Sound correction in small room


Hello All,

I’m having a hell of a time with the sound in my newly constructed sound room and have spent the past couple of months learning about acoustical engineering (4+ months in theory being proactive, the past 2 weeks reactive trying to solve specific problems). I know there are a multitude of threads, videos, and websites about the subject across the innerwebs and I have looked at many, but they start to blur together so I am hoping to get some tips on my specific situation. But first, a couple of disclaimers: 1) 5 months ago I knew nothing about acoustical engineering... I now know just enough to know that I don’t know… 2) I blew waayyyy (I mean wayyyyyyyyy) past my intended budget many many moons ago.. So please keep these two things in mind when commenting/making recommendations. I’m trying to provide the necessary information without being too verbose so apologies for the length of the post…


The main characters:

Raven Nighthawk integrated tube amp (I believe 2x20w…)

Tekton Double Impacts (yes, I put 5ft. tall speakers in a room with a 6 ft. ceiling.. no, I can’t change that fact..)

Denon dvd player for the source (it’s been around a while and was probably lower midrange 8+/- years ago…)

Supporting cast (My room…):

Dimensions are 15’1” x 10’2’x 6’3” (176.5x122x76.75) yes, the ceiling is just over 6 ft. tall as I did the decoupled thing and there was also venting in the way

carpeted floor, standard walls and ceiling (textured and painted drywall), components are on 5’x2’ table, and there is a 58 inch plasma mounted on the wall. Single seat glider/rocking chair and footrest, 5’x5’ cube bookcase, minifridge, and lamp. I’m skipping over the sound proofing measures used when building the room as I don’t think they are relevant at the moment..


The villains:

1) I have a bass tone (produced by the bass guitar) that just floods the room if I have the speakers at the 2 ft. by 1ft. and toed inward placement. Ironically, moving the speakers back to only 2-4 inches from the front wall helps with this, however, I lose the lower/bottom end almost completely. From what I have read this is completely backasswards and makes no sense but here I am…

2) I am failing the “clap” test which leads to lack of clarity/intelligibility (I believe acoustical panels should address this… see below)

3) Not getting that “wow” factor that I know these speakers can produce (I had them hooked up to my main system for a few days whilst building the room and it was definitely there.. I can best describe it as lacking the immersive power that I was expecting… maybe described as loud and clear with all sounds well represented without blasting at the same time???)..


1st attempts at sound management/correction

1) Speaker placement (2ft. from front wall/1 ft. from side walls, 3in.from front wall/~1ft. from side walls, as well as a multitude of other positions)

2) Seating placement (38% from rear wall.. can’t do it from the front wall, too close..) as well as further back and forward.. Farther back seems to sound better at the moment

3) Equilateral triangle placement of seat and the speakers (ironically very close to 38% anyway…) making sure the sound shoots behind me, not directly at my ears

4) Diffusion: 5’x5’ cube bookcase with CDs and whatnot on rear wall (also a minifridge and lamp…) A few of the resources either directly stated, or at least implied diffusion can be effective this way…


Forthcoming sound management

1) I am attaining the materials to build 6 panels (2’x4’ with OC 703 already purchased) and will put 4 of them at the 1st and possibly 2nd reflection points with the other 2 as clouds at 1st reflection. The only door to the room may impact that 1st reflection point on one wall though…

2) Considering bass traps but want to see how the panels affect things first.. Regarding this, I love that deep low bass but I want it accurate and appropriate, not that singular hum sound

3) Also considering more panels (the only real space left would be the front and rear walls. Possibly more on the ceiling)


The actual questions

1) Does it seem like I am on the right track?

2) What am I missing/what should I be attending to that I am not?

3) If I end up doing bass traps, what material???

4) Any other suggestions (speaker placement, seating location, more panels, etc…)

Thank you in advance, these forums are a great resource!

la10slgr

Showing 5 responses by la10slgr

Hey everyone!  have seen your responses but havent had a chance to digest all of the information y'all have so graciously provided (daughters bday party this weekend) so will get back asap.. thank you so much for the recommendations and it definitely looks like there is a lot of information here...  

as a starting point, i am definitely looking for thoughts about my speaker placement and then progress to the other ideas.. i had considered long wall placement (they are on the short wall) but decided against that in the building phase for whatever reason was logical at the moment so now i am 99% locked into the current locale (outlet placement, connections, holes in the walls, etc..)

once again, truly, thank you!  I know no one in the audio world where i live and do not feel comfortable plugging the stores for their knowledge and then not hiring them so this kind of help is extremely helpful and appreciated!

Some add-ons I figured out this weekend or forgot to mention:

1) The problems occur at louder volume/listening levels, about 90-95db

2) Problems also occur with louder music (louder as in typical rock music vs. mellow or acoustic music)

These two points may be obvious to some…

3: I do have speaker isolation planned with bamboo boards (some would call them cutting boards from Ikea..) to put on the carpet and then the floor spikes..  Haven’t added them on yet as I am still scooting the speakers all over the place testing different positions…

 

Ok, so here’s where things stand:

1) Let’s get this out of the way 1st…  I tried to not so discreetly allude to the fact that this room is already wayyy over budget…  So far over budget that had I known what the room itself was going to actually cost I would have had to at minimum drastically alter my component purchases (which in hindsight could have been done differently but what’s done is done…) or forego the project altogether…  If there is a comma in the price (e.g., $1,000+…) it is not gonna happen.  As it stands, anything that costs a couple of hundred bucks brings out a heavy sigh…  Not complaining, just stating the facts as they are….

2) GIk agreed that my speakers close to the front wall is an appropriate placement.  I was so focused on making sure I was giving accurate information I forgot to dive in to the logistics of why this works but regardless, he agreed when I said it sounded the best so far…

3) Need to get those panels constructed and hung

3a) still investigating best placement for the panels.  It seems the 1st and 2nd reflection points are the main idea here but honestly, they both may be covered by a single panel.  Ironically, my wife doesn’t have a small mirror in the house so have to go find one.  Should this be correct, this opens up the option of placing some panels either behind the speakers on the front wall or on the back wall (keeping in mind I am talking about panels, not bass traps)

4) Seems to be a pretty common consensus that bass traps need to happen so I will get on this. 

4a) spoke with GIK and got recommendations (very helpful by the way, just as many have mentioned) basically it comes down to me being on the right track with the panels and adding bass traps in all 4 corners of the room.  The total is approximately $700 but I can’t tell exactly as the website and my computer are not playing nice with each other as I can’t add the traps to my cart…

4b) I need to investigate the DIY route for building bass traps and am still looking for recommendations for material so I can compare prices with GIK.  It seems the OC 703 could be a component but either need to use it in combination with something different (alternating 703 and 703 FRK) or use something different altogether.  If I am reading correctly, it seems something with FRK needs to be involved so the bass trap doesn’t suck the life out of all the mid and high frequencies… Thoughts?

4c) triangular pattern that stacks up on top of each other (pancake style) vs. panels that are simply placed in the corner.  It seems the triangle option has more mass and therefore should absorb lower frequencies and do a better job overall when compared to panels placed in the corner.  Am I interpreting correctly?  Cost/benefit?

4d) as I stated earlier, I don’t want to be that guy that plugs a business for information and then goes somewhere else..  I need to do the aforementioned price comparison and if it is comparable, or at least somewhat in the ballpark of reasonable, I will use GIK but if there is a big difference then I gotta consider the alternatives..

5) components on the table – I can see how the table might be a reflector o’ sound and I do have a small rack style stand (3 shelves, maybe 2.5’x2.5’x2.5’) that I can easily swap in.  Thoughts?

6) Did some research on what was mentioned.  My interpretation:  Room nodes/modes = 2 “beams” of the same frequency meet and either create a peak (in phase) which amplifies the frequency or null (out of phase) which negates the frequency and cancels it out.. there’s a lot of math after this…  At this level, it makes sense. Am I correct in my interpretation?

7) @auxinput, thanks for the graph/chart.  I honestly can’t say that it all makes sense to me but from what I can decipher (as demonstrated in point #5 directly above) it seems the bass traps and panels will be a big part of the solution, if not the solution.. is this an accurate interpretation?

 

Again, my deepest gratitude for the input..  It seems like I am making some headway, at least in theory at this point..  By all means, I am still open to input so feel free to chime in (but please make sure you read point #1, the second one, above)

Alright, i did the cardas placement which had the speakers 33.67 (to center) from side walls and 54.53 (to front of speaker) from what i call the front wall...  it was doable but admittedly pretty much out in front of the tv and in the middle of the room, 1/3 anyhow... in my current state it didnt improve sound much, if at all, so gonna have to wait til some panels get built (and bass traps but still working on those logistics) and test again...
Auxinput, totally missed your last two posts... will review and may have some questions

Been a while but figured I may as well finish this up...  Here's what I ended up doing:

1) 4 bass traps - 6' tall and essentially floor to ceiling (of course the air vents are right where these would go so had to leave some clearance) placed in each corner of the room.  They are 4 inches thick and are made of 2" thick OC703 and 2" OC703 FRK

2) 6 panels -  Each is 2'x4' and I placed 4 on the walls (1st reflection point, and to the side of listening position) and 2 on the ceiling slightly forward and/or above the listening position.  These are 2" thick and made of OC 703

Results:  Sound is now under control (huzzah!!!) as that bass tone that was overpowering the room is leveled out and I can pass the "clap test" with no echo when the listening chair is placed under the cloud panels.  However, if I move the seat closer to the rear wall I can still get an echo.. 

I continue to play with seating position and speaker placement and am constantly amazed at how an inch here and there can alter the sound so much.  If I move forward I get the soundstage but lose the bass and vice-versa when I move the seat back towards the wall.. I tried the Cardas placement for a rectangular room and for my situation it was just ridiculous as the speakers were essentially in front of the tv and it didn't sound so great either...  Also tried the equilateral triangle method and that met similar results...  So I turned to my own ear and trial/error... Lots of trial and error....

Overall, I give the effectiveness of the room treatment, and the sound presentation, a 9/10 and in some aspects a 10/10 but I can't seem to get that perfect sweet spot where I keep the bass and the soundstage and maintain it from one style of music to the next (said differently: I can attain 10/10 but then I put in a different type of music and that particular set up is no longer ideal so find myself scoochinig things around again...)  I'll keep tinkering with it but am happy that the problems are 90% taken care of and that last 10% is something that I don't mind playing with...

Thanks for all the help!!!  I  LITERALLY could not have done it without all the helpful suggestions and guidance.