Shindo and synergistic components

I have just discovered this very interesting thread.
Now it is 11 years old, and the market changed a lot.
Now there are many newer speakers like Zu Audio, Living Voice, Blumenhofer, but also the Verity Audio Leonore, designed for smaller tube amps.
Shindo made some new amps, too.

Hatari, do you still have the system you have described here? What is you long time experience on it? Or did you changed it? What is new? Why? What does it better or in a different way?

Now I stepwise complete my Shindo system from the source on, had a Platine and Nouvelle Verdier for a long time, a Shindo Meursault and SPU with A23 Hommage T1 as well, and just purchased a Giscours.
The next steps will be an amp and speakers, but I don't know which way I should go. Modern speakers, Altec horns, single driver units, all of these have their weaknesses...
Until now I listen with an active studio main monitor, a big three way, neutral, very detailed and correct speaker, even this is a good match with the Giscours, but I would like to try the "whole Shindo magic".

Thanks for any input, advice and information, or just your subjective experience.

Having gone through some various things...knowing what I seek...my end reference being 1/2 track recordings made on my tape machine....I think the Ayre's are keepers...again to me changing speakers just to gain more efficiency doesn't make much sense to me....most speakers are more efficient simply due by, for a given size, sacrificing low frequency extension...there being some laws of physics at work here...in spite of what some folks advocate....thus I wish to consider pre amp performance...not to tune stuff to fit certain pieces of gear...

John

I own the Vosne-Romanee. It is balanced. Checking with Don is a great idea. He's an excellent dealer and an absolutely terrfic guy.

John: I think the Vosnee Romanee preamp is balanced and is meant to be great. Maybe Bsal is right, or maybe not. You might love the combination of Shindo Pre with the the great MX-R amps - I'm sure you will. I wouldn't trade even think of trading in your amps for the time being, just focus on the analogue. Try the Shindo amps out in time.

I've ordered the Masetto, the one below the Romanee as I don't need balanced. If you live near a dealer, I'd take in the MX-Rs and try what you can. I think Don Better is a Shindo and Ayre dealer - so you might want to start there (just my recollection, could be wrong).

Best wishes

Buy the most expensive Shindo pre you can afford. But be warned that the Shindo gear is so good you might very well end up selling your MX-Rs to get Shindo amps, which will probably mean selling your Rockports to get higher sensitivity speakers. The madness never ends . . .

Folks....I have some Ayre MX-R monoblocks...which of course are balanced...and in looking at improving the analog side of my system it has been suggested that I consider a Shindo preamp....the would be driving Rockport Meraks/Sheritan II and Wilson Watch Dog 2 sub....anyone have some experience or thoughts on this set up...the other pre amps I might consider are the VTL 7.5, Ref 3 and the upcoming Ayre KX-R...??

thanks in advance
John

Eril, your reply was very helpful, thanks.

The Apetite was a 13 watt integrated discontinued about 2-3 years ago. Was about $4000-5000 then.
I wrote to several people who had it. They said:
The Apetite doesn't have the
harmonic complexity of the upper models but is really excellent.

4 pieces of small 6072 as preamp and driver tubes,and 4 pieces of CV-428 ( on tubes noted 256M made in England ).The E80CC's can be found in various tube shops and generally sell for $50 each and their are two. The CV428 can be had from Parts Connection at $10 each. The CV428 is not common but inexpensive when
found. All these tubes should last many years since Shindo runs his circuits conservatively.
I really enjoyed the Apetite, it's very energetic and lively with incredible punch and articulation.

Hope this helps

I hope this isn't off topic, but has anyone heard or heard of the Shindo Apetite, integrated amp? It's not on the Shindo website and there seems to be very little info about it. Thanks.

Jeffrey: yes on the mono, no on the dual MC (not possible). The step up will definitely be in the cards when the second arm is set up. Thanks for your help and input on this.

Cheers

Congrats Hatari. You made great choices. Did you order the Masseto with a mono switch? dual MC inputs? if you still have the MM input, i strongly recommend trying the A23 step up (matched to your cart, of course). it really makes a big difference, IMO.

Congratulations on your purchase.

I've heard the Masseto and its awesome. Let us know how it goes when you receive your stuff from Ken. I'm always interested in the choice of tubes Ken uses for each piece.

The EMT 997 arm is pretty good. It has the advantage that you can use a larger variety of cartridges than the Shindo arm that needs a SPU A. For a more Shindo feel, you could mount a Shindo SPU in the G body.

That's awesome Hatari. I hear the Masseto is incredible. Maybe one day i will upgrade my Aurieges. Let us know the new amp sounds. .

I started this post b/c I was looking for a higher powered amp than Shindo makes. As Rchau correctly pointed out, the new Corton Charlemagne 80 (75wpc) solves the problem.

I bought the Masseto and the Corton Charlemagne 80! Delivery in a few weeks. I do believe in synergy, so it was only to address the "power" issue that I sought alternatives. I decided against the Shindo/Garrard 301 - and went with a Raven AC. I will have two arms set up on that in time - one more modern (Phantom etc.), one with a more "Shindo-esque" feel to it (Mersault, EMT 997), both with appropriate carts.

Cheers and thanks for the discussion.

The Shindo SPU is $3250 and a rebuild from an existing SPU-A s $2850.

The Shindo SPU uses a standard Ortofon mount so any arm with an Ortofon bayonet should be able to mount the cartridge. You must bear in mind that the SPU-A mount is shorter than the SPU-G. You may have to modify the arm mounting to get the right overhang on mnay set-ups.

Also, Shindo is probably going to stop selling complete Shindo SPUs without a Shindo 301 table. The SPU-A bodies are getting scarce. Ortofon will stop making SPU-A pretty soon. I have my order in for the last run. You can however acquire a SPU-A body and have Shindo rebuild them into a Shindo SPU.

Anyone know the price of the Shindo modified SPU? It would be cool if you could put this cartridge on a resonable priced arm and table (say sub $4,000 all in) which would have similar sonic qualities of the Shindo Garrard 301. Anyone try to build a poor mans SG 301?

The A23 transformer is a phono step-up transformer. In this case, the one Aronsss uses is the one optimized for a Denon or EMT cartridge. The stock transformers in Shindo preamps are optimized for use with the Shindo modified SPU or other really low impedance cartridges. I owned the A23 transformer for a about a month and it was fantastic with an EMT JSD5 cartridge.

Shindo makes an outboard step up transformer called the Arome. Similar concept but also optimized for an SPU.

Aronsss,
What exactly does the Auditorium 23 transformer do? Is this the same as the Shindo transformer?

The 103R is an very good match with the Monbrison and outstanding when you add the Auditorium 23 transformer ---just like the boys at 6 moons said. And I don't worry about it with my 9 and 6 year olds.

Timothy -

I am thnking about the Haut Brion although I am quite satisfied with my Quicksilver Triodes. What is the sonic character of the Haut Brion? And did you try out any other speaker cable (i.e. Kubala Sosna)?

hey hatari... i agree with you that the parsifals really open up and sound much much better w/ more power. i had 42w/ch and the sound was just too flat. it sounded gorgeous, but didn't have that energy and pop. the canary 160s in triode provide plenty of pop, energy, excitement along w/ that magic. i owned a cj prem 140, and thought it was really an average sounding amp. i sort of have written off cj gear as just not for me. to dry, recessed midrange, which i think wouldn't sound so great w/ the parsifals, which already tend to sound laid back to me. i personally think you want an amp w/ a pronounced, front row presentation vs. the full landscape...

Timothy: where did you try the CJ LP70 with Shindo... which pre was used? Very interesting combo. The LP70 is roughly same power as the Corton Charlemagne 80, at half the price point. A very interesting, but risky, proposition (in that I can't hear it unless I've bought it).

Bwhite: I"m in touch with Matt, but can't go down there in the near future unfortunately.

It is the Corton Charlemagne that are under consideration for the Verity. There are three dealers carrying Shindo and Verity in the US it seems.

Hatari, San Francisco is home to a dealer who represents both Verity and Shindo. Contact Matt at Pitch Perfect Audio. While you've already received some excellent suggestions in this thread, I am sure Matt's experience will really help you determine the best fit for the Verity's.

Plus, I think he'll be receiving the Corton Charlemagne 80 mono blocks some time soon (he may already have them).

Lokie: wasn't meant to be a criticism, just include a "sigh" in front - a statement of fact indeed.

I think Verity showed their product with the pyramids b/c it's new and sounds decent. They still have 50w VPAs in their own listening room (along with Wavac) - all lower "power" options. They showed their Lohengrin with Artemis SETs I believe (15-20wpc?).

Timothy_m: Fidelios are certainly easier to drive, but still good to see 20W doing it for you. I've been spending time with Julien on ideas, tweaks, room placement - a true (and patient) gentleman; and I've certainly been in touch with Jonathan (another gentleman). Now, what pre and amp did you get? What did it replace?

Thanks

Streetdaddy... I'll email you directly to further discuss my room problems.

Hatari... We're getting back the point I made earlier about the speaker/amp package. The fact that Verity goes to shows with 200 watt solid state mono amps should be an indication of how the speaker is designed and tuned. I'm sure I’m not telling you anything you don't already know, but, you shouldn't criticize Shindo for not offering high powered amps considering the nature of their product line. I personally think Shindo has some nice valued components in their lower and middle range. The catch is, you have to have effecient speakers to use it. It is what it is.

LOL Timothy. I think you'll find Verity owners as being pretty satisfied and building their systems around the speakers... but hey, Shindo seems to have it's own addictive personalities. Too bad you need to fork out min $20k to get shindos to work with the Parsifals.

Cheers

Lokie,
How much do you toe in your living voices? I have heard they liked to be spaced out very wide. There is a relatively inexpensive Shindo amp called the Montille that would work really well with the LV's if you wanted to have an all Shindo setup.

You may want to put the Dodd 120 on your list. I have never heard it but alot of Eggleston owners like this amp. Like the Verity's, Eggleston's are very revealing and I think they have a more difficult load. Just a thought.

Oh, the problems of the rich and famous... good luck and happy listening.

I have, but don't want the new pyramids. Would do VPA + PMA, but that adds up to about $6k more than the Shindo option... not sure it's worth it.

I'm also interested in something off the beaten track, as Nagra is the easy match I think. Great review of the Class D MPAs in TAS this month - but I'm just not loving them, would prefer an easy maintenance tube setup instead.

Cheers

Nice speakers. Have you considered Nagra?

Thanks Hatari. I hope this isn't too much of a diversion, but has anyone had the opportunity to hear the Shindo Richebourg 300B PP amp? I don't belive it's produced anymore, but I've been curious about it for a while and haven't seen much written about it.

Corton-Charlemagne 80 is a different amp and new, so I've heard and is 75 or 80 wpc. Best to confirm details with a dealer.

I thought the Corton-Charlemagne was a 25wpc design. Is it being changed?

Verity Parsifals - not an easy load (not difficult either), but need, in my experience, 50W as a minimum. So far they sound better with even more power. They are 89db efficient, and drop to 4ohms as far as I know. With power, they become more energetic, even at similar listening levels.

I've been tweaking a great deal lately: speaker placement, isolation, dedicated AC lines. All have been incrementally superb improvements. If I'm doing pre-amp, then might as well do amp and get move on from my Levinson integrated (which is pretty good).

I tend to agree with the notion that amps are not the best value when trying to improve your system. I do allot of project management with my work and we use the term "critical path." What is the most important task that needs to get done. That concept is the same when building a system. Personally, my critical path are things like speaker placement, room tweaking, power delivery, cabling, and shelving. I think alot of audiophiles think amps are the critical path when there are so many other cheaper and more effective "tasks" than buying an expensive amp.

One of the qualities of the LV, as with most effecicient speakers with benign loads, is the flexibility it gives you in the amp department. The Mahis are $1500 used and seem to be a good match. Would music on an $8,000 amp sound 4 times or even twice as good on the LV’s... no, not in my opinion. I frankly think I would have to concentrate pretty hard to tell the difference.

I'm not trying to plug the Mahi's or LV but just making the point that I like to think of the speakers and amp almost as one component. For example, because of the qualities of Theil speakers being very revealing and requiring lots of power, I think you would need a pretty expensive amp to mate with them. So the "package" of amp and speaker would be relatively expensive.

BTW, Hatari what speakers do you have?

Lokie: that Moscode sounds like a great option to try out. No retail markup and the ability to home audition - sounds perfect.

The new Shindo Corton Charlemagne is an expensive amp ($14k) and puts out 75wpc. I just wonder whether there's an amp that works with the Masetto (single ended output only) that costs ($5-$10k). I've spent a great deal of time auditioning, but have also been reading those studies that under controlled conditions high quality amps are generally indistinguishable. I think this is increasingly the case as SS and tubes seem to converge in sound.

I'm not opening a discussion on that point - it's just background to my question and thread.

Cheers

Eril,
Can't help you on the mentioned amps.

One amp that I would like to hear with a Shindo Pre is the 200 watt Moscode 401.

I'd like an Aurieges L or Monbrison with a good SS power amp. Class A - Pass Labs XA30.5, Clayton - or maybe with the Audio Sector Patek.
Anyone tried these or other Class A or Gainclones with Shindo pre-amps?
Thanks

I'm on the wrong side of the oil trade - being a consumer of barrels, not an owner of barrels!

Thanks, I agree. I am considering the Masetto and the new 75wpc amp they have coming out. A new TT is in the cards, but the Shindo/Garrard is definitely not (@20k, yikes).

For me to warrant that kind of additional expense I would have to have a first class listening room and a world class analogue rig for which I have neither. I also think you would want to match all that with one of the higher end Shindo amps. That's just not the kind of money I want to spend on a system. But you may be an oil baron and if the Shindo sound is your cup of tea, I would say, go for it.

Too expensive for my blood. I do hear that with each step up there is a discernable improvement.

Aronsss/Patrickamory/Lokie: did you try the Masetto or Vosne Romanee? Just curious if you thought the step up (ignoring price points for the time being) was warranted in the performance of the line and phono stages, respectively?

Thanks all for the input.

I have the Monbrsion matched with Quicksilver (6C33C) Triodes that are 50 watts per channel and Merlin VSM-MX speakers. The Monbrison is a tremendous preamp. Extremely musical and accurate. Art Dudley is right on. The phono section is also stellar. I was fortunate enough to try a number of top amp/preamp combinations in my home. The Shindo gear is just exemplary (you just have to remember you cannot drive more than a 3 meter IC with them). The Quickies have both sweetness and drive. I am having a very good time.........

I have the Shindo Aurieges (line stage only) connected to MA6500 driving the B&W 803D speakers. Didnt go for the version of the preamp with phono stage as I have the Audio Research PH5. The Shindo totally outclassed the builtin preamp on the MAC.
Recently acquired a pair of Quicksilver v4 monoblocs (120W) from a fellow Audiogon member to replace the MA6500. Really like the Shindo/Quicksilver combination...the system now sings, very musical...love it.

The Mahis are not balanced and I have never tried to mix the two. My suspicion is that they would work fine with other balanced components.

I bought the Shindo purely on spec.

I really like the LV IBX speakers. One word I would describe them as, is "fun". They are very lively and dynamic. They have the great quality of being both detailed/revealing and very listenable. I have had some trouble placing them but I have room that is problematic. My placement is a triangle of 12' and 2' off the side and back wall.

This is a relatively new system and room and completely different than my last system which consisted of a 600 watt Mac and Eggleston speakers. I like the direction I'm going, especially, the Shindo. Depending on if I can get the LV's tweaked out exactly the way I want them, I will probably get a Shindo amp (Cortese??). I think the two brands are a good synergistic match.

If I eventually decide on a different kind of speaker which would be a better fit for my room, for ex. a non-efficient monitor, I will definitely keep the Monbrison and match with an appropriate amp/speaker combo.