position is not an oxymoron. We can call it "nearly optimal" if you prefer. The point is that if one is using REW for SPL and Impulse, there are various levels of precision one can get -- within 8 db, at this or that frequency, or this level of smearing reflections above -20 db. If you have not used REW, you don’t know what I mean, but when one is trying to make sure "most of the notes" are there -- and not too "peaky" AND one is trying to avoid a level of reflection which would damage the accuracy of sound stage imaging, there are any number of compromises and different degrees of accuracy one could accept in order to go back to listening. It’s an iterative process - listen, measure, listen again.

So, you can see that I’m not in the "walking around the room, clapping" camp, nor am I in the "optimal is simply one thing" camp. This is a complicated, iterative, measuring-and-listening process -- even for one speaker -- so adding a second speaker in, of a different kind (tower not stand mount) makes it even more complicated.

And please don’t tell me I’m over-complicating it. You can say, "That’s too complicated for me" if you wish. But I hear the results of this process and they exceed by a large margin trial and error.

rbstenho -- I can position things in many places. My WAF is that she wants me do what I want. But I'm curious what others do when the are bound by a more constrictive arrangement, just in case I decide to move to a room that has more limitations.

I agree with finding the optimal position. I agree that any one pair should be removed to get out of the other pair's way. 

Johnny, not sure what you mean by "The room dictates the best position not the given speaker" since it would be room-AND-speaker, right?

@riley804 No, it's not my first time. Far from it. But I did two sweeps with REW with the speakers in exactly the same position and the differences between them was very interesting. I recognize that finding the optimal position is, well, optimal. But for folks who may have another way of testing both their room and the speaker, e.g., when there is a lack of flexibility in the placement, I thought I'd open it up. Maybe it was too dumb a question to do a thread on!

@snilf @snilf Good suggestions. I have a backup Adcom amp with A & B speaker sets. I could quick switch with those. Of course, the speakers would be coming through the Adcom rather than my tube amps, and couldn’t use my better speaker cables, but at least both speakers would have the same cables and the same power amp.

@jjss49 @djones51 @jjss49 @djones51 Thanks for saying so. The back and forth between listening and measuring strikes some as over the top but this is exactly how many hobbyists do it, and of course speaker companies, too (such as Harman). It’s not just measuring but an iterative process. Paul McGowan talks about this all the time — design, measure, listen, design, measure, listen.

These topics seem so simple to some (who have likely just done things the same way forever) but once the suggestions start coming in, it’s clear that the complexity of both acoustics and how people decide to test their own perception makes the experimental procedures involved quite varied, indeed.

@bjesien @bjesien

"In my experience different speakers with behave quite differently depending on placement to boundaries and distance to listing position (reflection points, nodes, etc.) The position of the drivers in the cabinet will give a wildly different presentation, as will the width and depth of the cabinets."

This is so true. In fact, just playing with the height of my seating position the other day, I realized how much different the new speakers were with a 2" lower seating position -- a change which did not affect the older pair at all.

Also +1 about the comment regarding the need for a "symmetrical space." While my room IS a rectangle with (somewhat different kinds of bookshelves on both sides), one is easily fooled into thinking that it is symmetrical. This is where REW is so helpful. Do a sweep with just left and just right and the differences are *immediately* apparent.

@astolfor @astolfor
"Your ear will take you 60-70% there depending how difficult your room is, but to do it right you need to use some application like REW and decent calibrated microphones to get past that 70%….I know that what I am going to say is subjective, but using my ears and REW, the transformation of the sound was/is nothing short incredible."

I totally agree — after positioning things in places they "sound good," I measure and adjust and then listen again. What the anti-measure people don’t realize is that when there are big dips in a curve, they could be missing even an octave of notes but because they brain tends to create a "gestalt" they don’t notice anything is missing, often. But once those dips are removed, one can perceive additional notes — manifesting, often, as voices or instruments playing those parts — and realize they were missing important parts of the music.

Here’s the curve I achieved using REW *after* listening:

And here is the impulse graph, above -20db, where things start to get smeared. I went from a forest of reflections to a few scattered trees, and the definition on images throughout the soundstage got startlingly firm. 

@djones51 That’s a measurement of an Ascend Sierra Tower with RAAL tweeter along with 2 Rythmic subs and a REL 328 sub, in well treated room. The speaker measured much differently in a different position and without subs or treatment.

Can you say what you don’t like about the graph? Here’s how it measured before subs and treatment (initial tone was 80 dB):

@djones51  I agree with your comments about both red and blue plots. I think the blue plot represents a great improvement over the red one, but I'd like to try to get it to where you describe and then take a listen. I have not measured at 3 feet. I'll try that.

Agon should have a thread for measurements and commentary, as well as one for rooms and treatment. 

@richopp Right, the room is important. Got it. Also, the ROOM is important. ;-)

Thanks for posting graphs. Very interesting and great improvements!

@djones51 Nice graph! Any DSP?

Agree about starting without treatments and building up. 

@djones51 

 IMO some people overdo treatments and overthink their gear.

This is exactly what happened to me. I was gifted a variety of different treatments (corner traps, bass traps, diffusers) and also bought some Real Traps. In order to see how they could affect my room, I tried them all, then started to remove them. Overdamping was my problem.

I realize now that the goal is to find the minimum needed.