Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

@markwd - thank you for your gracious reply and question. There is actually nothing I criticise regarding the measurements done at asr. It is how those electrical measurements are expressed and used to conflate belief with truth that I object to.

Science has always been about the balance between empiricism and rationalism. In medicine, bloodletting was an accepted practice of belief in good health against all empirical evidence, and carried on unabated for two thousand years, until it was rationally uncovered and proven to be otherwise in the 18th century when the last indoctrinated societies finally found rational evidence to collate the empirical.

This is the issue with asr, and really, amir himself, who often hides behind the emblem of what he has made of asr - asr is still all his and about him, however much he wishes to distance himself from the rational doctrines of belief he has boxed himself into. He will claim he still relies on empiricism, which cannot be trusted, because of the inconsistency with which he claims listening is more vital than measurements, and when he then laughs off all claims to listening. He cannot even trust his own hearing, in multiple posts where he says he heard a difference, and then ceased to hear a difference after a while. And his hearing difference always happens after a measurement, never independently of. He openly admits he cannot trust his own hearing, despite all the tests he has taken, but then goes on to say no one else can, when it is a known fact there is a huge of listening ability in human beings. He makes you believe you cannot trust your hearing, only because he cannot trust his, appealing to your having had similar experiences, when most of us haven’t developed our listening skills to hear the difference. This is the basis of indoctrination.

True scientists work by way of the dialogue empiricism has with rationalism, never just one or the other. Technicians work only one way, using predetermined rationalism for process and arrive at conclusions. And they are not wrong! They are merely there to help us with what is known, not what needs to be discovered. 

The problem is that amir positions himself as a scientist, when he’s really a technician.

Ok, that then leaves the empiricism of listening to question. How does one know that what one is hearing is actual, or mere confirmation bias, independently of measurements?

For this, we need to understand what high fidelity actually means. Defined, high fidelity does not refer to the fidelity of the signal, it never has! You can study this or look it up - high fidelity refers to the reproduction by electrical equipment of very high quality sound that is as similar as possible to the original sound.

Based on this, you can see how ludicrous it is to suggest that equipment measured with the best signal integrity equates to that of high fidelity - this is the very reason why so many audiophiles complain about many good measuring equipment sounding bad; measurements have never been the arbiter of fidelity, our ears are.

This is not to say that it is then reduced to a shallow matter of preference, as we all have a very very powerful point of reference - while we each hear differently, the source from which the original sound was emitted is shared by us all, be it a live bird, angry dog, Guarneri violins in general, or the way an old Steinway sounds in a particularly reverberant room. A correct understanding of high fidelity takes a whole lot more effort from each audiophile than merely referencing readouts and graphs from a technician’s monitor - the foundations of high fidelity itself are built on the development and honing of one’s listening abilities, to hear all the nuance and subtlety of the time domain that characterises the realism found in original sound - it is the watchful eye we each have to place on ourselves to detect bias, in placing realism and the truth of one’s perceptions over how much or how little we want to spend on our hobby. No one said it would be cheap, expensive, or easy….and, definitely no where as simple as taking a reading off a monitor.

 

Markwd, this is why audiophiles do not only rely on measurements, and in fact cannot merely rely on measurements - signal measurements do not and have never been the most vital part of high fidelity.

 

There are preferences, mind you, but one thing is clear - there is very little argument when a system of true high fidelity is heard. And I do mean in a room or space where the set up has been well judged and tuned to bring out the very best from that system, measurements be damned.

Don’t be misled into thinking, like many audiophiles do, when hearing the simply awful sound of a multi million dollar system in an audio show or at a showroom, that hi-end hifi is all a scam. I have found very few to have been set up well. Most importantly, I always reserve judgement until I can have whatever piece of equipment put into my own system, in the familiarity of my own listening and tuned space, and specifically located and adjusted speakers. If high fidelity is the true objective, there is ultimately only one metric of its final gauge - developed listening ability in the context of an entire system set into the specific context of its listening space.
 

I hope this has made sense to you.

 

In friendship - kevin

Wow, such revelatory hostility! Dealers circling the boutique wagons in glamping configurations and boasting that their listening punditry is better than this stale, shrill modern stuff.

But we can do a bit of the kind of brainstorming that goes on in disruptive/dintermediating business plans. The boutique/high end audio equipment makers should produce mid-fi but excellent measuring components that become leads to the high-end components. They can reduce costs the standard way with manufacturing in Asia, use well-engineered chip amps, etc. It doesn't matter that those mid-market offerings are competing with many others. As long as they perform (measure) well enough they will get sales traction.

But, more to the point, they become brand ambassadors for the dealers and the higher-margin components. So what if they are mostly the same just with 60 pounds of heatsinks to allow for an additional 200 WPC into 8 Ohms. The high-end buyer may be trading up from the middle tier.

Brands that do this successfully include KEF (LSX -> Meta Blades), Chord even, Revel, etc. Now that sounds like a business model that can embrace the reality (and future impact) of ASR's measurements dashboards. The boutique shops just need better market planning and implementation rather than just being engineering (and measurement and, yes, listening) driven.

>high fidelity does not refer to the fidelity of the signal, it never has!<
 

OMG! What incredible bullshit.

@kevn 

Right, I have no deep objection to most of that. I was curious what aspects of electromagnetism do you think are in fact contributing meaningfully to the high fidelity reproduction of music that are not contained in those measurements? You seem to have dropped that?

The rest of your rather long description is arguable but mostly not objectionable. Your characterization of how science works vs. Amir vs. technicians, for instance, appears to continue your general dislike of the presence of "science" in ASR.

There clearly are aspects of science in there up to and including his scientific survey paper on the performance of audio components. The measurements are part of the survey and the hypothesis is that there are not strong correlations between cost and measured performance. Now, you can argue that other sciences work in different ways than that but it follows the description that I previously provided. No scientist I know would object; they just do their science. But are you worried that the imprimatur might give new audio equipment "seekers" some kind of false belief that all they need is this particular kind of ASR science? I'm not too worried!

Your final paragraphs focus on the notion that listening in a specific space and matching components is in addition to the capabilities of the components. Of course! There are extensive and lively discussions on the science of room modes, the role of DSP, damping, integration, impedance matching, and many other topics at ASR. The measurements of the individual components and the listening by Amir to confirm aspects of those is not changed by the additional discussions or how any given audiophile will need to find the proper fit of the components to create their optimal experience.

I personally think much of it is overwrought and it is oldie audiophile snobbery that trends towards the negative stereotypes that are claimed (minions, brainwashed, etc.) for ASR folks in a reverse-golden-rule manner, but I hold out a kind of stochastic hope that given enough discussion and enough resources, searchers will begin to find and understand enough that some of the mythologizing that has been wielded for commercial gain will be abraded a bit.

Like I note, I'm curious how internet/social media change our engagement with exactly these kinds of topics that were once knowledge constrained by dealers, small-circulation magazines, audio shows, etc. I've never been to or subscribed to any of that stuff but it once was a contained marketing ecosystem that built stories as much as performant products. Times change!

I am taking a break from this discussion in part due to inspiration from the latest post from kevn. This member communicates properly and with respect.