According to the price lists they are in one category, but anyone could comment on quality/performance? At the moment i use big Teak Wood plinth (just $750) custom made in Taiwan for my SP10mk2. Looking for upgrade in the future. I use my sp10mk2 with Reed "12 tonearm now. Doest the plinth actually makes a big difference in sound? My stand is well damped with glass, metal and sarbothane in between.
2) Steve Dobbins famous custom plinth cost $2650 including three Stillpoints feet and automotive show quality paint in black or white. Design has changed many times, still hard to find any current plinth picture online.
I know there are Albert Porter's and Artisan Fidelity quality plinth available, but i don't like the design (i mean just how it looks) for SP10.
SH10-B3 - for SP10mkii & SP20 obsidian /wood base, 12kg
Guys, have any of you ever seen an original SH10B3 plinth different from the usual black color high gloss?
I own had this for quite some time, I am convinced that it is very very rare, the reason why Panasonic decided to apply a different color is completely unknown to me.
@nandric I was simply curious to understand why the Technics made this obsidian plinth (the photos are of my plinth) gray with veins rather than black like all those produced and seen in the world.
Is this a special series? I have never been able to discover anything about my strange plinth for this I ask in forums that I attend if anyone can know the story.
Been working on the project for a friend who has purchased my Technis SP-10mkII with Micro Seiki CU-500 copper mat. He decided to go Obsidian way and i was looking for SH-10B3 plinth for him. Finally i got it and it looks better than i expected in my studio.
Not sure how we can find a dust cover, but he asked me to find one. Must be hard to find. The Obsidian base will be polished by a local guy next week. I think it will be even better than what we have now.
I’ve noticed that we have to make custom armboard, because the Victor UA-7045 tonearm must be mounted 7-12mm lower than the level of the stock armboard to make the arm wand parallel to the platter.
The stock footers will be removed and replaced by mi Audio-Technica AT-616 pneumatic insulators.
The AT-616 is much bigger in diameter than the older AT-636. The 616 supports up to 60kg! But the smaller AT-636 support only 36kg max.
Actualy on those pictures you see the mega rare 2.7kg CU-500, not 1.8kg CU-180 mat.
SAEC SS-300 is the mat i use along with Micro CU-180 right now on my two Luxman PD-444 turntables. Saec weight is 870g, but CU-180 weight is 1.8kg. Actually even 1.8kg is too much for my Luxman, so the SAEC is better if the torque of the turntable is not so high as on the Technics DD.
Also the price for SAEC mats are much better/cheaper than for Micro Seiki mat. SAEC is a champ of the mats in my opinion, the typical price tag is under $400 (depends on condition), but the Micro CU-180 price tag is under $800 nowadays. The Micro has its luxury look (copper) and it must be scratch free and clean, the SAEC is just black.
I've seen a technical test of the most popular mats in the old Japanese magazine from the 80's. The SAEC is closer to the Micro CU-500 than to CU-180. I think all 3 mats are oustanding! Some of them just too heavy for certain turntables. Technics can hande all 3 mats with ease, even the superheavy CU-500!
but the Micro CU-180 price tag is under $800 nowadays.
I saw the prices in vertiginous climb for the 180 year since a year ...are all crazy!!!!!
I can feel lucky that last year an audiophile friend sold me his unused CU 180 for € 300.
I think that in the current days there is nothing better wanting to buy a good mat at honest price look at the Tenuto of PureSound done gun metal at 370 euro new and sold by the same manufacturer on ebay.
thank you for information Audio Technica 616 feet, rare but with so much luck you could find. I will try to look for them.
You are lucky, because ugly looking and scratched CU-180 goes on ebay for much higher prices nowadays. I sold my spare last year for $750 to another audiogon member, but it was MINT- condition, this is the picrure. It’s nearly impossible to find Micro Seiki CU-180 "as new" without scratches and dirt on it.
I paid neraly $1k myself for my CU-500 in mint condition, it was more than 5 years ago and i’ve never seen another for sale! Even 5 years ago the CU-180 was about $500 minimum.
I am not interested in replicas as i am not sure the gunmental of the 70’s is the same as that copper of today. Anyway, i prefer the original products.
Surely there is a chance to buy some nice products cheaper once in a year or so, but i’m talking about the average price tags, vintage things like that only goes up in the price in time. It’s a good investment @best-groove
My friend decided to make a custom armboard for his Obsidian Plinth. The reason is that the original armboard position is still too high for Victor UA-7045 tonearm to make the arwand parallel to the record surface. I don't know why Technics made it like that (it's very bad). The Drive is lowered down in the Obsidian Plinth and tonearm must be lowered down too, but it's not. For example the Victor US-7045 must be lowered down in the armboard for 7-12mm. Victor has VTA on the fly, but even at the lowest position it is not low enough. Here is the Victor UA-7045 on temporary armboard that will be replaced with a custom made armboard soon.
Wow your CU 180 is really like new, the asking price has been adjusted!!!
My instead was so opaque and full of stains before
but after so much cleaning I brought it back as if it were new. after
SH10B3 base and tonearm panels have been developed originally to create the correct synergy with EPA 100 arm and SP 10 II; if you want to apply other arms you will need to work on the height of the tonearm panel to adapt everything.
I would keep in mind that the "CU" mats made by M-S are expensive not merely because of their association with M-S but also because they are made of copper, which is very expensive these days. I recently had a copper platter sheet made for my Kenwood L07D by a very good machinist who is very reasonable in his charges; it ended up costing $700, more than $200 of which was the cost of the copper sheet that he started with. Well worth the expense; it replaces the stainless steel platter sheet that is standard on the L07D and seems to do a much better job of blocking EMI, even though SS is supposed to be a pretty good shielding material. I too also use an SAEC SS300, which I bought from Raul years ago. It's on my TT101 at the moment. I am not sure what it is made of and would be curious to know, but it's not pure copper.
chakster, do you, or others here, have any experience with the AT-666 mat? It was designed to add vacuum hold down but I recall reading of some using it just as a replacement mat. Raul in fact recommended it with the Technics SP series as a mat only. It weighs 1.4 kg. Also may be easier to find than the CU mats and for much less money.
With some of these heavier mats I'd be concerned not only with start-up torque but possible excessive bearing wear.
I am sure that there will certainly be greater wear on the thrust pad, adding weight not calculated in the design phase by the engineers who developed the SP 10. Fortunately, it is available as a compatible replacement part
@downunder I used a common copper cleaning product and an old toothbrush because the mat is not exactly smooth but has micro grooves like vinyls I insisted a lot and performed more passes but in the end the result was excellent.
After polishing, with a spray I gave a couple of light shredded transparent varnish.
For me the Tenuto mat is a good product, well done, with a weight very similar to the MS CU 180 and reasonable cost.
I was thinking in the future to buy one for other SP 10s I own.
What about the size Tenuto? Micro Seiki fits in (for Technics SP10mkII platter) like it was made for it, not like other mats which can be smaller or bigger in diameter. Micro Seiki is the best for Technics owners. The CU-500 is much thicker than CU-180
I seem to remember from an old mail with the producer that the diameter of the Tenuto mat was 294 mm.
I see your SP10 II and from the picture I recognized some identical images on ebay ........ it is you who had for sale on ebay until yesterday the mat Saec 300?
Thanks best-groove. That is not in Australia, but there are other copper cleaners - just a bit hesitant to use as don't want to remove the laquer finish, so will probably keep as is.
The Tenuto fits the SP10 mk3 and Pioneer P3 fine. Not as perfect as the cu-180 - but at least you can remove it without the need for suction cups :-). It sounds excellent as well - have not compared to the CU-180 thou. the one I have is 2.2kg, so is heavier than the cu-180 - same weight as the CU-500. Since you seem to be in Italy - have you seen or used the TORQUEO AUDIO COPPER MAT . That also looks high quality but more expensive than the Tenuto.
Hi Chakster - I would love your CU-500 or another cu-180 but the cu-190 is up to 3 times more expensive and CU-500 3-6 times more expensive than the Tenuto.
For my SP10mk2, I had a custom machined SS mat 4kg, 292mm diameter and 8mm thickness made by Tran Van tan<tvan_tan@yahoo.com.vn> for $200USD. He is quite skilled at making a variety of metal turntable parts for vintage tables(e.g. Micro Seiki,) at reasonable prices and of excellent quality. I considered copper, ss and two layer combo of the two. The mass & height considerations led me to choose the lowest price option of the three, ss, which gave me great additional mass but not too much for the SP10mk2 and provided the height that allowed a wider range of VTA adjustment when using my EPA250 arm. After @dgarretson brought his ss and copper mats over and we listened to each and both, we found about 5kg was max weight that we'd be comfortable with and in general the closer we got to that amount the better the sound in terms of LF performance.
The Tenuto fits the SP10 mk3 and Pioneer P3 fine. Not as perfect as the cu-180 - but at least you can remove it without the need for suction cups :-).
I simpy flipped over the entire SP-10mkII to remove CU-500 or CU-180 easily without any suction cups.
It sounds excellent as well - have not compared to the CU-180 thou. the one I have is 2.2kg, so is heavier than the cu-180 - same weight as the CU-500.
CU-500 weight is 2.7kg, so it’s heavier.
Hi Chakster - I would love your CU-500 or another cu-180 but the cu-180 is up to 3 times more expensive and CU-500 3-6 times more expensive than the Tenuto.
Hey, yep, but you never know what you can buy on secondhand market. However, as i stated earlier, i’m more fascinated by the classic japanese high-end (especially in mint- condition).
I can only use my CU-180 on Luxman PD-444 and it’s a perfect match for the Luxman platter, no wonder, because the Luxman was made by Micro Seiki. Only 3 silicone or rubber dots muct be placed between the CU-180 and the platter to rise up the mat a little bit. The thickness of the CU-500 would be better match, but the CU-500 is extremely heavy for the motor of the Luxman PD-444.
I see your SP10 II and from the picture I recognized some identical images on ebay ........ it is you who had for sale on ebay until yesterday the mat Saec 300?
Yep, i just sent you PM here on audiogon about your request for the footers, check it. Saec mat went to Miami today.
Dear @downunder : Sp-10s or those japanese massive old designs as MS needs not those kind of metal mats ( other than blocking EMI if that’s a real problem in the TT. ).
The best mat for any TT is the original SOTA mat, yes the one TT manufacturer. . I said " the original " because the designer of that mat gone from SOTA and never disclose the SOTA mat blend build materials and after that the other SOTA mats that were builded and even copy after market ones are way different.
Other than that great mat as @pryso posted the AT 666EX and the AT 665BX. Both better than any of the ones named here. Its vacuum hold down function makes real impprovements, I wiish my SOTA could came with that function.
Btw, @sbank that Vient Nam gentleman works truly fine, good. Now, I'm thinking to change the the metal drivers in my speakers bor a less resonance/more inert metal driver holder. Thank's for share that link. Every day is a learning day !.
Yes, @rauliruegas To make a rhyme you could say Tran Van Tan is the man. BTW, I see your comment "Sp-10s needs not those kind of metal mats" but can tell you that in my system with the SP10mkII, EPA250 and the Signet 111E that I bought from you, the 4kg SS mat is a definite improvement and a number of listeners including respected audio manufacturers who heard it in my system all agree that's the case. FYI, I looked around for the AT mat prior to purchasing mine, but not too many of those around anymore, their big suggested footers too. Cheers, Spencer
Raul - as you know, nothing is for certain in turntables. The MS cu-180 definitely sounds better than the thick or thin technics mat or any other mat I have tried - fits like a glove as well.
With the Pioneer Exclusive P3, not so sure. the P3 rubber mat is original and does things that no other mat has done on the P3. That said, nothing wrong with the sound the Tenuta is producing.
lewm "I would keep in mind that the "CU" mats made by M-S are expensive not
merely because of their association with M-S but also because they are
made of copper, which is very expensive these days."
Slight correction. Vintage Micro Seiki CU series (180, 500) mats were manufactured from gunmetal Copper alloy, which although not "cheap" by way of material is still vastly cheaper than pure Copper to manufacture. The Tenuto mat = gunmetal Copper alloy as well, however, this company also used to make a pure Copper version at one point in time but is now discontinued. After having owned a couple of CU 180's in the past and now an AF pure Copper mat (3.6kgs.), in my personal opinion, a pure Copper platter mat's tonal characteristics are superior in every way.
@ferrari275 you said you tried the slim CU-180 (1.8kg), but try the thick CU-500 (2.7kg) if you want to compete with the AF (3.6kg). Or simply add SAEC SS-300 in this competition. Micro Seiki made comparison chart with various mats of that era, the closest to CU-500 (according to their measurements) is the SAEC SS-300. This is very interesting, because the SAEC is a speciall alloy of only 870g in total.
chakster, the only other mat on my radar would be a stainless steel type. Weight is a factor not to be dismissed but imho, it's not everything. The Cu-500 is still Gunmetal. During listening, I quickly ascertained my AF pure Copper platter mat was heads above the MS Cu-180 Gunmetal Copper alloy, so I had no real motivation to seek out their other mat but perhaps I will buy one to try anyway per your recommendation. To clarify, does anyone know if the SAEC SS-300 compromised of any stainless steel at all? At only 870 g it must be a type of lightweight aluminum alloy, no? I presume by comparison measurements provided at the time by Micro they were referring to weight, density and resonant frequency...ect. I had the hardened aluminum alloy Oyaide MJ-12 years ago and as I recall it was thin anemic sounding, not at all musical so I sold it.
.......mmmmhhh perhaps the heavy weight does not mean everything.
@best-groove My good sir, welcome to the eccentric world of high end audio, nothing means everything! :)
Dear @ferrari275: """
a pure Copper platter mat's tonal characteristics are superior in.........................................................................................
aluminum alloy..........I recall it was thin anemic sounding, not at all musical ...."""
Tonal/anemic characteristics?, I can't understand why we are looking for a kind of sound in the TT mat when what we have to look is for an " inert /non resonant " mat that can damped and don't interfere coloring the cartridge signal.. Metal is resonant no matters its weigth and unfortunatelly resonances/vibrations colors the audio signal and steel is no different. In the aluminum AT the LP is " running " on vacuum and the SOTA is non-metal ones. Normally metal is a bad material in TT/tonearms/cartridges and the like. As less metal in a home audio system as better its quality performance levels. No, we can't disappears metal material from audio items and in some specific items is need it.
Raul, I am surprised that in your post above, you seem to be saying that the platter mat should be "seen but not heard". That's a good goal, but in fact we know that the platter mat is always heard, even if it is heard to be neutral, which is the way I would put it. Can you say more about the SOTA mat? I used to own a Star Sapphire Series III with vacuum, and as I recall, it had a felt-like material that was glued directly to the main body of the platter; it did not have a removable mat. And of course one could not put a mat on top, because it would interdict the vacuum.
Ferrari, Thank you for pointing out that the MS mats are gunmetal copper, not pure copper. I did not appreciate that fact, because I have never seen, much less owned, an M-S platter mat. I did read that the Tenuto mat is also gunmetal copper, not pure copper. However, my recent experience with a true pure copper mat that I had custom-made for my Kenwood L07D is consistent with your observation that pure copper seems to sound superb, and I do not really know why copper seems superior to all other metal mats I have tried, albeit on turntables other than the L07D. Except whereas Raul concedes that a metal mat may function to block EMI, which I think has a lot to do with its superiority on my L07D.
In this case, the pure copper mat replaced the OEM stainless steel "platter sheet" (Kenwood's term for it) supplied with the L07D. Copper is superior to stainless as an EMI shield, which may account in part for my experience with the L07D. Both mats weigh about 5 lbs; I did not wish to greatly exceed the mass of the stainless steel platter sheet in creating the copper replacement, because the L07D platter is partly supported by magnetic repulsion, and also because I am categorically opposed to using after-market mats that are very much heavier than the OEM mat on DD turntables that rely upon a servo mechanism. It may be OK to do it, up to a point (the capacity to tolerate a very heavy mat without disturbing speed stability) , but that point is likely to be different for different turntables. One would have to test the speed stability on a case by case basis using sensitive equipment, in order to feel certain that no new problem is created by a very heavy mat. And this is in addition to putting stress on the bearing and thrust plate. Just my 2 cents on that subject.
I have the original box and original manual for my Micro Seiki CU-180 which i am using now. There is a sticker on the box with model number and they call it "MICRO GOLD DISC CU-180". The manual is in japanese.
Here is more about gunmetal:
Gunmetal is a type of bronze — an alloy of copper, tin and zinc, originally used chiefly for making guns! Proportions vary by source, but 88% copper, 8–10% tin, and 2–4% zinc is an approximation.
Gunmetal, which casts and machines well and is resistant to corrosion from stean and salt water is used to make steam and hydraulic castings, valves, gears, statues, and various small objects, such as buttons. It has a tensile strength of 221 to 310 MPa, a specific gravity of 8.7, a Brinell hardness of 65 to 74, and a melting point of around 1,000 degrees Celsius.
Dear @lewm : The original SOTA mat has not that " felt like material ". The SOTA mat was on sale as an after market mat and goes glued ( self glued. ) to any TT platter, in that way the mat is part of the TT platter and not changeable: it keeps fixed there for ever. Another very good characteristic is that its spindle center hole is small diameter enough for the spindle form part of the TT/MAT part. The mat has no " play " around the spindle even you have to push it with care but enough pressure to install it.. It helps to damps the metal spindle too. Was very good thinking item other than its undisclosed build blend material. Recomended.
Dear Raul, the mat on my star sapphire series 3 was most assuredly the original felt mat. Perhaps the dealer glued it to the platter before he sold it to me, but for whatever reason it was glued to the mat, and the surface was a felt like material. Just for your information, it was only later, when I acquired much better sounding turn tables, that I discovered how muffled and recessed was the sound coming from the star sapphire, meaning no disrespect to current SOTA turntables. Even with vacuum applied. The experience did not leave me believing that there was anything special about the mat on that turntable, except possibly that it was especially responsible for the unsatisfactory results. My next turn table was a Nottingham analog hyperspace. It ran rings around the star sapphire in every way. Even more so after I acquired a regulated power supply to supply AC to the Nottingham.
@best-groove I used a common copper cleaning product and an old toothbrush because the mat is not exactly smooth but has micro grooves like vinyls I insisted a lot and performed more passes but in the end the result was excellent.
After polishing, with a spray I gave a couple of light shredded transparent varnish.
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