Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

Don't get me started on ASR...

Just as one example of their flawed way of evaluating gear:

They reviewed one GR Research's budget stand mount speakers, but all they did was measure it and listen to one speaker.

Oh you mean this "giant" disaster of a speaker?  

That little 4 inch surplus woofer Danny is using produced the most horrible sound possible.  Naturally due to its extremely small size and lack of excursion.  To call that a hi-fi speaker would be a huge stretch.  To call it Little Giant Killer is science fiction.

As to mono listening you better start doing that as that is the most sensitive type of speaker testing you can do.  I have a video on that:

 

As if things like: imaging, soundstage, ambience retrieval don't exist. 

If a speaker is colored, or distorts like hell, I wouldn't care about those factors.  That aside, much of what you talk about is in the content and has little to do with the speaker itself.  Pan an instrument to the left.  Even the crappiest speaker will demonstrate that.  Spatial effects are also quite obvious in mono listening.

If in all of those 40 years, you had spent just one day doing a listening test blind, you would have been so much better off from that moment on. But no, you allowed your eyes and brain to interfere. And with it, arrived at the wrong conclusion, leading to wasting money left and right on things like that Denafrips DAC.

 

 

When i bought my Tannoy dual concentric speakers, a legendary speakers, i was convinced that they were among the best and after 40 years when i sell them a higher price than the price paid i know that they were reputed good for one reason : they were good...

I know it all along with my eyes and with my brain which i allow to interfere as you said, but why did i never entered in complete satisfaction ?

Because i did not know about acoustics...

What you said about these two dac based on electrical measures of their specs characteristics is right... What you did conclude is wrong ...

A dac performance cannot be evaluated out of any system , in no room , for no ears...

The two dac must be compared in the same dedicated acoustic room with a specific system for specific ears ( ideally measured inner ears and HTRF ) the specs of the dac cannot tell the tale by itself alone blind test or not ...

I let my eyes and brain influenced me when i bought another pair of speakers but at the end they did not please me till i completely modified them ...

Your stance about ears and brain is pop psychology used ideologically to reduce any sound quality to a set of electrical measurements...( simple blind tests are enough anyway and i used them creating my room )

The measures that matter the most are acoustics parameters and psychoacoustics parameters...

Seeing the gear and reading the reviews will not improve the sound ... Acoustics measures and parameters improvements will do ... The specs of any piece of gear dont tell ALL the story at best it can be used to eliminate some purchasing choices and even this minimal use of specs will not always work...

By the way thanks for you article about the Fosi audio sk1 preamplifier i bought it after reading your review and never regret it ... i used it for my secondary headphone ...😊

I appreciate your work indeed but not your ideology...

I am pretty sure you think A.I. will replace human for the better ... i do not think so ... Enough teasings, i wanted to spell my opinion ... 😎

 

I think what most audiophiles don’t understand is that audio measurements are easy and not very technical compared to many other measurements in science. Audio is slow and the frequencies are long the mechanics are simple. Testing the frequency range of a component its timing or dynamic range or fidelity is really 1st grade comparatively and can be done exceptionally accurately. If the uber expensive cables made a difference to the signal it would be easily measured. There is no magic or secret knowledge you hear only the signal of the output if the signal changes you can easily measure it. ASR is right about this. ASR tested my Genelec speakers nearly the highest rating ever and those speakers "The Ones" are taking over recording studios everywhere, that is no coincidence.

IF your baseline is whatever you like coming out of a DAW… why overinvest in Genelex ?…. just think thru that BEFORE you react….

BTW… i ran with an engineering development / build  / Test  / Launch / operate on orbit crowd w bandwidth up to light…. don’t oversell the ease of FULLY understanding and measuring the lowly analog…

One starting point for all gear should be proper engineering. If it is badly engineered, then good sound is only an accident. Yes, we have seen the reviews in S'phile of subjective raves followed by Atkinson's baffled measurements.

ASR is a starting point for you to begin listening: I use it to establish a shortlist of gear worth auditioning. Especially since some mfg. tailor their gear to a 'house sound'.

I might add that, since COVID, I find it increasingly worrisome to sit in a confined space with a bunch of strangers and am not eager to go to shows and dealerships, hence increasing reliance on ASR and a VERY small number of reviewers whose prejudices reinforce mine.