Unsound, I've heard some bad sound from Apogees as well. Some of the early models had voicing problems, and also differed within production runs. You can see this in the reviews and the response measurements. Overall performance and consistency improved radically over the years.
In two channel reproduction of recordings made in large venues, it's long been known that a downtilt of 4-6 dB actually sounds better than flat. For small ensembles, flat is better. This is a shortcoming of two channel recordings, not the speakers -- basically, forward-facing cardioid microphones don't pick up enough ambiance, which, in a large hall, is attenuated in highs, and close miking is even worse. Some speakers take the flat approach, some the downtilt approach. I don't think one or the other is right.
One problem Apogees do have is a hollowed-out bass response, with a peak at the very low primary resonance. Essentially, they traded away flatness for superior bass extension.
Still, they made some superb speakers. I think one of the main reasons they aren't more popular now is that despite Graz's life-saving support, the woofers are very costly to refurbish. I've seen long-time Apogee lovers say that they're no longer an economical proposition for that reason. This may explain relatively high selling prices -- if you'd spent a lot to repair yours, you'd naturally want to recoup some of it. And of course, the larger planars will always appeal to a relatively few people, e.g., those with dedicated sound rooms or dirt on their wives. The Tympanis suffer from this problem as well, which I think is why they can be purchased for prices that are insanely low compared to more reasonably-sized speakers of comparable quality. |
One huge difference is that Maggies are still made, and supported by the company. They'll refurbish almost all of their speakers, even custom-build drivers for discontinued models if you need one, as I discovered when Fedex did a job on my Tympanis. You can replace a treble ribbon for a fraction of the cost of a Graz ribbon -- not criticizing Graz here, but he's a relatively small volume operation. If your bass drivers are delaminating and you have a weekend, you can fix them yourself with Magnepan's kit for $40, where a new Apogee bass driver would cost you thousands. It all makes Maggies a much more practical option.
I do wish I could get my hands on a couple of Apogee midrange ribbon drivers, though, and put them in my Tympanis. :-) This is one of the few areas I think in which an Apogee will beat a Tympani, but it's a crucial one, since the midrange is the soul of the music. There are some DIY midrange ribbon projects on DIY audio, but it looks like they'd take a summer.
I think it's also true that there are a lot more Maggies out there, and both the new and used prices offer inimitable bang for the buck. Apogees were more expensive to make and repair, which is apparently the main reason the company went out of business. |
I sued to think that, too, but apparently it wasn't the case. It seems they went out because they were too expensive to make and repair (they had a large number of ribbon failures). The Grand in particular, while by all accounts one of the best speakers ever made, was too expensive to make. The company that bought them looked at what they owed and at the state of the high end audio market, and decided to close them down.
If you do a search you can find some accounts of what happened. |
Chadeffect,
I had Tympani 1-D's for many years, and used to play them at fuse-blowing levels with a wide range of material -- classical, rock, movies. I never heard them rattle on a bass drum. The only time the 1-D's woofers ever got into trouble was in the cannon shots on the Telarc 1812.
The Tympani IV's and IVa's play even louder and deeper. Satie, over on the Audio Asylum measures >120 dB SPL's on his modified Tympani IV's (midrange replaced by BG Neo-8's). He uses a 2500 watt pro amp on the woofers to get those levels. As I recall, Satie does give the biggest Apogees a slight edge in dynamics over the Tympanis,, but complains that the Apogee midrange ribbon can become unstable and shrill at high SPL's.
In any case, in my experience, the Tympani bass isn't at all like the single panel bass in this regard, which is why I have a pair of IVa's now. To me, the Tympani woofers have the ideal combination of near-dynamic SPL's and extension and planar naturalism. Now, if only I could score a pair of Apogee midrange ribbons to put in them. :-) |
Hi Chadeffect,
According to the manual for my IVa's, they "can exceed 110 dB RMS at the listeners seat in a 16' x 25' room with an amplifier rated at 200 watts at 8 ohms."
Someone on the Audio Asylum measured some Tympani woofers and I think he said they started to compress at 105 dB or so. I don't remember the exact figure, but it was over 100 dB. This is in the ballpark of a dynamic woofer, which is one of the reasons I like the Tympanis so much -- the combine, for me, planar clarity with near dynamic slam and extension. The dynamic range can be increased even more if you cross a dynamic sub over at 40 Hz, relieving the Tympanis of some bottom duty.
OK, so with my somewhat smaller 1-D's, my woofers didn't bottom or rattle at fuse blowing levels, which was with the 2-1/2 amp fuses. That would be over 25 watts RMS = more than 250-2500 watts on the peaks (since music has a 10-20 dB peak/average ratio), and we're only talking about the tweeters. As I think I said, the only time the woofers ever bottomed or sounded unhappy was on the Telarc 1812.
That SPL capability is why Satie went with the Tympanis -- there was a long discussion about 120 dB+ SPL levels from planars on the Audio Asylum. He put a 2500 watt pro amp on the IV's woofer panels (a bit less efficient than the IVa's) to get that kind of output. No problem, the woofers aren't even fused because they have so much thermal radiating area. You'll hit the magnets before you'll risk melting them.
At the same time, in my experience, while the Tympanis will do peaks in the 118 db @ 1 meter + range that's the bare minimum for plausible if not completely accurate reproduction of classical music (and too low for jazz), neither the Tympanis nor most audiophile dynamics can put out the uncompressed levels at the listening seat tht you need for reproduction of peaks at natural levels.
Big studio monitors can do this and it's one of the few areas in which I found the sound in the studio superior to home reproduction. Horns can as well. So I know exactly what you're saying about dynamic freedom. And I agree that almost no planar will do it, and almost no consumer dynamic. (I say "almost" because the Wisdom planars will apparently put out that kind of SPL and more, at IIRC $60,000 per side. They use some very interesting technology, including silver foam to remove heat from the planar tweeter.)
Great suggestion about Graz, BTW, thanks. |
Hi Chadeffect,
I think I know what you mean about the diffuse sound. I've always wondered if that wasn't due to comb filtering from the out-of-phase backwave. This is something that doesn't occur in life -- you do get comb filtering from reflections but the backwave is usually in phase. I've sometimes wondered idly whether this didn't have something to do with their reproduction of space as well.
There are lots of other differences, though, so I'm not really sure.
A lot of people use diffusion behind the speakers, at the first reflection points. I just got some duffusers from GIK today, so I'll be trying that myself some time in the next few weeks. I have a troublesome fireplace mantle that I'm trying to tame.
The LS-4 was what I had in mind. Wisdom also makes a smaller version called the LS-3. They're made up out of modules, with a central quasi-ribbon tweeter and bass panels on either side. These go down to 80 Hz and then they use separate shallow subs below that. There are some pictures of the modules in a show report on the Stereophile site. Basically, they're architectural speakers that are designed to mount in the wall. That means they have enclosures with absorptive material, like large, shallow dynamics. I haven't heard them either, but those who have speak highly of them.
I imagine that the cost of the Wisdoms reflects several factors. Enclosures are the most expensive thing in a speaker, so that alone would make them more expensive than the typical planar. Then they use neodynium magnets -- these are super efficient -- and neodynium has gotten very costly, it would add thousands to the selling price of the speaker. They also use that esoteric spun silver technology to bleed heat from the tweeter -- there's an interesting demo/rundown somewhere on You Tube if you can find it. Finally, I think these are a pricey ultra-high-end product that's made in small quantities. Maggies benefit from the economies of mass production and are designed to be affordable -- they consider themselves a value manufacturer and would rather sell a lot of moderately-priced speakers than a few highly-priced ones.
The people behind Wisdom are Boehlender and Graebner, the guys who started BG, which makes the Neo-8's that Satie used to mod his Tympanis, and also the RD- series drivers that are used in the big Genesis, etc. |
