Single Driver Horn vs Multi driver efficient spker
Gregm thanks for wetting my appetite. I had a good feeling about these speakers. Even though I've never heard them..they seem like an all around terrific design. A little bit of everything rolled into one speaker. That amplifier/ crossover does look complicated.Oh ummm I admit I'm a little lazy also when it comes to putting this stuff together. I think I would just pay someone to do it for me than deal with the headache myself.:-) |
If it's not working for you Mike.Going back to a high efficient multi driver speaker may be best. You will most likely need to move up from the SET. To get dynamics and punch from multi way bass reflex speakers..you need power. Not a tremendous amount but more than 5 wpc for most. I use single drivers... mine aren't super efficient and can't be run with a SET. So I need atleast 30 wpc of good power to wake them up. There's plenty of multi driver speakers that couldn't begin to touch the dynamics and clean bass they belt out. I had to give up high efficiency to get it though. The Back Loaded Horns I've heard aren't bass monsters.Not in a sense of air hitting you in the face..if you know what I mean. It would take a HUGE horn speaker to give you what you want.And it still wouldn't be as dynamic as a multi way speaker. The BLHs have a different kind of bass ..very fast and controled.Upright bass and cellos are easy to follow without the drawn out bloat some direct radiating speakers produce. It all boils down to your musical taste and what you want out of a speaker. None are perfect so you must find what fits you best. That's just the nature of the hobby. It can be fun and frustrating all at the same time.:-) Good luck |
I agree Arkprof the Abbys are terrific speakers and one of my favorites. Basically you have a 3 way system which I imagine sounds terrific. Never heard the Abbys with the extra tweeter. I did listen too them with a ASL set(can't remeber the model at the moment). I believe it was 2 or 3 wpc. I also listened to them with some 60 watt monoblock tube amplifier made by Grommes. The Abbys sounded much better with those 60 wpc monos....much fuller and more open IMHO. There was also a Almarro in the same room albeit similar to yours unfortunely I didn't get a chance to hear it. I'm learning the key to getting good sound from single drivers isn't just the wattage. The dampening factor plays a large part in what you hear with them. That's probably why most users pair them with tube amplifiers. The dampening factor is lower on average than SS amplifiers. Over dampening a single driver will cause them to sound rolled off, dry and thin.Op amp Chip amplifiers are also great with the single drivers IMHO. More in some cases isn't always better.When you find that right mix of wattage and dampening factor you know it.The speakers just come alive! Good listening! |
Yeah...the Fab Audio Model 1 took a serious beating in that 6moons review.LOL Probably one of the worst beatings I've seen by them. The Stonehenge looks similar to the Hammer Dynamics S-12. The biggest difference is the Hammer is $650.00 as a kit with a 12 inch woofer and the Stonehenge $2700.00 with a 10 inch woofer.The Stonhenge is ported in the rear .While the Hammer is ported from the front. Other than that quite similar in certain aspects. |
Great write up Darkmoebius ! You should be working for 6moons! LOL You've pretty much said it all...I feel the same way about the single drivers. I haven't heard a multi way I would trade for mine either. Funny you mention the pressurization of the room. I thought it wasn't possible with the single drivers. I was most definitely wrong! As mentioned above efficiency ,a little upper frequency energy and high output had to be traded to get it.For me it was worth it. The speakers still play cleanly in my room at 100 dB with peaks around 106 db. I never listen at these levels though. I'm normally around 75 or 80 dB. Also the shout some speak of is non-existant in them.The speakers also use correction circuits which contains a zobel network.This keeps the rising impedance/high frequencies at bay found in most single drivers. While in turn taming beaming and shout. The speakers frequency response is the flattest I've heard in my home. I'm getting near fullrange sound from maybe 16 or 17 khz down to usable bass in the mid 20 Hz range. 30 hz response is basically flat in my room.It's no lower in dB than a 50 Hz tone burst. There's also no 50 hz hump that's found in ported bass reflex speakers. I was listening to some Jacques Loussier Trio "Gnossiennes No.5" yesterday. This is a dynamic track with kick drums,cymbals,upright bass. The Transmission line loaded Fostex F200a pressurized my room enough to make the room shutter. Not in a drawn out way. Very well controlled with the kind of bass you feel in your chest( Room size will dictate results). A kick drum sounds like a kick drum and also feels like one.I have a friend who has two drum sets in his house. So I know what percussions should sound like. I had my son in law over to watch a action movie a while back. I used the FTAs as the mains. Half way through the movie he ask me" What size woofers are used in the powered subs built in the bottom of those speakers ?". There are no powered subs I replied, it's only a single driver. He looked at me with this extreme surprised look on his face. Then he got up and walked over to check them out. He could'nt believe what he was hearing.The rest of the movie he just marveled at what they did and shook his head.LOL I have been communicating with another owner of these speakers. The FTAs ousted a pair of $5000 multi way Gershman Acoustics AvantGardes in his system! Yeah their that good..when setup properly and given proper components and break in time. |
Kloss I have followed your threads for sometime now. You have to be one of the for most experts in this type of speaker.Especially the F200A driver. Thanks for helping to keep them around! I took a close look at this driver out side of the cabinet. I haven't seen a better built driver personally. Man these drivers are MONSTERS!From all the fullrange or almost fullrange drivers I researched. The F200a seems to be the best bargain in high end, when it comes to a true fullrange single driver. You mention the Raven r1 ribbon tweeter. What value capacitor would I use as a filter if I decide to try them? To bad I'm not closer, I would love too hear those monster horns! It's a shame more haven't discovered these drivers and how good they really are. Some get caught up in the glam and glitz ..That seems to be the only thing about this hobby I don't care for.Most spend too much time looking for a particular name than just listening to different products..whether well known or not. Many miss the boat looking for the big name in lights. |
Darkmoebius you are correct, I use the FTA 2000s. I agree no single driver is perfect.For that matter neither is any other speaker type out there. There will always be a trade off some where. When I think of the sound of the Sigma and F-Series as flavors. The Sigma is like vanilla and the F-Series alnico is like chocolate. The Sigma is more highlighted in the midrange while the F-series a little darker and organic. I like how the Sigma layers the music also.You have the advantage of using very low wattage amplifiers. I do not to a certain degree. If you look at the frequency response and impedance chart of Sigma 168. You'll notice the driver starts to roll off sharply just above 100 hz without a cabinet.With the help of your BLH cabinets the bass rolls off around 60hz in your room ..I'm guessing.There's probably not much useable bass below this point.This is where your subs kick in and take over down to 40/45 Hz. Now if you wanted to add more weight to the music. The simplest solution would be to go with sealed powered subs that can do the duty from 60 hz down to the 20 hz range. The real weight of music doesn't kick in till your at 40 Hz or below IMHO. This is when you start to feel the music and not just hear it. I'm pretty sure you'll be set for a long time once you get those subs dialed in properly. |
Louis is a terrific guy. Good thing about buying from him..you can always return the speakers and not be out much money on his 30 day return policy. Maybe those Zu speakers are more your speed. I think they also have a try before you keep policy. It seems like you need to go with a floorstander....What ever the choice. Good luck ..I hope you find what you seek. |
LOL..that's funny Mike. Here's a site that's bursting in info Horn Speakers. It's tough to judge equipment that's not in your room. What ever you listen to try to get it in your home. I know this route can be expensive..but it's the only way to know if it will work for you. I believe your preference in unamplified or amplified music will dictate what direction you move towards also. |
Also while I'm at it... check these speakers out. Orion loudspeaker. They look yummy! I'm still hankering to try this open baffle thing. If they sound anything like planars with dynamics I'm sold! :-) |
Ok I decided to pick up a digital SPL meter and check some in room frequency responses of the FTA-2000. From some of the above comments it makes one think ..that single driver speakers are only made for simple and soft music..though I'm not a rocker.:-) I do like dynamic music with some oomph. So here we begin. The room used is 20x15x9. The speakers are 26 inches from the rear wall and placed along the long wall 8 ft apart.Speakers are towed in with the drivers pointed at my head..dead center.The SPL meter is set 2.8 meters away at the listening position. Equipment used to do these tests is a basic el cheapo Pioneer reciever(maybe $100) and a Denon 900 dvd player. The Pioneer reciever in real world watts,may only be putting out 15 or 20 wpc...just a guess.LOL The speakers are unassisted by subwoofers.I set the SPL meter to C weighting. I set my test volume at 75dB from my listening position.This is what I used through all the test. First test is frequency response from 16hz to 50hz. Each sinewave tone runs for ten seconds. There's pretty much silence at 16hz,17hz,18hz,19hz and 20hz.Basically too low to read with the SPL meter ,which stops at 60dB.So what do you expect from a single 8 inch driver? I will start the chart at 21Hz.I had some trouble getting the 43hz and 44hz readings because they weren't burned on the disc properly. So I omitted them.At 21hz ..which I find nearly impossible to hear.I can only feel the pressure on my inner ear.Too me it's almost like being in a pressurizing cabinet of an airplane. SPL FREQ variations from 75db at 2.8 meters 60dB 21hz -15 63dB 22hz -12 65dB 23hz -10 68dB 24hz -7 70dB 25hz -5 70dB 26hz -5 70dB 27hz -5 71dB 28hz -4 72dB 29hz -3 72dB 30hz -3 73dB 31.5hz -2 73dB 32hz -2 74dB 33hz -1 74dB 34hz -1 75db 35hz -0 75db 36hz -0 75dB 37hz -0 75db 38hz -0 76dB 39hz +1 76db 40hz +1 78dB 41hz +2 79dB 42hz +4 80dB 45hz +5 80dB 46hz +5 79dB 47hz +4 78dB 48hz +3 76dB 49hz +1 75dB 50hz -0 Next test was a 60 second Sinewave sweep from 200hz to 18hz.I set the SPL meter to read for 60 seconds and give me an average SPL over that period. This test revealed an average variance of 1dB at 75 db from 2.8 meters away.The average SPL was 74dB from 200hz to 18hz for 60 seconds.Pretty impressive for a el cheapo reciever and dvd player me thinks.:-)Makes me wonder what I will get when I do the test using the good stuff. I can only think it will improve with better frequency response from the front end equipment. Looks like I have a slight boost in the mid 40hz.Could be just the room interactions..who knows.Not really bad though.I also checked to see what my average listening level is. I don't know how some of you fellows listen past 85dB..which was too much for me to handle.I suspect the average audiophile listens at 70dB on average and maybe a bit lower. I was bored today, so I figured why not play around and see what happens. I really got a kick out of it. Maybe soon I'll check the frequency response from 1000hz up to 20khz and see where I'm at. Who said single drivers don't have punch? LOL Important to note.The only other speakers I've owned or heard that had a freq response similar. Were the Green Mountain Europas.No where near the low freq extention but within their limits exceptional.Anyone that doesn't believe there's a correlation between the less variation in the frequency response of a speaker the more realistic it sounds...haven't heard live music... Or just don't care IMHO. Good listening! |
