Speaker direction?

I would disagree somewhat in the notion that new generation digital music listeners will ever evolve into an audiophile (best sense of the word intended). They may love what they are listening to, but most of what is being consumed is crap. Music appreciation has gone out the window for most of our kids growing during the whoring years of the music industry. MP3 formats emphasize conveinience mainly, over quality. I will allow however for the possibility that an improved playback technology may develop out of the current trends in consumer demands. The most troubling scenario at that point would then relate to what the majority would be listening to...I'm afraid it will be deeply disturbing, empty and poorly recorded. Funny really, we may have access to better, cheaper playback devices but no desire left for enjoying the potential of the format. Rod Serling warned about the decline of the arts back in the early 60's as it relates to the marketing and advertising industries. The more involvement they gain in driving the consumer toward a desired endpoint, the faster the decline of creativity and the mass audiences appreciation of original, important and thoughtfull art. Look to the decline in classical music venue attendance figures, soft jazz, rap and other dumbed down examples of what is now spewed out for mass consumption. The lowest common denominator has become the majority!! LOL

Believe it or not the iPod is the best thing to happen to music. It's not showing up right now, but this new generation will evolve to BETTER sound! because they are at least interested. The future for HD recordings that go hand in hand with Video/Movies is a bright future. You enjoy music like I do. But don't forget what we used to think sounded good...LOL! The NEW Audiophiles will not be as gullible. They are better at math..LOL! No 1,000.00 cable to make a 1,000.00 speaker sound better...LOL! The problem with Hi End audio sales is because the younger generation gets better sound out of an iPod than we did in the 70's with top gear in that time. The winners in high end audio will be those that can produce affordable products that preform at a rate to the money paid. We are guilty for spending 1,000.00 for 1% improvement..if that...LOL! This is the digital age and new Audiophiles will be a new breed.

Calldr, I grew up listening to music in a basement with the lights out. The ipod generation will never understand the complete immersion that is possible with music. Not only has music been dumbed down, but the art of listening has as well...along with the discrimination to even recognise either abilities loss as important.

I believe this subject is based on finding the magic "sweet spot" where the soundstage is..... what your system ( speakers) has or can produce. The amount of toe in is like what was explained above. The best way to know if you have found your "sweet spot" is to know what it sounds like. Meaning that there is a real "soundstage' where music flows between and even past your speaker distance. It can be a pain as mentioned to get it right. One thing some forget to do is make sure that both channels are equal. I use a db meter from radio shack. One point I listen for is vocals. I want them dead center and the most natural. I don't agree with the equal or triangle set up. That is used for most near field monitors and or smaller rooms. For large floor standing speakers the distance and seating is best done by moving your seating position first. Then move the speakers farther apart and try again. Just one foot ( or 6 inches each side and or back wall also ) will made a change. As you are approaching the lock on position for the sweet spot small changes will get you where your system sounds the best. I like to do this at night when the ambient noise level in your room is the quietest and with very little light. Taking your eyes out of the equation helps your ears focus better.

Raquel, I assume you are a woman, because you are correct in everything you said:) Of course, I was generalizing for the average system and the most common mistakes made by audiophiles. I have owned many reference systems, but most were digital based. All things considered, I do believe most audiophiles tend to constrain their systems by placing the speakers incorrectly for whatever reasons they may have.

Dave_b:

"The more toe in used the the [sic] smaller the soundstage." In fact, it depends upon the speaker and the room. A speaker like your WP 6 requires toe-in due to beaming caused in the upper mids by the use of what is basically a woofer as a midrange cone. Some speakers can achieve best staging when the axis crosses several feet in front of the listener (Revel Salons in some set-ups), others tend to sound best with no toe-in (Thiels), etc.

"Speakers should be on the long wall and 10 to 12 ft apart min." D'Appolito'd speakers like Dunlavys can play best that way, but many speakers will have a weak or non-existent center image if run without toe-in. As for long wall versus short wall, long wall happens to be my preference with most speakers, but not always.

"Seating should be no more than the distance apart, preferrably a ltlle [sic] less." Many speakers are best listened to far-field, particularly those with drivers spaced far apart so that the sound coming off the drivers has the space needed to properly integrate. The room boundaries and room treatment also affect optimal listening distance.

"Sit low with back against treated wall if possible." It depends. A basic rule of listening room acoustics is that either the front wall or back wall should be treated, but not both (and not always the back wall). Also, some speakers (the Aerial 20-T) require space behind the listener.

If you are interested, Robert Harley's book about hi-fi basics covers a lot of these points. Also, I noticed that your system is all-digital and uses Krell electronics - do you have experience with other types of systems?

The more toe in used the the smaller the soundstage. Dynamics are also compressed. Some frequencies will be reduced more and others accentuated depending on room placement. The only reason I sold my Watt/Puppy 6's was do to the design flaw of having to aim them at your head ala headphones...without the toe in, imaging was unfocused. Theoreticals aren't worth diddly sometimes. I prefer my room to be filled with a living breathing sounscape...unrestricted and unhyped! Speakers should be on the long wall and 10 to 12 ft apart min. Seating should be no more than the distance apart, preferrably a ltlle less. Toe in only for adequate, realistic focus. Sit low with back against treated wall if possible.

It depends on the speakers and the room. I have had a pair of Mirage M5si's for 12 years, set up in 3 different houses. In the first house they sounded best slightly toed in. In the second house they definitely sounded better facing straight ahead. And in the third house (where they've been for 9-1/2 years) they sound best toed in a little more than they were in the first house.

In each case, the toe-in I settled on or eliminated was based on the best image focus and clarity of sound in the listening area.

Some speakers even sound best angled at a point about a foot *in front* of the listening seat.

The only way to know is to experiment, and yes, it's a pain in the ass, especially with big spiked speakers, and those Mirages weigh 85 lbs. each. Still, the perseverence paid big dividends in listening enjoyment.

How about their & there!

best way to find out is to try it....Depends on how the speakers are designed...Some sound best straight ahead ( Kharmas ) and others need to be angled in...Try it yourself and trust your own ears.........I have Klipsch and found they work best for me angled in slightly......