Small form factor, budget DACs?
I would add the Scott Nixon, Audio Note and Audio Sector DACS to the list. You owe it to yourself to experience NON OS done right. You may never look at oversampling DACs again. I haven't experienced anything up to several thousand I would trade my DAC for. I know I would have to spend quite a bit more to hear a clear upgrade..so I haven't bothered. In most cases, I would be just pissing in the wind.LOL Good Luck |
FWIW, I've communicated with an owner of the Bel Canto 2.0. He also owns the 47 Labs 4715 Shigaraki.This NON OS DAC uses the same Dac chip found in the Audio Sector, Scott Nixon, Audio Mirror, Lite Audio and I would imagine a couple of other DACs. He prefers the NON OS over the BC 2.0 for its musical presentation. The BC 2.0 sounds sharper and more precise from his description but loses out in the naturalness of the music,when compared to the NON OS. I think Brooks had it right. The NON OS are built for music lovers more than the HiFi crowd.There's no real way to explain it..you just have to hear it for yourself. If I had to describe it in words. I would say the difference would be like comparing tubes to solid state. |
I agree battery power has its strengths. I also feel a well implemented power supply that runs off the mains can offer up serious competition. In some cases surpassing battery power in the dynamic areas. The condition of the mains from the start is also a factor I would think. Too bad I don't have an extra Audio Sector Dac laying around. I would take you up on the challenge Flye and have one DAC battery modded. This way I could compare it to the stock unit. Don't let the size fool you. The digital / analog sections power inputs and grounds are separated on this unit. It is extremely quiet and dynamic all by itself.You're going to have to dig deep to out do this little guy in its present form.;-) I think Peter Daniels did an awesome job of engineering this DAC from scratch. Cheers |
Undertow, I noticed the same thing when I changed from the basic 18 gauge PC over to a Belden 14 gauge PC on my DAC. I also heard an improvement when I plugged the unit directly in the wall verses into a power conditioner. I'm not a huge believer in the PC thing..but I did hear a difference for the better going with the 14 gauge Belden verses stock PC. A friend and I also tested the Belden against a TICE power cord which was something like 8 Gauge. Again the Belden was the better of the two PCs to our ears. The key is a good PC..not necessarily an expensive one though. |
Bombaywalla, Thanks for the little review...good stuff! Nice to hear the SN DAC did well against the heavy hitting Wadia. It's funny what sorts of things run through your mind when comparing units of such wide price differences. You kind of hope the expensive unit comes out on top. Especially if you paid for it with your cash.LOL $150 DAC against a $9000 unit ... yeap diminishing returns is a mother. I wish I lived closer I would love to bring my DAC over for a comparison. If nothing else it would be fun. Glad you can put your mind to ease a little. All the best, |
Bombaywalla, I also did some thinking about your comparison of the SN DAC and the Wadia. I'm thinking that some of the differences you were hearing had a lot to do with the output impedance of the Wadia (51 ohms) verses the SN DAC ( guessing maybe 3000 ohms). The input of your Preamp is 50K ohms I think? The Wadia should sound more dynamic and linear..I'm guessing. The differences you described between the units. I also noticed when using or not using a buffer between my DAC and integrated. The buffer which I believe your player has built in, gives more presence and makes the musical lines easier to follow. This is why in IMHO..unless you have a cd player or DAC with analog outputs of the Wadia's caliber or a Preamp with a high input impedance ..say 100K ohms. A buffer is mandatory to get the most out of the DAC or CD players analog outputs. I also believe this is one of the reasons many love PC audio. Some of the sound cards used have an output impedance of 50 Ohms. |
Yes Bombaywalla the 10x factor works OK. I'm not sure this is written in stone though. After listening to the differences of the average CD player or DAC output impedance (which is around 3000 ohms)verses using a separate buffer(100k ohm input and 16 ohms output at the moment) to alleviate the load of the interconnect and the amplifier. There is more dynamics,deeper tighter bass and the images are more defined. It's almost like some one took the governor off and let the engine run without it being held back. This is using a 25K passive volume control in the loop.I should have mentioned passive volume controls. You can hear the differences very easily. I'm not as technically oriented as you are my friend. In layman terms, it's like using a CD player that is designed to run directly into an amplifier. Then running it through a linestage/buffer before the amplifier. Most would prefer the linestage/buffer to just the straight connection. Even though there's an additional component in the loop..it sure sounds better with that buffer in between. One means to measure output impedance of a CD player, with close results, is to have a test CD with a 1Khz signal, play it and measure the open unloaded, output signal on a good AC voltmeter. Then add a variable resistance across it, adjust it until the value is half of the open measurement, remove this resistance and measure its resistance with a standard ohmmeter. That value should be very close to the source impedance, at least at 1Khz. I've tried the BVaudio SR10 buffer unit in the past.This was done using analog outputs not as high grade as your Wadia. The difference was noticeable. When I moved to a more substantial buffer. The difference was unbelievable! Maybe this website can explain it better than I can BVaudio . By the way my TDA1543 based DAC doesn't use Op amps at all. |
Bombaywalla, all your theories and hypothesis are great.But you really need to hear it to understand where I'm coming from. The Audio Sector DAC has sufficient drive. Probably more than many players. I've never heard a player or DAC make a garbage recording sound good. It is what it is. I can assure you jitter performance is excellent with this combo. I do use a Superclock 3 in the transport. There maybe nothing magical about the BVaudio SR10 output impedance but it's better than most players on the market o/p. The output impedance and voltage of the analog outputs do attenuate the signal in interconnects if not sufficient correct? Maybe we're talking about two different things here. I'm talking about the addition of a buffer for people using passives or changing the preamp to one with a higher input impedance. Also the impedance does matter when driving long interconnects or passives. I would rather have more drive than not enough in any case. I wish you were closer ..I could quickly prove your hypothesis wrong. Anyone that has tried this knows what I'm talking about. You must ask yourself. Why use a preamp between your Wadia and amplifier? Besides the need for other inputs. After all you are double buffering already. What do you gain when using the preamp/buffer than not using it between the Wadia? I suspect you use the preamp because it sounds better to you than running the CD player direct to the amplifier...correct. So because you do this the Wadia must not have sufficient drive...correct? Ok I was being sarcastic with that one. :-) What I'm doing is no different than you using the CAT preamp in the loop. Now do you understand? There's a reason why APL,RAM and other modders concentrate so much on the output stage of their players. Which includes doing away with the negative feedback opamps in some cases. I noticed most of them use single ended designs with no negative feedback and powerful output transformers in their top players. I added the same thing ..just in a different chassis.LOL I can imagine handling interconnect interactions is a walk in the park for such players. Never heard the APL..but just from what's used, the output impedance(should be quite low using a tube and output transformers) and high voltage should make one powerful sounding player! There's no denying it, the presence of power in the right place makes one hell of a difference in sound! Oh yeah..the piper is one happy camper! ;-) |
Fair enough my friend..at least we agree on something.LOL I do understand what your saying. Maybe this is the problem you hear in your DAC or transport..I really don't know. Honestly I've never cared for the stock Sony 7700 players analog outputs, they are quite the ear bleeders in my book. I never got a chance to try it as a transport..sold it off in a hurry.LOL Wow your DAC really kicks the gain up. I can adjust the gain on my Single Power MPX3 Slam. This is what I use as a buffer not the BvAudio unit. It does have gain where the BVaudio does not. 600 volts of clean quiet power in reserve really takes the sound up a few notches! ATB, |
