2. analog
  3. 1296967713

Sibilance issues with vinyl rig

howdy
I've recently gotten into vinyl, investing quite heavily, and coming away unimpressed and frustrated.
the problem is sibilance...I find some albums almost unbearable, and if not unbearable, not terribly pleasant to listen to. On other albums, there is a sibilant 'cast' - even surface noise, and tick and pops have a hollow, pitched up characteristic to them that is unlike I've experienced listening to other systems. When people say 'vinyl sounds way better than cd's', I wonder what the hell they're talking about, or what it is that I'm doing wrong.
I should list out my system quickly just in case there's some familiarity within the membership and perhaps a quick fix, and also to see where I'm at in this hobby:
Rega Saturn cd player
Modwright swl9.0se pre amp
Cary audio slm 70 mono blocks
Totem model 1's
totem thunder sub
running springs haley power conditioning
harmonic tech cabling throughout
vinyl rig:
vpi scoutmaster with jmw-9 signature tonearm and single flywheel motor upgrade and vpi sds
benz micro ace low output mc cartridge
sim audio lp5.3 phono stage
harmonic tech magic cables (used) between turntable and phono stage, and between the phono stage and Modwright pre (new)...I've noted this as the magic cables are newer than what's in the rest of the system.
The lp5.3 phono stage is used, I'm the third owner
The cartridge was new....the turntable, cartridge and magic cables to the phono stage have about 100-150 hours on them now.
I'm quite happy with the cd playback...the saturn was the best under $5000 player I'd auditioned, save for one, and that is in the company of krell, copland, meridian, etc...so in general the system as a whole performs rather well...and no sibilance issues with cd playback.
I set up the turntable myself, following Michael Fremer's dvd in which he demo'd the setup of a scoutmaster. I do have a nice digital stylus gauge, and have purchased the soundsmith counterintuitive to assist with the difficulty of setting the tracking force/azimuth on this tonearm. I can't say I'm an expert at setup, but in listening there are no other issues (left/right balance, tracking erors, etc), so I figure I'm 90% there.
I've tried every resistive setting on the lp5.3. I've tried lowering the output, but I already need to set the volume at 4-5 out of 10 to get where the volume is equal to what 3 out of 10 provides using cd playback, and it didn't solve my problem anyway (thought the sibilance might be caused overloading the rest of the signal path..btw, the benz has an output of .4mv). I fiddled with vta, and found little if any difference. I meticulously clean my records (most of which are brand new) before playing, put them in rice paper sleeves, and use the requisite record and stylus cleaning brushes...in other words, I'm meticulous and thorough. I listen to a huge variety of music, and have extreme familiarity with some (admittedly not all) of the albums - I know how they should sound...ironically, it's the ones I'm familiar with that bother me the most. I do assume the new components should be broken in by now, and either way, there has been little or no change since the initial setting up.
I've invested a chunk of money time and effort, and expected the vinyl rig to sound at least as good as the cd, but I'm disappointed....would really appreciate any input...help!
josephwol

Showing 5 responses by markd51

markd51
763 posts
 
Yes, I'm seeing the trends as well in regards to VPI Tonearms. Both the noted issues of sibilance, or mistracking, and also the proponents, and naysayers of the brand.

I'm sorry I've never owned a JMW Tonearm to be of highly specific help, but if this was another brand of arm, forumites here would be making the standard recommendations, and that's about all I can do, is apply those for possible answers.

Many have been surprised by the fact that their Stylus, which was thought to be clean, really wasn't. A dry Stylus Brush does little good to properly remove baked on residues. With that said, and if you are not using a product like the White Mr Clean Magic Eraser, I suggest you search the archives here.

Others will suggest your accuracy of VTA, VTF, Azimuth.

One suspect cause I believe may be hampering many VPI owners, is the accuracy of their Cartidge Alignment Tools?
That, and the seeming confusion-debate of what the proper distances of overhang should be for these Arms? And with that said, what tools will be the best choice?

If, there can be misinterpretation with any said Alignment Tools,(Protractors)then I believe no matter ehat else one may try to alleviate sonic problems, their success may not be optimally achieved.

Many here seem to have had very good results with the MintLP Best Protractor, and I have this tool myself.

There is virtually no margin for misinterpretation with this tool. Once it is used properly, you will have no doubt that this tool has improved your sound. I've yet to read about any user who has said it hadn't.

Without knowing your alignment is spot on accurate, the paths to achieving great sound will be a guessing game that may never be resolved.

Other VPI owners will hopefully chime in, that have switched from the VPI Jig to the MintLP Tractor, and can further comment about their findings, and the differences in overhang, and zenith angle results.

When I acquired my own MintLP Tractor, I found I was off by about .5mm by other methods, and some will tell you this is a quite considerable distance to be off, if you are wishing to extract the best sonics from a Cartridge.

The MintLP Tractors are Arm specific, meaning Yip in Hong Kong makes it for your Table-Arm combo. Hope this helps. Mark
markd51
763 posts
 
Jose, I looked back, and didn't see any mention of what your vertical tracking force was? What is it? And how old is the Cartridge?

Generally, the Benz Cartridges are very versatile, superb trackers. I've never owned the new ones with the new micro line stylus, but I suspect Benz Micro didn't take a step backward. Mark
markd51
763 posts
 
I've discussed this issue not only this time around, but before with others, as to why there seems to be no clear cut answer as to why sibilance problems are noted, and have now all of a sudden seem to be commonplace with a JMW Arm.

I don't recall ever reading such in the past, and the JMW seemed always praised as a very good Arm. So what changed?

Years ago, when I was using nothing but MM Cartridges, and some fairly decent AT, and Shure Models, I never seemed to notice much in the way of artifacts, and in truth, I never had a protractor, just those miserably cheap $2 plastic Stylus Alignment Gauges. Never noticed much in the way of break in either with these. They sounded good fresh from the box, and changed little as they got some hours on them.

But enter the MC, and here's where things started to become complicated. The amassing of tools of all sorts, and the OCD setting in.

Even with my own ZYX Airy 3X fresh from the box, I experienced some sibilance on certain tracks, as one example was Tony Bennet spitting a little too much into the Mic on the tune "San Francisco".

It was my error though, erroneously thinking I could follow some other poster's recommendations of setting VTF to 1.86g right off the bat, with a fresh out of the box Airy 3 Cartridge. Increasing VTF to an even 2.0g solved that problem when the cartridge was new.

And as others here have taught me, to not ever assume what might work for others, especially as an optimum VTF setting, will then optimally work for you.

These MC's will need some break in time, and about all I can add, is analog is a medium which of course is not plug and play. Something may be assumed to be correct, such as a Stylus Force Gauge, but can be something that is overlooked, and in error. One needs to confirm accuracy of such tools, to at least know if you are setting the Cartridge at say 2.0g, that it is truly indeed 2.0g, and not some huge error, like actually being 1.5g.

That although one should trust their ears to optimum settings of VTF, one still should know accurately that they are in the ballpark range of VTF per manufacturer's given specs. I would bet many have been fooled with less than accurate set up tools.

This is just one example I cite. There can be others as well. Take VTA as another example. I too have been fooled by thinking I was at a neutral VTA, and was actually quite far from it. While not all cartridges may optimally work at neutral VTA, it should be a baseline from which to go from.
Mark
markd51
763 posts
 
Sure Bill, I agree, get rid of it, go for gold, buy a TriPlanar, a Talea, an SME V, Graham Phantom, or better yet, should he buy one of the Arms-Tables you sell?

I'm running a $3450 list ZYX Airy 3X SB Cartridge on what;s considered a POS AQ PT-9 Arm, that cost me a whopping $374 on closeout from Elusive Disc, and have no issues. None at all.

Am I extracting from this Cartridge the sonics that a TriPlanar Arm could extract> I just might be very close.
No, it doesn't have VTA on the fly, should I need such?
If I do, then I think I've either gotten too anal, too involved with worry, and then maybe it's either time to yank the plug on analog, or yank the .357 and blow my brains out.

The wonderment I have, is how can an Arm, costing 5 times the price of my lowly AQ Arm exhibit such problems?

Is it a mis-understanding, and lack of knowledge to set up a Unipivot Arm?

I've noted that even in the past, that fellas like Doug D seeming to have issues with certain cartridges on the Unipivot.

Is this then a flawed design? ISn't the Shroder, Morch, and some other highly regarded arms, including the ones you sell Unipivots?

Then, may I ask, what sets these revered Arms apart from the VPI JMW?

As I would fathom an educated guess, Jim Davis at MusicDirect is probably the largest VPI Dealer in the country, probably sells more VPI Tables-Arms in one month, than the remainder of dealers do in the entire USA. How is it, that VPI, and places like Musicdirect have continued success?

No company is perfect, and perhaps the one major gripe I could find with a company like VPI, since they're relatively small, is the lack of elaborate instructions-manuals for their equipment. IMO. they probably could be better.

I would welcome-encourage some intelligent reasons why an Arm such as the Hadcock is superior?

Please don't take this as any slam, or knocking an Arm like the Hadcock. From what I've seen, although I've never sampled-heard such an Arm, it does appear to be very well made.

Note that I'm not either looking to win friends, nor make enemies with this post, and my thoughts Bill. I wish to learn, as others do. What makes the JMW Arm a totally worthless piece of hardware, can you elaborate?

I'd like to continue to use this forum as a source, and trade of information, and accurate knowledge. Mark
markd51
763 posts
 
About the only observations, and conclusions I can come to is this:

Analog can be a PITA when there's a problem. It can be a major hassle isolating the weak links, or where the problems are originating at? It can amount to a lot of time invested, and a lot of hair pulling.

In regards to the possibility of two Benz Cartridges in a row being bad, I'll agree, that it is highly unlikely, but the only way to ever know for sure is to run those two cartridges in another set up.

In regards to who is right, and who is wrong, that may be something none of us can clearly determine, as we are not physically present. Whether any of our influences would be a helpful factor in the set up, and alleviation of such anomalies being experienced is also an unknown?

If I have seemed to disagree with any one poster in this thread, and I'm specifically referring to mr Bill, those were truthfully not my intentions to disagree, but to offer some possible helpful tips from the relatively small experience I have, nothing more.

I don;t think anyone will disagree that a Unipivot Arm is harder to set up versus other solid mounted designs.

When something like this goes wrong, everything becomes suspect. And when all parameters, and avenues have been explored, all stones turned, and still no cigar, then I have to agree with Bill 100%, it is time to move on, and have yourself something that makes you happy. Mark


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