Source of Fremer's "1 arc second" claim?
In the latest TAS April 2025, page 34, Fremer reviews some Technics TT, and repeats his claim that "listeners in blind tests could hear arc second speed shifts". where one revolution ~1.3 million arc seconds. Anybody have any idea where this is coming from?
Basic math will make you wonder whether any listener can hear a difference between chamber a' = 440.00000 Hz and 440.00004 Hz, rounding the 1.3M to an even 1M. When tuning my violins, I can hear 2–3 cent difference, where 800 cents = 1 octave = doubling of frequency. At 2 cents, that is over 1 full Herz difference. Even playing a cord with tones at 1 Hz difference will result in an oscillation at 1 Hz, i.e. peak to peak 1 second. For easy math, assume even a 0.00005 difference, which would lead to an oscillation with frequency of 20,000 seconds = 33 minutes. Good luck hearing that.
"Golden Ears" being able to hear ten times better than a normal human, why not. But 20K better? We are off by several orders of magnitude. Maybe I don't understand that he is talking about, but I consider it complete BS.
Maybe it has to do with consistency (accuracy vs. precision), but then the a different unit needs to be used that includes time in the denominator. But even then the math/physics don't add up.
If anybody can provide any insights, LMK. Thanks!
The alternative is rather unflattering for Mr. Fremer.
@antinn, thanks for clarifying. I misunderstood your comment "OMA of which MF owns". I also consider MF to be a boon to the vinyl revival, not a bad dude. @richardkrebs, you talk about "we" in regards to the OMA K3 turntable. So are you a consultant to OMA? For those not aware, Richard has developed upgrades for some of the Technics SP-10 series of tables. Or did I misunderstand that too? ;^) |
I designed the OMA K3 and K5 turntables. Jonathan then used an industrial designer for the aesthetics. My company provides the machined rotating parts and the K5 chassis. The cast iron chassis is made in the States. Both TTs are assembled by OMA. The "We" refers to a brilliant mechatronic engineer who helped to get the drive up and running and then a panel of enthusiastic friends who helped finesse the program. Cheers |
Please do not misunderstand my criticism. MF has been steadfast proponent of the vinyl playback and deserves the recognition and compliments he gets for that. But, on one more than occasion, he gets shall we say way ahead of himself regarding science & technology that he's not skilled in. That's all. Peace. |
@antinn, and peace to you. My mention of MF was not a disagreement with your comments, only an acknowledgment of his tireless vinyl promotion. I began listening to 45s, then LPs, long before digital, and I never gave up on them. But I don't have the credentials to question his technical statements.
|
@richardkrebs thanks for that explanation. So MF confuses the adjustment period unit with threshold of audibility. Would be funny if it weren't so sad. Thanks for the clarification re that source kernel. Interesting engineering issue going again at the accuracy vs. precision question and error correction. Using binning for data-noise reduction is certainly a tried and true approach. I run into it with microscope cameras. Would be interesting to know what speed variation was considered audible by the panel. Though it may have more to do with sensor noise being reduced by binning. That begs the question of whether the company became victim of its own over-engineering. Making the measurement periods so short that the measurement error goes through the roof. Fascinating trade-offs! Run into that with electron microscopy reducing probe current for better resolution, but that decreases signal and increases noise. @antinn @pryso Re trustworthiness of MF, when I notice some of his BS, I wonder how much other BS he is spouting that I don't spot. So I actively ignore him. To make things worse, I pointed out to the editor of TAS last year that this is nonsense. I am surprised that the editor is not reining in his authors. That is the function of an editor, have had a few of those appointments with some journals myself. That lack of editorial fortitude is a significant reason why I cancelled my TAS subscription again. So there is real harm done by spouting/publishing BS. I know, it is just a hobby, for fun and all that. But that sort of thing turns fun & entertainment into annoyance. Don't need that. |
