Speaker positioning and center image depth

@tablejockey Agree. I will confide that just a few days ago I visited a nationally known dealer in another part of the country with multiple audio rooms containing equipment totaling over $1MM in each room (I won’t get into naming where this was out of respect for the dealership). I was excited to see the caliber of the equipment, but was shocked at how bad the rooms sounded due to horrible acoustics. Each room had some treatments, too, but not enough given the configuration of the rooms. I ended up having to reposition the speakers myself in each room as I was listening, but it only helped so much due to the detrimental effect of the reflections and reverberations.

@newbee Thanks for the reference track, I’ll look into it. 

I agree it’s not just about the center image, I guess I was just trying to make a simplified point vs trying to generalize the relationship between positioning and the depth of the entire stage, which is more complicated. And I agree that all aspects of positioning and treatment are important, especially in relation to the listener’s sitting chair as some speakers are better for near field vs from farther away. My point was really revolving around how people attribute a speaker as one with a forward or deep soundstage, but in reality, those attributes have much to deal with how a speaker is set up vs the speaker itself.

@curiousjim Birds is one of my reference tracks. The imaging of the clapping / percussion is incredible, as is the split of the vocals on the stage. That is a great track to test with as it is perfect for demonstrating what I am getting at above. There is a thin margin in the rooms I’ve set up where the clapping / percussion is almost directly to the sides, and the center image is still spot on. Otherwise in sub-optimal setups you lose clarity in one or the other. 

@curiousjim When I listen, I typically enjoy the 80-85db range, sometimes louder when I want to rock out, and sometimes lower when I’m relaxing at night. When I demo for others, I tend to start at the 75-80db range and hand the remote to customers or friends and encourage them not to be shy with the volume. Some prefer to turn it up after, and some turn it down to hear what the system sounds like at lower volumes.

I tend to find that in my own room if I turn up the volume too much, like into the 100s, the soundstage depth gets compromised. Many times, in most systems slightly lower volumes are best for demonstrating the depth of the stage.

I also think the best dealers and audiophiles who let others demo are ones that do not try to put on tracks for others and hover around them, but rather show the person how to maneuver libraries and controls and give the listener some freedom and space to get acquainted. 

I appreciate everyone’s input and resonate with much of what has been expressed. Especially @bobpyle on the wow factor vs trade offs, @walkup with every component/cable making a difference, and @tjag on treating the room properly.

I would be lying if I said I believe that I had my speakers set up perfectly, or all the correct treatments in the right places, or the best components and system synergy. But trial and error has gotten me to a place where the combinations of these things are producing results that I believe surpass many other systems I hear.

This doesn’t mean that I don’t appreciate other systems that I hear - in fact it’s opposite. So many audiophiles listen to another’s’ system and are quick to point out its flaws, similar to how @bobpyle points out the wow factors & tradeoffs, but they don’t approach it open-mindedly enough to understand and resonate with the possible wow factors. Everyone has a perspective in which they think is the truth. With audio, there is some directional agreement on what the truth is, but at the end of the day, it is absolutely personal based on an individual’s perceptions. 

I don’t want this to become a measurements vs sonics thread, as I absolutely believe in how something sounds vs how it measures. But it brings me back to my original reason for posting. Much (no, not everything) of what is communicated in reviews and forums to generalize the soundstaging and imaging of a speaker is largely dependent on the communicator’s past experiences with gear (which may be very limited) and the way the speakers were set up in the room, along with all of the other variables shared so far. It is for this reason that I will not let reviews or chatter alone drive my decision on a speaker and need to experience one that moves me (at least in the same brand/line if not the exact speaker) to help me define my convictions of how it sounds. This makes me take what everyone else says about a particular pair of speakers with a grain of salt.

@soix, I agree - there are definitely speakers that can play big and/or deep compared to others, ones that are more holographic. Thank you for your sharing your appreciation on the post!

I would also add Borresen/Raidho, Quad and Magnepan to the list you started. Maggies are a particular speaker many boast of having a deep soundstage, but I’ve also heard them configured to project a forward soundstage. I’m able to do the same with my Borresen. Perhaps it might be that as long as a speaker performs and images well, it can be set up to have a deep or forward soundstage depending on how it is positioned?

@larry5729, ​​​​@falconquest and others who have set up their speakers using the Master Set methodology. Do you find this methodology to produce a holographic stage? I’ve heard dealers set up rooms where the sound was very well distributed and tone was spot on, but it generated more of a wall of sound vs pinpoint, holographic imaging. Generally, I’ve found it is very difficult, if not impossible, to achieve a truly holographic presentation that delivers outside of the primary listening position. 

@juanmanuelfangioii ​​​​and @tablejockey I would say the Cardas and 1/3rd rules are very good places to start, but I also argue that the height and slope of a ceiling will greatly influence positioning. Taller ceilings (>11ft) and sloped ceilings both complicate matters as the volume of the room increases and as such some speakers need to be nearer to the wall to take advantage of the possible room gain.

When people walk into my room, which is 19x23 with a sloped ceiling (9’ in front for me, 18’ behind me), they tend to say “This is the best type of room, it emulates a horn”. Yes, reflections are minimized in this kind of design, but so is the ability for a speaker to charge the room. Oh, the fun adventures of positioning!

@twoleftears I love the humor, but I can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic or if you actually wish that the soundstage was more forward. If so, try toeing in slightly memore or bringing your speakers closer together. 

@wolf_garcia This thread is not about me seeking coaching, but sharing my experience and perspective in a way that I want to relate with others who may have experienced the same. If anything, perhaps I’m the one guilty of offering coaching, and if so, then I think that is a wonderful thing.

That said, the responses from the community here includes perspective and learnings that have enlightened me as well, so I would say my goal with this thread has been reached, like it or not. 

@retiredfarmer Lots of great thoughts here, thanks for sharing. I love the Roger Waters Amused to Death album - I was only introduced to it in the last two years. Done properly, the first track "The Ballad of Bill Hubbard" has a full 180-degree wide soundstage. It's very trippy.

"Funny how a person  doesn't think it sounds muddy until you take some of it away." - Love this, as it all comes down to one's perceptual baseline and what they believe is truth. Making these types of improvements reveal new truths, which are often obscured even when you see music live. I think many audiophiles will agree that their systems often if not always sound better than live shows!

@twoleftears That's what I thought. :)

@sns Agree, especially when considering a tried and true design like the Cornwalls which are meant to be positioned in the corners. When you say meticulous attention, it sure does vary by speaker. Some speakers have incredibly small sweet spots, but getting them right pays off handsomely, and other speakers may have larger sweet spots, but they compromise overall dimensionality. And then there are the speakers that can have a large sweet spot and image very holographically, and those are very special.

@audiokinesis Your post is thoughtful, and I appreciate that you have not (yet) redirected the conversation in any way to focus on how the role of subs can manipulate the stage (for better or worse), yet of course that is a whole other direction for discussion. I for one would certainly enjoy learning about tested observations / white paper between speaker depth and stage depth, but I agree largely with what you say, as long as a speaker can actually image well. And for sure, managing the reflections and reverberations are as important as the positioning itself.

@mijostyn Both great points, self-awareness and humility go a long way here.

+1 @johnk Great point.

​​​+1 @juanmanuelfangioii If we didn't feel both rewarded and frustrated through the process, we wouldn't feel so highly about the hobby overall. Sometimes enduring the frustration is what makes the rewarding moments even more fulfilling.